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Aaargh!

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Cycling Equipment
Published
6 January 2007
Last activity
10 January 2007
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  1. Aaargh!

    By exhaustive testing, I've just determined that if you drop a Park
    tension gauge onto a concrete floor from a height of six feet, the
    gauge will begin to read ~250 pounds of tension instead of the ~190
    pounds that it used to read when applied to a spoke hanging from the
    ceiling and supporting ~190 pounds of weights.

    Since it snowed all day, I went ahead and tested my new weight rig, a
    63-kg weighted wooden platform that hangs from a spoke attached to the
    ceiling and lets me add 110 kg of water to a plastic trash barrel.

    The damaged gauge produces a nice, smooth, utterly useless curve that
    parallels the Park calibration chart, suggesting that something bent
    when it hit the floor.

    I'm tempted to fiddle with the adjustment screw on the gauge, but I'll
    probably just buy a new gauge and start all over again.

    Oh, well, it could have been a $300 model . . .

    Aaargh!

    Carl Fogel

  2. In article <[email hidden]>,

    Quoted message said:

    Aaargh!

    By exhaustive testing, I've just determined that if you drop a Park
    tension gauge onto a concrete floor from a height of six feet, the
    gauge will begin to read ~250 pounds of tension instead of the ~190
    pounds that it used to read when applied to a spoke hanging from the
    ceiling and supporting ~190 pounds of weights.

    Ouch! But your post raises an interesting point (or at least implies
    it) that the bending stiffness of the spoke is negligible in
    measurements made with a spoke tensiometer.

  3. <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Aaargh!

    By exhaustive testing, I've just determined that if you drop a Park
    tension gauge onto a concrete floor from a height of six feet, the
    gauge will begin to read ~250 pounds of tension instead of the ~190
    pounds that it used to read when applied to a spoke hanging from the
    ceiling and supporting ~190 pounds of weights.

    Since it snowed all day, I went ahead and tested my new weight rig, a
    63-kg weighted wooden platform that hangs from a spoke attached to the
    ceiling and lets me add 110 kg of water to a plastic trash barrel.

    The damaged gauge produces a nice, smooth, utterly useless curve that
    parallels the Park calibration chart, suggesting that something bent
    when it hit the floor.

    I'm tempted to fiddle with the adjustment screw on the gauge, but I'll
    probably just buy a new gauge and start all over again.

    Oh, well, it could have been a $300 model . . .

    Aaargh!

    Carl Fogel

    I think that you can send it back to Park and have them recalibrate it.

    Chas.

  4. <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Aaargh!

    By exhaustive testing, I've just determined that if you drop a Park
    tension gauge onto a concrete floor from a height of six feet, the
    gauge will begin to read ~250 pounds of tension instead of the ~190
    pounds that it used to read when applied to a spoke hanging from the
    ceiling and supporting ~190 pounds of weights.

    Since it snowed all day, I went ahead and tested my new weight rig, a
    63-kg weighted wooden platform that hangs from a spoke attached to the
    ceiling and lets me add 110 kg of water to a plastic trash barrel.

    The damaged gauge produces a nice, smooth, utterly useless curve that
    parallels the Park calibration chart, suggesting that something bent
    when it hit the floor.

    I'm tempted to fiddle with the adjustment screw on the gauge, but I'll
    probably just buy a new gauge and start all over again.

    Oh, well, it could have been a $300 model . . .

    Aaargh!

    Carl Fogel

    Well since it is already bent, can't you recalibrate it yourself?
    I mean you did hook up a test rig a while back. It looks like it has a small
    screw and nut affair for adusting something on the tool.
    Of course it is hard to know if you got it right without comparing to
    something though.

  5. Quoted message said:

    Aaargh!

    By exhaustive testing, I've just determined that if you drop a Park
    tension gauge onto a concrete floor from a height of six feet, the
    gauge will begin to read ~250 pounds of tension instead of the ~190
    pounds that it used to read when applied to a spoke hanging from the
    ceiling and supporting ~190 pounds of weights.

    Since it snowed all day, I went ahead and tested my new weight rig, a
    63-kg weighted wooden platform that hangs from a spoke attached to the
    ceiling and lets me add 110 kg of water to a plastic trash barrel.

    The damaged gauge produces a nice, smooth, utterly useless curve that
    parallels the Park calibration chart, suggesting that something bent
    when it hit the floor.

