new electric assist cycling technology

G.fried said:

Hello,

we are investigating a new type of electric assist bicycle technology
and are currently collecting the requirements. ....

I got into bicycle motors a bit recently.

At one point I ran some figures comparing gasoline and electric setups;
of the two (popular products) I compared, the electric cost over twice
as much and had a cost-per-mile that was five to ten times as high as
the gasoline engine setup. This was using U.S. fuel prices, Europe is
2-3X as high but still you can see the problem.

Advocates of electrics play yup the low-pollution aspects but that is
very debatable over the long term, considering the battery production
and disposal requirements.

There are a few situations where gasoline engines aren't practical--such
as when you desire silent operation, or for a physically-disabled rider
who wants "pushbutton power",,, but judged on a cost basis alone,
electrics still lose badly.
~

DougC said:

G.fried said:

Hello,
we are investigating a new type of electric assist bicycle
technology and are currently collecting the requirements. ....

I got into bicycle motors a bit recently.

At one point I ran some figures comparing gasoline and electric
setups; of the two (popular products) I compared, the electric cost
over twice as much and had a cost-per-mile that was five to ten times
as high as the gasoline engine setup. This was using U.S. fuel prices,
Europe is 2-3X as high but still you can see the problem.

Advocates of electrics play yup the low-pollution aspects but that is
very debatable over the long term, considering the battery production
and disposal requirements.

For longer trips around here, you can carry an electric bicycle on a
train but not a gasoline-powered one. It is primarily a safety issue:
you don't want passengers in a compartment with highly flamable
materials such as gasoline in case of a train accident.

--
My real name backwards: nemuaZ lliB

Find it hard to beleive that my Lafree costs more to run than even the
smallest I.C. bike

SW

"DougC" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

G.fried said:

Hello,

we are investigating a new type of electric assist bicycle technology and
are currently collecting the requirements. ....

I got into bicycle motors a bit recently.

At one point I ran some figures comparing gasoline and electric setups; of
the two (popular products) I compared, the electric cost over twice as
much and had a cost-per-mile that was five to ten times as high as the
gasoline engine setup. This was using U.S. fuel prices, Europe is 2-3X as
high but still you can see the problem.

Advocates of electrics play yup the low-pollution aspects but that is very
debatable over the long term, considering the battery production and
disposal requirements.

There are a few situations where gasoline engines aren't practical--such
as when you desire silent operation, or for a physically-disabled rider
who wants "pushbutton power",,, but judged on a cost basis alone,
electrics still lose badly.
~

"DougC" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

G.fried said:

Hello,

we are investigating a new type of electric assist bicycle technology and
are currently collecting the requirements. ....

I got into bicycle motors a bit recently.

At one point I ran some figures comparing gasoline and electric setups; of
the two (popular products) I compared, the electric cost over twice as
much and had a cost-per-mile that was five to ten times as high as the
gasoline engine setup. This was using U.S. fuel prices, Europe is 2-3X as
high but still you can see the problem.

Advocates of electrics play yup the low-pollution aspects but that is very
debatable over the long term, considering the battery production and
disposal requirements.

There are a few situations where gasoline engines aren't practical--such
as when you desire silent operation, or for a physically-disabled rider
who wants "pushbutton power",,, but judged on a cost basis alone,
electrics still lose badly.

If parking lots gave you free power up all day it would be cost efficient.
That is what they are doing now in the States. Not sure where but for a
parking lot company it would be a good idea.

G.fried said:

Hello,

we are investigating a new type of electric assist bicycle technology
and are currently collecting the requirements. The project
hyperbike.cc is a feasibility study contracted by the Austrian
ministry for transport, technology and innovation. We invite you to
help us to help you. We would appreciate very much if you could fill
in our on-line questionnaire at

http://www.hyperbike.cc/Vorlage.phtml?id=716

After answering tips about cycling are displayed.

Love this question
When riding an electric bicycle, what problem have you experienced most
often?

Unmantling of parts when driving

Theo

Steve Watkin said:

Find it hard to beleive that my Lafree costs more to run than even the
smallest I.C. bike

IC is subsidised widely by society, plus there are tons of small IC
motors around (economy of scale)

I'm all for making travel safe for bicycles and light electric
vehicles, which I believe can happily coexist on dedicated paths and
large shoulders on regular roads. It is a mistake though, to combine
electric and pedal power in the same vehicle. A decent cyclist doesn't
need the assist or added weight, and someone who wants electric power
doesn't need the extra complexity of hardware for pedaling.

A good electric scooter will weigh ~200lb and have a range of 30 miles
@ 30mph. No reason to put cranks and derailures an something like that.
And if you reduce the weight by making the batteries and motor smaller,
you might as well do away with power assist altogether.

nash said:

"DougC" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

G.fried said:

Hello,

we are investigating a new type of electric assist bicycle technology and
are currently collecting the requirements. ....

I got into bicycle motors a bit recently.

