'Dishing' a wheel? Oo-er...doable? Tips? Ta

AP said:

I'm almost persuaded to cold set my frame, in order to accommodate a 7 speed
block at the back, but I seem to remember reading somehwre that to do this
I'll need to redish the wheel. From what I've googled, this sounds fairly
daunting...a good way for a fool to destroy a perfectly good wheel. I have
used a spoke key, but rarely, and only to tighten up loose spokes. Is
redishing the kind of thing a relative newbie can do?

I wouldn't rule the possibility out entirely, but speaking as someone of
similar experience (minor fettling of basically okay wheels and minor
truing), *I* would go to my LBS and give them the job. Beyond that, how
fast do you pick things up, and how much time have you got to burn?

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

AP said:

(Previously 28 24 22 20 18 - sensible? doable? costly?)

I'm almost persuaded to cold set my frame, in order to accommodate a
7 speed block at the back, but I seem to remember reading somehwre
that to do this I'll need to redish the wheel.

If you widen the frame equally on both sides, then the wheel stays the same,
you pack the extra distance with spacer washers on each side if using a
narrower hub. The "redishing" only happens if you move a frame on one side
only.

However, why do you need to widen it ?
Most frames will spring the required amount. I have a 126mm wide frame
which has been sprung to 130mm for 16 years with no problems; I am used to
how to shove the frame slightly to spring the wheel in.
I also have a 120mm wide frame which has a 7speed screw-on freewheel block,
with no springing/changes (though the chain clearance is very tight on this
one, its been fine with 7speed since the late 1980's).

Quoted message said:

From what I've
googled, this sounds fairly daunting...a good way for a fool to
destroy a perfectly good wheel. I have used a spoke key, but rarely,
and only to tighten up loose spokes. Is redishing the kind of thing a
relative newbie can do?

Yes, if done logically. But I don't think you need to.

Quoted message said:

Many thanks for any hints & tips.

--
Nigel Cliffe,
Webmaster at http://www.2mm.org.uk/

In article <[email hidden]>

Nigel Cliffe said:

AP said:

(Previously 28 24 22 20 18 - sensible? doable? costly?)

I'm almost persuaded to cold set my frame, in order to accommodate a
7 speed block at the back, but I seem to remember reading somehwre
that to do this I'll need to redish the wheel.

If you widen the frame equally on both sides, then the wheel stays the same,
you pack the extra distance with spacer washers on each side if using a
narrower hub. The "redishing" only happens if you move a frame on one side
only.

Is the wrong answer. Usually when a 120mm hub is re-spaced for a wider
block the spacers are added only (or mostly) on the block side.

Quoted message said:

However, why do you need to widen it ?

So the wheel will fit /properly/.

AP said:

(Previously 28 24 22 20 18 - sensible? doable? costly?)

I'm almost persuaded to cold set my frame, in order to accommodate a
7 speed block at the back, but I seem to remember reading somehwre
that to do this I'll need to redish the wheel. From what I've
googled, this sounds fairly daunting...a good way for a fool to
destroy a perfectly good wheel. I have used a spoke key, but rarely,
and only to tighten up loose spokes. Is redishing the kind of thing a
relative newbie can do?

If you can true a wheel, you can redish a wheel.

It's just a question adjusting the relative spoke tightness of one side,
checking, and adjusting again until it's acceptable.

If you reckon spoke tension is about right in the first place (not regarding
dishing, just generally), tighten the side the rim needs to go towards by
one whole turn each spoke, and loosen the other by half a turn each spoke.
Check the centering and repeat as necessary, using your judgement as to how
much of a turn, or many turns, is needed again. Carry on repeating or
correcting until done.

Some truing will be required as well (during or afterwards) because you
won't make /precisely/ the same difference to each spoke on each side, or if
there is some spoke wind-up. If it starts to go pear-shaped (metaphorically
or literally!), don't panic, it can be corrected. Still don't panic if your
attempted correction makes it worse. You (or a bike shop) will get it right
eventually.

If you think all the spokes are already slacker than ideal before you start
(this is common) then leave one side alone and just tighten the other. Vice
versa if the reverse is true - but this is rare. Have a feel of a similar
wheel if in much doubt.

You can use the bike frame to check the wheel is dished correctly by eye if
you don't have a dishing gauge. The rim should be centred between the
stays. Spin the wheel in case it isn't true and judge by the average. True
the wheel first if it's /too/ "buckled" to check the dishing.