    I'm tempted to fiddle with the adjustment screw on the gauge, but I'll
    probably just buy a new gauge and start all over again.

    Oh, well, it could have been a $300 model . . .

    Aaargh!

    I suspect you bent the pivot bolt. It's a 7/64 hex and it should be
    easy to find a replacement in any decent hardware store/big box home
    center.

  6. Earl Bollinger said:

    <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Aaargh!

    By exhaustive testing, I've just determined that if you drop a Park
    tension gauge onto a concrete floor from a height of six feet, the
    gauge will begin to read ~250 pounds of tension instead of the ~190
    pounds that it used to read when applied to a spoke hanging from the
    ceiling and supporting ~190 pounds of weights.

    Since it snowed all day, I went ahead and tested my new weight rig, a
    63-kg weighted wooden platform that hangs from a spoke attached to the
    ceiling and lets me add 110 kg of water to a plastic trash barrel.

    The damaged gauge produces a nice, smooth, utterly useless curve that
    parallels the Park calibration chart, suggesting that something bent
    when it hit the floor.

    I'm tempted to fiddle with the adjustment screw on the gauge, but I'll
    probably just buy a new gauge and start all over again.

    Oh, well, it could have been a $300 model . . .

    Aaargh!

    Carl Fogel

    Well since it is already bent, can't you recalibrate it yourself?
    I mean you did hook up a test rig a while back. It looks like it has a small
    screw and nut affair for adusting something on the tool.
    Of course it is hard to know if you got it right without comparing to
    something though.

    Dear Earl,

    In effect, that's what I did last night.

    After dropping the gauge on the floor, I laboriously hung known
    weights from a spoke attached to the ceiling and applied the gauge,
    getting a nice data curve for tensions from 138 to 383 pounds.

    But the gauge reads ~60 lbs low for a ~190 lb load (smaller error at
    lower tensions, larger error at higher tensions--the graph is a curve,
    not linear).

    So I'd have to heave a lot of weights to get anything as good as the
    Park chart for a good gauge--and that would only tell me what a 2.0
    round steel spoke does on my damaged gauge, not the popular 1.8 or any
    of the other less common gauges on the two-sided Park chart.

    I thought about bending what looks like the damaged central post back
    to right angles, but that may not even be the problem--whatever went
    wrong is likely to be so small that it's hard to see, and the post is
    not much off true.

    In a fit of late-night foolishness, I tried adjusting the screw to see
    if I could the gauge to match a second round of weights. I put the
    whole awkward rig back together, cautiously turned the adjuster by the
    minimum half-turn allowed, and eventually got the gauge to read right
    at the low end of the scale.

    Encouraged, I started pouring 10 kg of water into my trash barrel and
    checking the results. Apparently, whatever's bent doesn't have a
    linear effect as things rotate. I kept adjusting, hoping that I'd find
    that the initial adjustment had been a bit off, but by the time I got
    up to about 300 lbs, 100 lbs short of the top of the Park chart, I'd
    run out of travel on the long adjuster screw.

    After heaving water buckets all night, two aspirin are starting to
    help, but I'm ready to reconsider buying that 300-lb set of weights
    rusting at the junkyard. Speken Metal wanted 35 cents per pound, and
    I'd have to haul them out of the snow to my car, drive them over to
    the weighing station, unload them and set them on the scale (even
    though the weights are clearly marked!), load them back into the car,
    and then lug them down into my basement.

    One the one hand, the weights--after all that donkey-work--would then
    be a lot easier and quicker to move on and off the test rig than
    pouring buckets of water into a barrel and then draining it afterward.

    On the other hand, it's a silly one-time procedure, and the barrel and
    water are nearly free, much like cheap, unskilled labor. (Unless, of
    course, the cheap, unskilled labor drops the gauge from up near the
    ceiling, in which case a new gauge may be needed and everything has to
    be repeated.)

    Typing is a lot easier than testing.

    Cheers,

    Carl Fogel

  7. <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Earl Bollinger said:

    <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Aaargh!

    By exhaustive testing, I've just determined that if you drop a Park
    tension gauge onto a concrete floor from a height of six feet, the
    gauge will begin to read ~250 pounds of tension instead of the ~190
    pounds that it used to read when applied to a spoke hanging from the
    ceiling and supporting ~190 pounds of weights.

    Since it snowed all day, I went ahead and tested my new weight rig, a
    63-kg weighted wooden platform that hangs from a spoke attached to the
    ceiling and lets me add 110 kg of water to a plastic trash barrel.

