Steering problems with new bike.

Wayne Pein may have said:

I bought a carbon fiber Kestrel Talon SL and have built it myself.

The headset is a Ritchey WCS, their top of the line. It has top and bottom angular cartridge
bearings.

When I adjust the preload on this "threadless" headset to remove play in the fork, the steering is
too tight. When I loosen it, the fork has play.

The headset cups are presumably pressed in fully and tight, and the fork crown race is all
the way on.

When I hold the fork tight in place at the bottom bearing and the top bearing removed, the steerer
seems to not center exactly within the upper head cup. It seems to me it should theoretically be
exactly centered.

So I'm trying to troubleshoot the problem.

Are "angular" cartridge bearings a good design for threadless type headsets?

Any thoughts?

I'd take the fork back out, yank the cups, and haul the frame to the lbs to get the head tube
faced. I suspect that the bearings are not able to seat properly because of an off-square end on
the head tube.

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Werehatrack said:

Wayne Pein may have said:

I bought a carbon fiber Kestrel Talon SL and have built it myself.

The headset is a Ritchey WCS, their top of the line. It has top and bottom angular cartridge
bearings.

When I adjust the preload on this "threadless" headset to remove play in the fork, the steering
is too tight. When I loosen it, the fork has play.

The headset cups are presumably pressed in fully and tight, and the fork crown race is all the
way on.

When I hold the fork tight in place at the bottom bearing and the top bearing removed, the
steerer seems to not center exactly within the upper head cup. It seems to me it should
theoretically be exactly centered.

So I'm trying to troubleshoot the problem.

Are "angular" cartridge bearings a good design for threadless type headsets?

Any thoughts?

I'd take the fork back out, yank the cups, and haul the frame to the lbs to get the head tube
faced. I suspect that the bearings are not able to seat properly because of an off-square end on
the head tube.

I thought about that, but is it possible to face a carbon headtube with alloy (I think they are
alloy. Possibly steel?) inserts?

Wayne

Wayne Pein may have said:

Werehatrack said:

I'd take the fork back out, yank the cups, and haul the frame to the lbs to get the head tube
faced. I suspect that the bearings are not able to seat properly because of an off-square end on
the head tube.

I thought about that, but is it possible to face a carbon headtube with alloy (I think they are
alloy. Possibly steel?) inserts?

If the cups aren't square with each other, it had better be possible to face the tube and inserts,
or that frame's never going to be right.

--
My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail. Yes, I have a killfile. If I
don't respond to something, it's also possible that I'm busy.

Wayne Pein <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Werehatrack said:

Wayne Pein may have said:

I bought a carbon fiber Kestrel Talon SL and have built it myself.

The headset is a Ritchey WCS, their top of the line. It has top and bottom angular cartridge
bearings.

When I adjust the preload on this "threadless" headset to remove play in the fork, the steering
is too tight. When I loosen it, the fork has play.

The headset cups are presumably pressed in fully and tight, and the fork crown race is all the
way on.

When I hold the fork tight in place at the bottom bearing and the top bearing removed, the
steerer seems to not center exactly within the upper head cup. It seems to me it should
theoretically be exactly centered.

So I'm trying to troubleshoot the problem.

Are "angular" cartridge bearings a good design for threadless type headsets?

Any thoughts?

I'd take the fork back out, yank the cups, and haul the frame to the lbs to get the head tube
faced. I suspect that the bearings are not able to seat properly because of an off-square end on
the head tube.

I thought about that, but is it possible to face a carbon headtube with alloy (I think they are
alloy. Possibly steel?) inserts?

Wayne

Of course. There is sacrifical material added for just this purpose.

Wayne Pein said:

I bought a carbon fiber Kestrel Talon SL and have built it myself.

The headset is a Ritchey WCS, their top of the line. It has top and bottom angular cartridge
bearings.

When I adjust the preload on this "threadless" headset to remove play in the fork, the steering is
too tight. When I loosen it, the fork has play.

The headset cups are presumably pressed in fully and tight, and the fork crown race is all
the way on.