Also check with the wheel fitted back-to-front to double-check and eliminate
other things. Don't judge the centering by the brake blocks as they may be
off-centre. However, you can use the blocks for truing as long as you're
aware of what's what.

To try and prevent wind-up (the spokes twisting), with whatever adjustment
you make to each spoke, either way, every time, turn the nipple about an
1/8th to a 1/4 turn too far, then back again to where you want it.

Hope that de-dauntifies it a bit for you instead of the opposite :-)

Proper professional instructions:
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/wheelbuild.html

~PB

Quoted message said:

If you reckon spoke tension is about right in the first place (not
regarding dishing, just generally), tighten the side the rim needs to
go towards by one whole turn each spoke, and loosen the other by half
a turn each spoke.

There I'm assuming the rim is being moved towards the right (drive side, the
side the spockets are on). The drive side spokes need more difference in
tension to make a difference to the dish compared to the other side.

Do the opposite when going the other way.

~PB

"AP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

(Previously 28 24 22 20 18 - sensible? doable? costly?)

I'm almost persuaded to cold set my frame, in order to accommodate a 7
speed block at the back, but I seem to remember reading somehwre that to
do this I'll need to redish the wheel. From what I've googled, this sounds
fairly daunting...a good way for a fool to destroy a perfectly good wheel.
I have used a spoke key, but rarely, and only to tighten up loose spokes.
Is redishing the kind of thing a relative newbie can do?

Many thanks for any hints & tips.

As a complete novice at bicycle repair and maintenance I have found that a
little practice on a non critical wheel i.e. an old one that you are
prepared to scrap if necessary does wonders for your confidence and allows
you to get the feel of what adjustements do and if you break something,
strip a thread it is of no consequence.

MJP

AP said:

(Previously 28 24 22 20 18 - sensible? doable? costly?)

I'm almost persuaded to cold set my frame, in order to accommodate a 7
speed block at the back, but I seem to remember reading somehwre that to
do this I'll need to redish the wheel. From what I've googled, this sounds
fairly daunting...a good way for a fool to destroy a perfectly good wheel.
I have used a spoke key, but rarely, and only to tighten up loose spokes.
Is redishing the kind of thing a relative newbie can do?

Many thanks for any hints & tips.

My LBS will rebuild a wheel on a new hub for about £12. Unless you want the
experience of going it yourself, I'd ask your local shop to do it.

If you are going to all the trouble of cold setting the frame and redishing
the wheel, why not go all the way to 9 or 10 speeds while you're at it?

"Jim Higson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

AP said:

(Previously 28 24 22 20 18 - sensible? doable? costly?)

If you are going to all the trouble of cold setting the frame and
redishing
the wheel, why not go all the way to 9 or 10 speeds while you're at it?

That means new wheel - 7sp can be had as a freewheel, 9/10sp are cassette
only.

cheers,
clive

Quite. Plus Sheldon Brown reckons it's best to go only one step up in size -
ie, in my case from 120 to 126 - rather than push it to two steps - ie, to
130mm, which I'd have to to accommodate a 9 or 10 speed. And since seven
seems fair set to give me all the options I actually want, why push it?

Many thanks for all responses. Interesting stuff. Among other things, I do
feel significantly de-dauntified by the prospect of having a go at dishing;
I do have an old wheel I could have a go with before screwing up the real
McCoy; and I will in any case probably try without redishing first, and see
what happens. It *is* only 6mm...

So all I need now is a new axle, right? Or might I be able to use my
existing one by shifting some cones along a bit? (It *is* only 6mm...)

Thanks again all.
"Clive George" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Jim Higson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

AP said:

(Previously 28 24 22 20 18 - sensible? doable? costly?)

If you are going to all the trouble of cold setting the frame and
redishing
the wheel, why not go all the way to 9 or 10 speeds while you're at it?

That means new wheel - 7sp can be had as a freewheel, 9/10sp are cassette
only.

cheers,
clive

AP said:

Quite. Plus Sheldon Brown reckons it's best to go only one step up in size -
ie, in my case from 120 to 126 - rather than push it to two steps - ie, to
130mm, which I'd have to to accommodate a 9 or 10 speed. And since seven
seems fair set to give me all the options I actually want, why push it?

You shouldn't go past 126 or so, 7-speed, with your existing wheel.
Old style freewheel type wheels get very unreliable if you extend the
right side of the axle farther than is needed for a 7 speed block.

If you were to upgrade to a modern cassette hub, there's generally no
problem in going from 120 to 130 or even 135 with a decent qualtity
steel frame, unless it's a very short wheelbase "criterium type" frame
perhaps.