    The damaged gauge produces a nice, smooth, utterly useless curve that
    parallels the Park calibration chart, suggesting that something bent
    when it hit the floor.

    I'm tempted to fiddle with the adjustment screw on the gauge, but I'll
    probably just buy a new gauge and start all over again.

    Oh, well, it could have been a $300 model . . .

    Aaargh!

    Carl Fogel

    Well since it is already bent, can't you recalibrate it yourself?
    I mean you did hook up a test rig a while back. It looks like it has a
    small
    screw and nut affair for adusting something on the tool.
    Of course it is hard to know if you got it right without comparing to
    something though.

    Dear Earl,

    In effect, that's what I did last night.

    After dropping the gauge on the floor, I laboriously hung known
    weights from a spoke attached to the ceiling and applied the gauge,
    getting a nice data curve for tensions from 138 to 383 pounds.

    But the gauge reads ~60 lbs low for a ~190 lb load (smaller error at
    lower tensions, larger error at higher tensions--the graph is a curve,
    not linear).

    So I'd have to heave a lot of weights to get anything as good as the
    Park chart for a good gauge--and that would only tell me what a 2.0
    round steel spoke does on my damaged gauge, not the popular 1.8 or any
    of the other less common gauges on the two-sided Park chart.

    I thought about bending what looks like the damaged central post back
    to right angles, but that may not even be the problem--whatever went
    wrong is likely to be so small that it's hard to see, and the post is
    not much off true.

    In a fit of late-night foolishness, I tried adjusting the screw to see
    if I could the gauge to match a second round of weights. I put the
    whole awkward rig back together, cautiously turned the adjuster by the
    minimum half-turn allowed, and eventually got the gauge to read right
    at the low end of the scale.

    Encouraged, I started pouring 10 kg of water into my trash barrel and
    checking the results. Apparently, whatever's bent doesn't have a
    linear effect as things rotate. I kept adjusting, hoping that I'd find
    that the initial adjustment had been a bit off, but by the time I got
    up to about 300 lbs, 100 lbs short of the top of the Park chart, I'd
    run out of travel on the long adjuster screw.

    After heaving water buckets all night, two aspirin are starting to
    help, but I'm ready to reconsider buying that 300-lb set of weights
    rusting at the junkyard. Speken Metal wanted 35 cents per pound, and
    I'd have to haul them out of the snow to my car, drive them over to
    the weighing station, unload them and set them on the scale (even
    though the weights are clearly marked!), load them back into the car,
    and then lug them down into my basement.

    One the one hand, the weights--after all that donkey-work--would then
    be a lot easier and quicker to move on and off the test rig than
    pouring buckets of water into a barrel and then draining it afterward.

    On the other hand, it's a silly one-time procedure, and the barrel and
    water are nearly free, much like cheap, unskilled labor. (Unless, of
    course, the cheap, unskilled labor drops the gauge from up near the
    ceiling, in which case a new gauge may be needed and everything has to
    be repeated.)

    Typing is a lot easier than testing.

    Cheers,

    Carl Fogel

    Aww man, major bummer.
    I was hoping it might have been easier than it looks.

  8. Tim McNamara said:

    In article <[email hidden]>,

    Quoted message said:

    Aaargh!

    By exhaustive testing, I've just determined that if you drop a Park
    tension gauge onto a concrete floor from a height of six feet, the
    gauge will begin to read ~250 pounds of tension instead of the ~190
    pounds that it used to read when applied to a spoke hanging from the
    ceiling and supporting ~190 pounds of weights.

    Ouch! But your post raises an interesting point (or at least implies
    it) that the bending stiffness of the spoke is negligible in
    measurements made with a spoke tensiometer.

    Dear Tim,

    Your comment reminded me that I'd never looked into the DT Swiss
    tension gauge calibration data.

    The deflection and tension for all the different kinds of DT spokes
    are charted at the bottom of this PDF:

    http://www.dtswiss.com/data/files/MAN_EN_51202133804.pdf

    Let's look at the first three columns, the Champion line of 1.8, 2.0,
    and 2.34 mm spokes.

    The DT gauge measures "indirectly" (see the directions near the top of
    the PDF), so things can get confusing.

    But I think that the chart at the bottom of the PDF shows that spoke
    thickness affects deflection significantly in the short span being
    measured.