When I hold the fork tight in place at the bottom bearing and the top bearing removed, the steerer
seems to not center exactly within the upper head cup. It seems to me it should theoretically be
exactly centered.

So I'm trying to troubleshoot the problem.

Are "angular" cartridge bearings a good design for threadless type headsets?

Ritchey's bearing is a sound design.

With the top of the headset removed, there isn't anything to keep the column centered, so that much
has no significance.

Something is awry - or askew. Perhaps the fork crown race isn't set quite square to the column? A
paint drip under a head cup? Or cups not quite presssed fully? For more on that see also our
discussion last week about frame bore gauges and milling. But I put headsets in Kestrels regularly
and haven't seen that sort of issue.

That symptom also appears when you leave out the conical centering ring from a threadless headset.
Or flip something upside down- such as a crown race. Seriously.

--
Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org Open every day since 1 April, 1971

"Wayne Pein" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I bought a carbon fiber Kestrel Talon SL and have built it myself.

The headset is a Ritchey WCS, their top of the line. It has top and bottom angular cartridge
bearings.

When I adjust the preload on this "threadless" headset to remove play in the fork, the steering is
too tight. When I loosen it, the fork has play.

The headset cups are presumably pressed in fully and tight, and the fork crown race is all
the way on.

When I hold the fork tight in place at the bottom bearing and the top bearing removed, the steerer
seems to not center exactly within the upper head cup. It seems to me it should theoretically be
exactly centered.

So I'm trying to troubleshoot the problem.

Are "angular" cartridge bearings a good design for threadless type headsets?

I'm assuming you mean caged balls. Make sure the cage is the right side up. It can look right, and
still be wrong. There is no convention (despite what various sources say), I've seen different
orientations from the same manufacturer, on otherwise identical looking models. The only sure way is
to "dry fit" all the headset components.

Peter Cole said:

Quoted message said:

Are "angular" cartridge bearings a good design for threadless type headsets?

I'm assuming you mean caged balls. Make sure the cage is the right side up. It can look right, and
still be wrong. There is no convention (despite what various sources say), I've seen different
orientations from the same manufacturer, on otherwise identical looking models. The only sure way
is to "dry fit" all the headset components.

No, the angular cartridge bearings are cartridge bearings that are designed with and angle rather
that parallel sides.

Wayne

Wayne Pein may have said:

Any thoughts?

Second suggestion: Look inside the head tube and see if there's something, perhaps an accidental
resin drip, that might be bearing on the side of the steerer tube when the slack is taken up.

--
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don't respond to something, it's also possible that I'm busy.

A Muzi said:

Ritchey's bearing is a sound design.

With the top of the headset removed, there isn't anything to keep the column centered, so that
much has no significance.

Something is awry - or askew. Perhaps the fork crown race isn't set quite square to the column? A
paint drip under a head cup? Or cups not quite presssed fully? For more on that see also our
discussion last week about frame bore gauges and milling. But I put headsets in Kestrels regularly
and haven't seen that sort of issue.

I was just at a shop and the mechanic and I made sure the cups and crown race were all seated
properly. We put it together and the steering is still stiff. He's going to put in another headset
this afternoon and see what happens.

Quoted message said:

That symptom also appears when you leave out the conical centering ring from a threadless headset.
Or flip something upside down- such as a crown race. Seriously.

The centering ring is in place. It can also only go in one way so its not possible to screw that up.
And the crown race is also correct. The angular cartridge bearings sorta make putting it together
wrong really hard to do.

Hopefully the new headset he puts in works fine. If not, then it must be the frame/fork. But the
Ritchey WCS headset is new and not cheap, and I guess I'd have to send that back if they'll take
it at Excel.

Wayne

Werehatrack said:

Wayne Pein may have said:

Any thoughts?

Second suggestion: Look inside the head tube and see if there's something, perhaps an accidental
resin drip, that might be bearing on the side of the steerer tube when the slack is taken up.

That's an interesting thought. Obviously worth the effort.

Wayne