Quoted message said:

Many thanks for all responses. Interesting stuff. Among other things, I do
feel significantly de-dauntified

Oh, pleeeeease! That's not Proper English! The _correct_ term is
"dedauntificated" ;-)

Quoted message said:

by the prospect of having a go at dishing;
I do have an old wheel I could have a go with before screwing up the real
McCoy; and I will in any case probably try without redishing first, and see
what happens. It *is* only 6mm...

So all I need now is a new axle, right?

Nope.

Quoted message said:

Or might I be able to use my
existing one by shifting some cones along a bit? (It *is* only 6mm...)

Right. You only need 1-2 mm of axle protrusion past the locknut, if
that. Actually I spent quite a bit of time riding a fixed-gear
conversion where the axle was cut off _flush_ with the locknuts.
That's because the frame I was using had vertical dropouts, and I
gained a bit of chain tension adjustability by having only the skewer
running through the dropouts. This never gave me a lick of trouble.

Sheldon "Upgrades" Brown
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------+
| NOTICE: Due to Presidential Executive Orders, the National Security
|
| Agency may have read this email without warning, warrant, or notice.
|
| They may do this without any judicial or legislative oversight.
|
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------+
Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
http://harriscyclery.com
Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com

In article <[email hidden]>
AP <[email hidden]> wrote:
<snip>

Quoted message said:

So all I need now is a new axle, right? Or might I be able to use my
existing one by shifting some cones along a bit? (It *is* only 6mm...)

I just thought - if you can get an axle and skewer or a suitable solid
axle and nuts you could space the hub 132mm (+6mm on each side) and
avoid having to re-dish the wheel. That potentially leaves you with a
stronger (or at least not weaker due to increased dish) wheel, but
requires an extra 3mm set in the stays on each side.

So to summarise, I might well be able to get away with fitting a seven speed
screw-on freewheel to my existing wheel (I see no reason to discard it: it's
a good wheel); moving both cones down a few mill, making sure I have at
least a couple of mm past each locknut; adding a couple of 'spacer washers'
(whatever they are) so the freewheel doesn't actually lock up against the
fork ends; and *then* Bob might be my uncle?

Re Rob Morley's comments:

"space the hub 132mm (+6mm on each side) and avoid having to re-dish the
wheel. That potentially leaves you with a stronger (or at least not weaker
due to increased dish) wheel, but requires an extra 3mm set in the stays on
each side."

I like the bit in the middle, but I don't understand the first bit or the
last bit. 'space the hub'? 'an extra 3mm in the stays'? Might Bob be my
uncle nevertheless?

Thanks all

Alan
PS Shouldn't that be 'adjustabilosity'?

"Sheldon Brown" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

AP said:

Quite. Plus Sheldon Brown reckons it's best to go only one step up in

size -

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

ie, in my case from 120 to 126 - rather than push it to two steps - ie,

to

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

130mm, which I'd have to to accommodate a 9 or 10 speed. And since

seven

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

seems fair set to give me all the options I actually want, why push it?

You shouldn't go past 126 or so, 7-speed, with your existing wheel.
Old style freewheel type wheels get very unreliable if you extend the
right side of the axle farther than is needed for a 7 speed block.

If you were to upgrade to a modern cassette hub, there's generally no
problem in going from 120 to 130 or even 135 with a decent qualtity
steel frame, unless it's a very short wheelbase "criterium type" frame
perhaps.

Quoted message said:

Many thanks for all responses. Interesting stuff. Among other things, I

do

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

feel significantly de-dauntified

Oh, pleeeeease! That's not Proper English! The _correct_ term is
"dedauntificated" ;-)

Quoted message said:

by the prospect of having a go at dishing;
I do have an old wheel I could have a go with before screwing up the

real

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

McCoy; and I will in any case probably try without redishing first, and

see

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

what happens. It *is* only 6mm...

So all I need now is a new axle, right?

Nope.

Quoted message said:

Or might I be able to use my
existing one by shifting some cones along a bit? (It *is* only 6mm...)

Right. You only need 1-2 mm of axle protrusion past the locknut, if
that. Actually I spent quite a bit of time riding a fixed-gear
conversion where the axle was cut off _flush_ with the locknuts.
That's because the frame I was using had vertical dropouts, and I
gained a bit of chain tension adjustability by having only the skewer
running through the dropouts. This never gave me a lick of trouble.