    For spoke tensions from 300 to 1800 Newtons (68 to 405 pounds), here's
    the range of millimeter deflection:

    spoke |---deflection---|
    dia 300n 1800n range
    1.80 0.68 2.31 1.63
    2.00 1.18 2.68 1.45
    2.34 2.09 3.45 1.36

    The result of the "indirect" measurement is that the thin 1.8 spoke
    starts at a lower point on the scale than the thicker 2.0 spoke (0.68
    instead of 1.18), but the thinner spoke bends further under the same
    force for the same range of spoke tension (1.63 mm instead of only
    1.45 mm).

    I may be mistaken. The more I look at that DT page, the less I
    understand how it works and what the table describes--I get confused
    about what moves from where. Maybe someone will look at the PDF and
    figure out differently, but it looks to me as if the spoke thickness
    affects the deflection significantly in the short spoke span.

    I expect that the DT gauge works quite well, no matter how ignorant
    the user is, since you just slap it on a spoke, zero as directed, read
    the gauge, and look up the tension, preferably without dropping the
    gauge six feet onto a concrete floor.

    Cheers,

    Carl Fogel

  9. Quoted message said:

    Aaargh!

    By exhaustive testing, I've just determined that if you drop a Park
    tension gauge onto a concrete floor from a height of six feet, the
    gauge will begin to read ~250 pounds of tension instead of the ~190
    pounds that it used to read when applied to a spoke hanging from the
    ceiling and supporting ~190 pounds of weights.

    Since it snowed all day, I went ahead and tested my new weight rig, a
    63-kg weighted wooden platform that hangs from a spoke attached to the
    ceiling and lets me add 110 kg of water to a plastic trash barrel.

    The damaged gauge produces a nice, smooth, utterly useless curve that
    parallels the Park calibration chart, suggesting that something bent
    when it hit the floor.

    I'm tempted to fiddle with the adjustment screw on the gauge, but I'll
    probably just buy a new gauge and start all over again.

    Oh, well, it could have been a $300 model . . .

    Aaargh!

    See if Park will attempt a repair. Worth a call to find out.

    Or, you just subtract 60 from whatever it says.

    Ron

  10. Earl Bollinger said:

    <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Earl Bollinger said:

    <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...
    > Aaargh!
    >
    > By exhaustive testing, I've just determined that if you drop a Park
    > tension gauge onto a concrete floor from a height of six feet, the
    > gauge will begin to read ~250 pounds of tension instead of the ~190
    > pounds that it used to read when applied to a spoke hanging from the
    > ceiling and supporting ~190 pounds of weights.
    >
    > Since it snowed all day, I went ahead and tested my new weight rig, a
    > 63-kg weighted wooden platform that hangs from a spoke attached to the
    > ceiling and lets me add 110 kg of water to a plastic trash barrel.
    >
    > The damaged gauge produces a nice, smooth, utterly useless curve that
    > parallels the Park calibration chart, suggesting that something bent
    > when it hit the floor.
    >
    > I'm tempted to fiddle with the adjustment screw on the gauge, but I'll
    > probably just buy a new gauge and start all over again.
    >
    > Oh, well, it could have been a $300 model . . .
    >
    > Aaargh!
    >
    > Carl Fogel

    Well since it is already bent, can't you recalibrate it yourself?
    I mean you did hook up a test rig a while back. It looks like it has a
    small
    screw and nut affair for adusting something on the tool.
    Of course it is hard to know if you got it right without comparing to
    something though.

    Dear Earl,

    In effect, that's what I did last night.

    After dropping the gauge on the floor, I laboriously hung known
    weights from a spoke attached to the ceiling and applied the gauge,
    getting a nice data curve for tensions from 138 to 383 pounds.

    But the gauge reads ~60 lbs low for a ~190 lb load (smaller error at
    lower tensions, larger error at higher tensions--the graph is a curve,
    not linear).

    So I'd have to heave a lot of weights to get anything as good as the
    Park chart for a good gauge--and that would only tell me what a 2.0
    round steel spoke does on my damaged gauge, not the popular 1.8 or any
    of the other less common gauges on the two-sided Park chart.

    I thought about bending what looks like the damaged central post back
    to right angles, but that may not even be the problem--whatever went
    wrong is likely to be so small that it's hard to see, and the post is
    not much off true.

    In a fit of late-night foolishness, I tried adjusting the screw to see
    if I could the gauge to match a second round of weights. I put the
    whole awkward rig back together, cautiously turned the adjuster by the
    minimum half-turn allowed, and eventually got the gauge to read right
    at the low end of the scale.