At one point I ran some figures comparing gasoline and electric setups; of
the two (popular products) I compared, the electric cost over twice as
much and had a cost-per-mile that was five to ten times as high as the
gasoline engine setup. This was using U.S. fuel prices, Europe is 2-3X as
high but still you can see the problem.

Advocates of electrics play yup the low-pollution aspects but that is very
debatable over the long term, considering the battery production and
disposal requirements.

There are a few situations where gasoline engines aren't practical--such
as when you desire silent operation, or for a physically-disabled rider
who wants "pushbutton power",,, but judged on a cost basis alone,
electrics still lose badly.

If parking lots gave you free power up all day it would be cost efficient.
That is what they are doing now in the States. Not sure where but for a
parking lot company it would be a good idea.

One word here.
Solar!
Take a panel, even a fold up, and have a way to mount it when you are in
the building. Not for everywhere, since some thieve might actually
realize the panel costs more than most bikes, Treks excluded.
Bill Baka

Steve Watkin said:

Find it hard to beleive that my Lafree costs more to run than even the
smallest I.C. bike

SW

Tell us, how many miles does it go on one charge, how many discharge
cycles does the battery withstand before needing replacement, and how
much do replacement batteries cost (in US$)?....
~

DougC said:

Steve Watkin said:

Find it hard to beleive that my Lafree costs more to run than even the
smallest I.C. bike

SW

Tell us, how many miles does it go on one charge, how many discharge
cycles does the battery withstand before needing replacement, and how
much do replacement batteries cost (in US$)?....
~

Well okay,,,--some searching has found me pages stating that for the LA
Free bikes: the "range" is 28 miles, the discharge life is 500 cycles
and the battery replacement cost I didn't run across (but it can
certainly be found) --but this bike is an /assist-only/. So to find out
how much power it is really putting out, we need to know the level of
assist it is providing. Anybody know?

The electric setup I compared was the Bionx system, which although it is
also an assist-only setup (it will not move the bicycle without the
rider pedaling), the Bionx lets you explicitly set the assist level. So
for example if the Bionx has a range of 30 miles when set to 100%
assist, then we can fairly estimate that the Bionx alone could have
pushed the bike about half those miles....
~

Bill Baka said:

nash said:

"DougC" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

G.fried wrote:

[snip]

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Advocates of electrics play yup the low-pollution aspects but that is very
debatable over the long term, considering the battery production and
disposal requirements.

There are a few situations where gasoline engines aren't practical--such
as when you desire silent operation, or for a physically-disabled rider
who wants "pushbutton power",,, but judged on a cost basis alone,
electrics still lose badly.

If parking lots gave you free power up all day it would be cost efficient.
That is what they are doing now in the States. Not sure where but for a
parking lot company it would be a good idea.

One word here.
Solar!
Take a panel, even a fold up, and have a way to mount it when you are in
the building. Not for everywhere, since some thieve might actually
realize the panel costs more than most bikes, Treks excluded.

There are two problems with cars, the energy source (fossil fuel) and
the sheer amount of energy required.

Some kind of modestly-powered bicycle takes such a large chunk out of
the second problem, you don't need to worry about the first.

A car requires around 50 to 100 bhp, that's around 55kW. One or a half
percent of that is more than enough to power a bike. If a car does 35
miles to a gallon of fuel, we should be able to make a
bicycle-shaped-machine that does 3500 miles or so to the gallon.

This is so little it's probably less damaging to the environment than
actually eating the extra Calories you'd need to ride the bike yourself.
So who cares what it runs on, but if you're really bothered, I'm sure it
could be made to run on sunflower oil or something.

Of course internal combustion engines don't just scale down, they work
best at around the 1/2-litre capacity size, so you make a "pulse and
glide" engine, and maybe a battery is useful there for smoothing out the
pulses.

This way you can have an enormous range in a reliable and fairly
lightweight engine carrying a teacupful of fuel.

If on the other hand we still want to drive around in cars at the speeds
and at the level of safety to which we've become accustomed, which of
course we do, then we need to research alternative fuels for cars.

Okay how's this:
I couldn't find any reviews that stated the actual assist levels. But
what we /can/ do is compare the batteries to a known example.
--------
On this page--
http://www.norcom2000.com/users/dcimper/assorted/inanities/recumbent/moto_bike_page/episode005/episode005.html

is my comparison of the four Bionx setups (different batteries). You see
the first battery noted is the NiMH 24V 8Ah that costs $395 and can
propel the bike about 4495 miles over its (the battery's) total expected
lifetime. (-?-Bionx only suggests 450 discharge cycles for NiMH's but
anyway-)

Now, this page:
http://www.myebike.com/bikes/lite2.html
says that the Giant Lite battery is a 24V 6.5Ah NiMH, and that the
replacement cost is $350. This price agrees with a second place selling
LaFree batteries for $360:
http://www.bernsonev.com/giant-parts-accessories-c-34.html

If we assume that the LaFree motor and battery are no more efficient
than what the Bionx uses, then (6.5Ah/8Ah) x (4495 miles x (500/450
discharge cycles)) miles = 4058 miles total, you should expect to get
from an LaFree battery pack over 500 discharge cycles.