Sheldon "Upgrades" Brown
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------+
| NOTICE: Due to Presidential Executive Orders, the National Security
|
| Agency may have read this email without warning, warrant, or notice.
|
| They may do this without any judicial or legislative oversight.
|
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------+
Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
http://harriscyclery.com
Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com

In article <[email hidden]>

AP said:

Re Rob Morley's comments:

"space the hub 132mm (+6mm on each side) and avoid having to re-dish the
wheel. That potentially leaves you with a stronger (or at least not weaker
due to increased dish) wheel, but requires an extra 3mm set in the stays on
each side."

I like the bit in the middle, but I don't understand the first bit or the
last bit. 'space the hub'? 'an extra 3mm in the stays'? Might Bob be my
uncle nevertheless?

A 5 speed hub is 120mm OLN (over lock nuts). To make it into an old-
style 6/7 speed 126mm OLN you need to increase the spacing on the
freewheel side by 6mm, spread the dropouts by 6mm and move the rim 3mm
to the right (re-dish) so it's still in the middle. If you were to add
6mm to both sides instead of just one side then you'd need to spread the
dropouts a further 6mm to 132mm but you wouldn't need to re-dish the
wheel. These days road wheels are commonly 130mm OLN, so you should be
able to get an axle of the right length to fit your hub.
If your spokes are in reasonable condition then re-dishing won't be hard
but if they've suffered the ravages of time then at least some of them
may have seized nipples which can make re-dishing a demoralizing job -
spoke wind-up can be a problem, nipples can round off and spokes break;
you end up wishing you'd cut them all out and started afresh with new
spokes [1].
I wouldn't worry too much about spreading steel stays from 120mm to
132mm as long as it's not some sort of ultra-light heat-treated alloy,
although you may need to tweak the dropouts to make sure they're
reasonably parallel afterwards.

Maybe I shouldn't have mentioned it - if you can re-space the existing
axle and re-dish the wheel then it's a proper job and will cost you
nothing but time and a few squirts of GT85.

[1] If you encounter a seized nipple that doesn't respond to soaking
you can sometimes loosen it by crushing with pliers/Mole grips, then
remove it leaving the spoke undamaged and ready for a new nipple.

Rob,

Excellent. No one has ever explained so elegantly the logic to
redishing geometrically.
All I ever saw was loosen and tighten spokes. That's almost not worth
the time to say and
only takes one or two sentences to fully explain.

But what you said makes perfect sense and have seen it nowhere on
hundreds of web pages 'explaining'
how to loosen and tighten spokes in redishing.

I appreciate your education and kindness to other owners struggling!

Thanks!!

Rob Morley said:

In article <[email hidden]>

AP said:

Re Rob Morley's comments:

"space the hub 132mm (+6mm on each side) and avoid having to re-dish the
wheel. That potentially leaves you with a stronger (or at least not weaker
due to increased dish) wheel, but requires an extra 3mm set in the stays on
each side."

I like the bit in the middle, but I don't understand the first bit or the
last bit. 'space the hub'? 'an extra 3mm in the stays'? Might Bob be my
uncle nevertheless?

A 5 speed hub is 120mm OLN (over lock nuts). To make it into an old-
style 6/7 speed 126mm OLN you need to increase the spacing on the
freewheel side by 6mm, spread the dropouts by 6mm and move the rim 3mm
to the right (re-dish) so it's still in the middle. If you were to add
6mm to both sides instead of just one side then you'd need to spread the
dropouts a further 6mm to 132mm but you wouldn't need to re-dish the
wheel. These days road wheels are commonly 130mm OLN, so you should be
able to get an axle of the right length to fit your hub.
If your spokes are in reasonable condition then re-dishing won't be hard
but if they've suffered the ravages of time then at least some of them
may have seized nipples which can make re-dishing a demoralizing job -
spoke wind-up can be a problem, nipples can round off and spokes break;
you end up wishing you'd cut them all out and started afresh with new
spokes [1].
I wouldn't worry too much about spreading steel stays from 120mm to
132mm as long as it's not some sort of ultra-light heat-treated alloy,
although you may need to tweak the dropouts to make sure they're
reasonably parallel afterwards.

Maybe I shouldn't have mentioned it - if you can re-space the existing
axle and re-dish the wheel then it's a proper job and will cost you
nothing but time and a few squirts of GT85.

[1] If you encounter a seized nipple that doesn't respond to soaking
you can sometimes loosen it by crushing with pliers/Mole grips, then
remove it leaving the spoke undamaged and ready for a new nipple.