    Encouraged, I started pouring 10 kg of water into my trash barrel and
    checking the results. Apparently, whatever's bent doesn't have a
    linear effect as things rotate. I kept adjusting, hoping that I'd find
    that the initial adjustment had been a bit off, but by the time I got
    up to about 300 lbs, 100 lbs short of the top of the Park chart, I'd
    run out of travel on the long adjuster screw.

    After heaving water buckets all night, two aspirin are starting to
    help, but I'm ready to reconsider buying that 300-lb set of weights
    rusting at the junkyard. Speken Metal wanted 35 cents per pound, and
    I'd have to haul them out of the snow to my car, drive them over to
    the weighing station, unload them and set them on the scale (even
    though the weights are clearly marked!), load them back into the car,
    and then lug them down into my basement.

    One the one hand, the weights--after all that donkey-work--would then
    be a lot easier and quicker to move on and off the test rig than
    pouring buckets of water into a barrel and then draining it afterward.

    On the other hand, it's a silly one-time procedure, and the barrel and
    water are nearly free, much like cheap, unskilled labor. (Unless, of
    course, the cheap, unskilled labor drops the gauge from up near the
    ceiling, in which case a new gauge may be needed and everything has to
    be repeated.)

    Typing is a lot easier than testing.

    Cheers,

    Carl Fogel

    Aww man, major bummer.
    I was hoping it might have been easier than it looks.

    Dear Earl,

    I keep hoping the same thing.

    Usually, it turns out to be easier, but only long after I've stopped
    looking in all the wrong places.

    But I certainly got my money's worth out of the Park gauge before
    carelessly dropping it from up above eye level (which is hardly what
    Calvin Jones and the Park Tool Company had in mind anyway).

    And it's really not that bad when compared to other tales of woe here
    on RBT, the ones that begin, "My $X,000 carbon frame kissed a car's
    bumper, can I trust it or should I throw it away?"

    And it's _really_ not bad at all compared to comments in this current
    thread in rec.bicycles.misc:

    "The wrong move would cause some sharp pain, but my doctor said that
    was absolutely normal. Within a few weeks, there were no problems at
    all."
    --Frank Krygowski

    "I never had nausea at all, just a lot of pressure - like an alien was
    going to burst out of my gut. The scary part is, if the thing does
    burst you actually feel better so if I'd toughed it out another day
    and that happened I would have been in real trouble."
    --Diablo Scott

    "I ended up staying in the hospital for 14 days and lost 14 kilos. I
    started riding a few days after I got home, but I didn't have any
    strength for a while, and didn't feel 'normal' for 2 months."
    --Joseph Santaniello

    http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.misc/browse_frm/thread/a012c7567952e1a9/c69cffbb97e44139#c69cffbb97e44139
    or http://tinyurl.com/y9jtk6

    Monday, I'll buy a new Park gauge, unless something amazingly clever
    comes to mind in the meantime.

    Cheers,

    Carl Fogel

  11. In article <[email hidden]>,

    Quoted message said:

    Your comment reminded me that I'd never looked into the DT Swiss
    tension gauge calibration data.

    The deflection and tension for all the different kinds of DT spokes
    are charted at the bottom of this PDF:

    http://www.dtswiss.com/data/files/MAN_EN_51202133804.pdf

    The chart gives "measured values", but the measurement is not
    of spoke displacement. As with the park gauge, it measures across the
    spoke and includes spoke thickness. The zeroing is for the gauge in
    its "rest position" and does not correct for spoke thickness: this is
    not the same as the zeroing of Jobst's design.

    This would not enter into comparing the 2.0mm stainless steel
    spoke with the 2.0mm titanium spoke, however. The differences between
    these two columns make me suspect the curves are based on empirical (not
    physics based) curve fitting of relatively few measured points, and that
    how the fitting extrapolates is overly sensitive to measurement
    uncertainty in those points.

    -Luns

  12. On Sat, 6 Jan 2007 23:35:52 +0000 (UTC), [email hidden]

    (Luns Tee) said:

    In article <[email hidden]>,

    Quoted message said:

    Your comment reminded me that I'd never looked into the DT Swiss
    tension gauge calibration data.