4058 miles / $350 battery replacement cost = $.0862 per mile, or 8.62
cents per mile.... Now look at the fuel costs for the 4-cycle engine on
my page; with fuel at $2.50/gal and assuming 200 mpg, the gas engine's
cost is ~1.25 cents per mile.

Oh, and purchase price?... That's cheaper too. The LaFree bike cost
around $1300, many places report. A gasoline engine kit costs from $150
up to $600 (for the Golden Eagle kit I chose), plus a suitable bike
(which may be as cheap as $100).

If you figure matters on a cost-per-power comparison, the gasoline
engine would come out way on top again. The Bionx setup has a high
"peak" output, but that [most likely] is at zero RPMs. Most of the time,
it doesn't put out more than 300 or so watts, where the Robin 35cc
4-cycle engine (on the setup I chose) will put out ~800+ watts cruising
power (1.1 hp), and can peak at up to 1200+ watts (1.6 hp).
--------

I'd LOVE to see a electric setup (that is available to consumers) and
that can compete on a cost-per-mile with gasoline... but I've done
figures for a few setups that were supposed to be technically
outstanding, and they all still fell /way/ short of what a 4-cycle
engine burning gasoline could do.
~

with fuel at $2.50/gal and assuming 200 mpg, the gas engine's
cost is ~1.25 cents per mile.<<<<<

nobody gets 200 mpg in a car

nash said:

with fuel at $2.50/gal and assuming 200 mpg, the gas engine's
cost is ~1.25 cents per mile.<<<<<

nobody gets 200 mpg in a car

-The 200 mpg rating is for a gasoline-engined /bicycle/.

"DougC" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

nash said:

with fuel at $2.50/gal and assuming 200 mpg, the gas engine's
cost is ~1.25 cents per mile.<<<<<

nobody gets 200 mpg in a car

-The 200 mpg rating is for a gasoline-engined /bicycle/.

Then why is he comparing an electric bike to owning a four cyclinder car?

In article <IRSmh.550967$5R2.498717@pd7urf3no>, zwepytzkehillc9
@jetable.net says...

Quoted message said:

"DougC" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

nash said:

with fuel at $2.50/gal and assuming 200 mpg, the gas engine's
cost is ~1.25 cents per mile.<<<<<

nobody gets 200 mpg in a car

-The 200 mpg rating is for a gasoline-engined /bicycle/.

Then why is he comparing an electric bike to owning a four cyclinder car?

He's not; he's comparing an electric bike to a 4-*stroke* gasoline-
powered bike/scooter.

--
Remove the ns_ from if replying by e-mail (but keep posts in the
newsgroups if possible).

In article <[email hidden]>,

DougC said:

If you figure matters on a cost-per-power comparison, the gasoline
engine would come out way on top again. The Bionx setup has a high
"peak" output, but that [most likely] is at zero RPMs. Most of the time,
it doesn't put out more than 300 or so watts, where the Robin 35cc
4-cycle engine (on the setup I chose) will put out ~800+ watts cruising
power (1.1 hp), and can peak at up to 1200+ watts (1.6 hp).

In some jurisdictions that wattage would put such a vehicle
over the threshold of qualifying as a Power Assisted Bicycle,
and into the realm of motor(ized) vehicles requiring licensing,
insurance and registration, as well as other complications such
as street-legal lights.

cheers,
Tom

--
Nothing is safe from me.
Above address is just a spam midden.
I'm really at: tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca

Terryc said:

Steve Watkin said:

Find it hard to beleive that my Lafree costs more to run than even the
smallest I.C. bike

IC is subsidised widely by society, plus there are tons of small IC
motors around (economy of scale)

In what way is the I.C. engine "widely subsidized by society"?

If you mean its negative effects aren't fully reflected in
its pricing, than that's fine, but neither is a host of other
things as well, including electric power and its storage
(batteries).

There are also tons of electric motors and batteries around
too.

SMH

DougC said:

I'd LOVE to see a electric setup (that is available to consumers) and
that can compete on a cost-per-mile with gasoline... but I've done
figures for a few setups that were supposed to be technically
outstanding, and they all still fell /way/ short of what a 4-cycle
engine burning gasoline could do.

Good comparison... but what about a scooter with cheap lead-acid
batteries? That would be much more economical, since as you pointed
out, the battery cost is the biggest expense.

$155 for batteries for the Ego2... which costs $1200 new.

http://www.egovehicles.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=EGO&Product_Code=423-3201&Category_Code=ELEC

They say it will last ~10k miles, but even if it is replaced at 5k
miles, it is only 3.1 cents/mile. Since these are standard batteries,
they could probably be purchased more cheaply elsewhere.