    The deflection and tension for all the different kinds of DT spokes
    are charted at the bottom of this PDF:

    http://www.dtswiss.com/data/files/MAN_EN_51202133804.pdf

    The chart gives "measured values", but the measurement is not
    of spoke displacement. As with the park gauge, it measures across the
    spoke and includes spoke thickness. The zeroing is for the gauge in
    its "rest position" and does not correct for spoke thickness: this is
    not the same as the zeroing of Jobst's design.

    This would not enter into comparing the 2.0mm stainless steel
    spoke with the 2.0mm titanium spoke, however. The differences between
    these two columns make me suspect the curves are based on empirical (not
    physics based) curve fitting of relatively few measured points, and that
    how the fitting extrapolates is overly sensitive to measurement
    uncertainty in those points.

    -Luns

    Dear Luns,

    Hmmm . . . I suspect that the DT chart differences between the steel
    and titanium round spokes are real and the result of careful
    measurement, since the same patterns appear in the Park gauge chart.

    On a Park gauge, the spring-loaded central hammer post pushes the same
    shape and thickness spoke to obviously different levels for steel and
    titanium spokes at the same tension:

    kgf kgf kgf kgf
    tension tension tension tension
    Park round round bladed bladed
    needle 2.0 mm 2.0 mm 2.6x1.4 2.6x1.4
    mark steel titanium steel titanium
    ---- --------------- ---------------
    9 . . . 53
    10 . . . 57
    11 . . . 62
    12 . . 53 67 +14
    13 . . 59 72 +13
    14 . . 65 79 +14
    15 . 52 72 86 +14
    16 . 56 79 95 +16
    17 51 61 +10 88 105 +17
    18 56 66 +10 98 116 +18
    19 62 73 +11 110 129 +19
    20 68 80 +12 123 143 +20
    21 76 88 +12 138 160 +22
    22 85 97 +12 155 .
    23 95 109 +14 175 .
    24 107 121 +14
    25 121 136 +15
    26 137 154 +17
    27 156 174 +18
    28 179 .

    Here are the DT columns for straight round 2mm steel and titanium
    spokes, brought together. Note that DT's vertical scale is not linear.
    Note also that the titanium column may have some weird errors and
    possibly even a typo:

    mm for mm for
    tension 2mm 2mm
    Newtons steel titanium
    ------- ----- --------
    xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx using 100 newton increments
    300 1.18 0.080 -0.38
    400 1.42 1.10 -0.32
    500 1.61 1.33 -0.28
    xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx switch to 50 newton increments
    550 1.69 1.43 -0.26
    600 1.76 1.52 -0.24
    650 1.83 1.60 -0.23
    700 1.89 1.75 -0.14 big jump? titanium seems goofy
    750 1.95 1.82 -0.13
    800 2.00 1.88 -0.12
    850 2.05 1.94 -0.11
    900 2.10 1.99 -0.11
    950 2.15 2.05 -0.10
    1000 2.19 2.10 -0.09
    1050 2.23 2.14 -0.09
    1100 2.27 2.19 -0.08
    1150 2.31 2.23 -0.08
    1200 2.34 2.32 -0.02
    xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx back to 100 newton increments
    1300 2.41 2.39 -0.02
    1400 2.47 2.47 matching
    1500 2.53 2.53 matching
    1600 2.59 2.60 +0.01
    1700 2.64 2.65 +0.01
    1800 2.68 2.71 +0.03
    1900 2.73 2.76 +0.03
    2000 2.77 2.86 +0.09 big jump? tita
    xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx switch to 200 newton increments
    2200 2.85 2.86 +0.09 typo plus big jump?
    2400 2.93 2.95 ????? confusion

    I've marked where the DT chart seems to behave strangely. It's likely
    that far fewer DT gauges are sold at $300-$400, so they may not get as
    much feedback from customers as Park about errors, particularly on the
    rare titanium spokes.

    Given the same dimensions for the short spoke span in the gauge, the
    different deflections must reflect how stiff or how elastic the spoke
    material is. Possibly the companies are applying complicated physics
    equations, but I think that it's likely just measuring known loads.

    Here's a test of a tension gauge, a single run of 12 known loads,
    starting with a dry water barrel in a heavy rig and adding eleven 10
    kg buckets of water:

    http://i11.tinypic.com/43eu3d5.jpg

    The purple data points what kind of curve a single set of tests form a
    pretty but useless curve.

    Before the gauge was dropped, a known 190-lb load hung from the
    ceiling by a spoke produced a Park gauge reading that converted to 190
    lbs of tension on the Park table. (That's the irritable yellow mark.)

    Now it takes a 250-lb load to move the needle to the same reading.

    There's more evidence that dropping the gauge on the floor is a bad
    idea. I have a spoke in a rig made out of a spoked car wheel, which
    was tightened repeatedly and checked at Park mark 24. The spoke now
    lets the gauge needle drop to mark 22.

    Anyway, I imagine that DT and Park use more sophisticated calibration
    methods than carefully marked buckets of water, so it seems likely
    that their tables reflect real differences in the behavior of steel
    and titanium spokes in the short spans of the gauges.

    Cheers,

    Carl Fogel

  13. The title of this thread fits better with politics that we haven't had
    recently...

    Bush bumper stickers
    --------------------
    That's OK, I Wasn't Using My Civil Liberties Anyway

    Let's Fix Democracy in This Country First

    If You Want a Nation Ruled By Religion, Move to Iran

    Bush. Like a Rock. Only Dumber.

    If You Can Read This, You're Not Our President

    Of Course It Hurts: You're Getting Screwed by an Elephant

    Hey, Bush Supporters: Embarrassed Yet?

    George Bush: Creating the Terrorists Our Kids Will Have to Fight

    Impeachment: It's Not Just for Blowjobs Anymore

    America: One Nation, Under Surveillance

    Whose God Do You Kill For?

    Cheney/Satan '08

    Jail to the Chief

    No, Seriously, Why Did We Invade Iraq?

    Bush: God's Way of Proving Intelligent Design is Full Of [censored]

    Bad President! No Banana.

    We Need a President Who's Fluent In At Least One Language

    We're Making Enemies Faster Than We Can Kill Them

    Is It Vietnam Yet?

    Bush Doesn't Care About White People, Either

    Where Are We Going? And Why Are We In This Handbasket?

    You Elected Him. You Deserve Him.

    Impeach Cheney First

    Dubya, Your Dad Shoulda Pulled Out, Too

    When Bush Took Office, Gas Was $1.46

    Pray For Impeachment

    The Republican Party: Our Bridge to the 11th Century

    What Part of "Bush Lied" Don't You Understand?

    One Nation Under Clod

    2004: Embarrassed
    2005: Horrified
    2006: Terrified

    Bush Never Exhaled

    At Least Nixon Resigned

    George: How about a nice hunting vacation with Cheney?

  14. Quoted message said:

    The title of this thread fits better with politics that we haven't had
    recently...

    Bush bumper stickers

    This posted by the guy who flamed someone for posting a ride report in RBM
    because it "belonged" in RB-Rides.

    Good stuff, JB! LOL

  15. Quoted message said:

    The title of this thread fits better with politics that we haven't had
    recently...

    Bush bumper stickers
    --------------------
    That's OK, I Wasn't Using My Civil Liberties Anyway

    Let's Fix Democracy in This Country First

    If You Want a Nation Ruled By Religion, Move to Iran

    Bush. Like a Rock. Only Dumber.

    If You Can Read This, You're Not Our President

    Of Course It Hurts: You're Getting Screwed by an Elephant

    Hey, Bush Supporters: Embarrassed Yet?

    George Bush: Creating the Terrorists Our Kids Will Have to Fight

    Impeachment: It's Not Just for Blowjobs Anymore

    America: One Nation, Under Surveillance

    Whose God Do You Kill For?

    Cheney/Satan '08

    Jail to the Chief

    No, Seriously, Why Did We Invade Iraq?

    Bush: God's Way of Proving Intelligent Design is Full Of [censored]

    Bad President! No Banana.

    We Need a President Who's Fluent In At Least One Language

    We're Making Enemies Faster Than We Can Kill Them

    Is It Vietnam Yet?

    Bush Doesn't Care About White People, Either

    Where Are We Going? And Why Are We In This Handbasket?

    You Elected Him. You Deserve Him.

    Impeach Cheney First

    Dubya, Your Dad Shoulda Pulled Out, Too

    When Bush Took Office, Gas Was $1.46

    Pray For Impeachment

    The Republican Party: Our Bridge to the 11th Century

    What Part of "Bush Lied" Don't You Understand?

    One Nation Under Clod

    2004: Embarrassed
    2005: Horrified
    2006: Terrified

    Bush Never Exhaled

    At Least Nixon Resigned

    George: How about a nice hunting vacation with Cheney?

    Dear Jobst,

    As a published author, you must be tired of readers asking about the
    nuts and bolts of your writing technique, but my former occupation
    leaves me insatiably curious about the details of how literary
    contraptions, as the poet Auden called them, are cobbled together.

    Do you just cut-and-paste pithy quotes wholesale from internet sites?

    Or do you stop while you're riding your bicycle, jot down the wisdom
    that you see on the behinds of automobiles in your notebook, and later
    transfer the best ones to your computer?

    Cheers,

    Carl Fogel

  16. Bill Sornson said:
    Quoted message said:

    The title of this thread fits better with politics that we haven't had
    recently...

    Bush bumper stickers

    This posted by the guy who flamed someone for posting a ride report in RBM
    because it "belonged" in RB-Rides.

    Good stuff, JB! LOL

    Wonder if you'd bother posting if they were anti-Pelosi instead of
    anti-Bush (?).

  17. Bill Sornson said:
    Quoted message said:

    The title of this thread fits better with politics that we haven't had
    recently...

    Bush bumper stickers

    This posted by the guy who flamed someone for posting a ride report in RBM
    because it "belonged" in RB-Rides.

    Good stuff, JB! LOL

    Wonder if you'd bother posting if they were anti-Pelosi instead of
    anti-Bush (?).

  18. Quoted message said:

    The title of this thread fits better with politics that we haven't had
    recently...

    Bush bumper stickers
    --------------------


    -snip juvenile humor-

    1. This is not the place and
    2. You're normally more mature than that

    --
    Andrew Muzi
    www.yellowjersey.org
    Open every day since 1 April, 1971

  19. A Muzi said:

    [email hidden] wrote:

    --------------------

    Quoted message said:

    -snip juvenile humor-

    Quoted message said:

    1. This is not the place

    True.

    Quoted message said:

    2. You're normally more mature than that

    Cite?

    LOL

  20. In article <[email hidden]>,

    Quoted message said:

    Given the same dimensions for the short spoke span in the gauge, the
    different deflections must reflect how stiff or how elastic the spoke
    material is.

    The difference in bending stiffness does affect the measurement,
    but there are oddities to DT's calibration charts that are fishy to me.

    The 2.0mm titanium spoke is half as stiff in bending as a steel
    spoke. It should deflect more than steel, and for a given range of
    tensions, the range of deflections should be greater than for steel.

    DT's charts do indeed indicate a greater range of deflections
    for titanium, however note that the difference between titanium and
    steel varies from the the titanium spoke having more deflection at low
    tensions (smaller reading) as it should, to the steel spoke having
    less deflection at high tensions, which would make no sense.

    My best guess as to what's going on is that there's a constant
    offset being introduced into the measurement, with the steel spoke's
    measured deflection being a fixed amount more than what it should be,
    and/or the titanium's being less. For larger displacements (low
    tension), these are overwhelmed by the actual displacement
    differences, but at high tensions, the offsets are overwhelming the
    actual difference.

    The steel spoke displacement is at most only 0.02mm greater than
    the titanium in their tables. This is well within the range of offsets
    observable from a bend/kink in the spoke, and is the offset that only
    Jobst's design can zero for.

    Other weirdness in the chart: compare the columns for
    1.8/1.6 and 2.0/1.8 spokes. Comparing the straight gauge 1.8 to the
    2.0/1.8 spoke, or the 1.8/1.5 with 2.0/1.5 spokes should give you some
    feel for the tolerances in these measurement values.

    Quoted message said:

    Possibly the companies are applying complicated physics
    equations, but I think that it's likely just measuring known loads.

    I won't speak for what DT does, but the spreadsheet that Park
    provides for their gauge does have equations embedded in it (credited to
    C.S. Howat). The equation used has no basis in physics as far as I can
    tell, but is based on observing that the measured curves, when
    plotted on a semi-log scale, are curved somewhat like a parabola. This
    may work reasonably well over some range of measurements, but wouldn't
    extrapolate well, nor is it able to predict a-priori what the curve
    for one type of spoke should be based on measurements for another.

    This isn't to single out Park though. The calibration sheets
    that FSA provides also give curves that are based on measurements. As
    with Titanium vs. Stainless in DT's charts, the curves on FSA's charts
    sometimes cross too, when I don't think they should. This is the
    result of the curves being, I think, a polynomial fit of the measured
    data. While it's a convenient fit to perform in Excel, and produces
    smooth pretty curves, it doesn't reflect what the data should be doing.

    -Luns

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