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Tavistock 7/12/06

Started by Will Cove · · Last activity · 32 posts · 1,117 views

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UK and Europe
Published
8 December 2006
Last activity
13 December 2006
Original author
Will Cove
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32
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  1. I'm posting this in the hope the cyclist concerned is a member of this
    group, can objectively look at my report of his actions, and can avoid
    making the same mistakes. He might not even know how close he came to
    wiping out big-time. This isn't destructive critisism - I'm just trying
    to highlight how dangerous his actions were in the hope that he and
    anyone else who has this style of riding might see the problem and
    correct their ways before they become another statistic.

    The cyclist concerned was riding on the A386 Plymouth Road from Morrisons
    roundabout to Drake's Statue (junction with the A390) some time between
    4:30 pm and 5:00 pm last night (7/12). He was dressing in dark clothing,
    had no lights, and had a not very effective, taller than wide, rear
    reflector. I first caught sight of him because his bare calves stood out
    slightly in my headlights. If this is you, you managed to put yourself in
    serious danger at least three times in about half a mile. For reference,
    I was driving the Mitsubishi 4x4 that you seemed hell bent on hitting.

    The mini roundabout after Morrisons is offset massively to the left. As I
    was decelerating for that roundabout, you passed me on the left and then
    took the shortest route - i.e. went the wrong way round the roundabout.
    In doing that, you cut straight across the front of my car just as I was
    entering the roundabout. Be grateful that I check my nearside mirror
    before entering a roundabout, because you'd probably been under my wheels
    if I hadn't.

    Just in case you didn't see it, I'll point out that when you rode the
    wrong way round that roundabout, there was a car coming in the other
    direction that had to take avoiding action and that when you left the
    roundabout, you cut across the front of the car two in front of me, who
    also had to brake sharply to avoid you.

    I overtook you shortly after that but kept a close watch on you until you
    disappeared from sight. I suspected that you'd turned off the A386. As I
    approached the road on the left a little before the the river, there was
    a Jag on the other side of the A386 waiting to turn right. Since he was
    holding up a long queue of traffic in his direction and since there was a
    continuous stream of traffic in my direction, I intended doing the
    courteous thing and slowed down to open a gap in front of me. My next
    action would have been to flash my headlights - except at that point you
    moved out of my nearside blind spot (where you'd been tailgating me) and
    started to pass me on the left. I accelerated away and in doing so might
    have saved your life. Let me project what might have happened if I hadn't
    checked my nearside mirror at that point and had not seen you:

    I'd have flashed the Jag, who would have passed in front of me. At that
    stage he couldn't see you and you couldn't see him because my car was in
    the way. The driver probably wouldn't have seen you at all because from
    his perspective the road was clear and his attention would have been on
    the road into which he was turning. Judging by the cavalier manner in
    which you handled the roundabout, I suspect that you wouldn't have been
    able to stop. If you were lucky the Jag would have gone far enough for
    you to run into his wing because otherwise you'd have gone under it.

    If that was you, please get yourself some lights. Don't overtake at the
    approach to junctions (Highway Code, rule 143). While you're at it,
    please get yourself a copy of the Highway Code (or visit
    http://www.highwaycode.gov.uk/) and read it.

  2. Will Cove said:

    I'm posting this in the hope the cyclist concerned is a member of this
    group

    Dirty, stinking POBs don't post here!

  3. In article <[email hidden]>
    Will Cove <[email hidden]> wrote:
    <snip>

    Quoted message said:

    I was driving the Mitsubishi 4x4 that you seemed hell bent on hitting.


    Oh look, a tractor driver.

  4. Rob Morley <[email hidden]> wrote in news:MPG.1fe36a4a1bc3c5a98a932
    @news.individual.net:

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    I was driving the Mitsubishi 4x4 that you seemed hell bent on hitting.


    Oh look, a tractor driver.

    I also drive a white van and use the 4x4 to tow a caravan - so want to
    enlighten us with even more of your bigotry?

  5. On 08 Dec 2006 09:12:43 GMT

    Will Cove said:

    The cyclist concerned was riding on the A386 Plymouth Road from
    Morrisons roundabout to Drake's Statue (junction with the A390) some
    time between 4:30 pm and 5:00 pm last night (7/12).

    I was actually up on Whitchurch Down (without the bike) around
    that time last night - a little over a mile away. So obviously
    I didn't see it.

    But knowing that road well, it's entirely possible that your account
    is a spin on something that could alternatively be spun as
    "was passing the usual line of stationary motons, ready as always
    to take quick evasive action if one of them started to move".

    --
    not me guv

  6. In news:[email hidden],
    Will Cove <[email hidden]> typed:

    Quoted message said:

    My next action would have been to flash my
    headlights - except at that point you moved out of my nearside blind
    spot (where you'd been tailgating me) and started to pass me on the
    left. I accelerated away and in doing so might have saved your life.
    Let me project what might have happened if I hadn't checked my
    nearside mirror at that point and had not seen you:

    I'd have flashed the Jag, who would have passed in front of me. At
    that stage he couldn't see you and you couldn't see him because my
    car was in the way. The driver probably wouldn't have seen you at all
    because from his perspective the road was clear and his attention
    would have been on the road into which he was turning.

    Quoted message said:

    If that was you, please get yourself some lights. Don't overtake at
    the approach to junctions (Highway Code, rule 143). While you're at
    it, please get yourself a copy of the Highway Code (or visit
    http://www.highwaycode.gov.uk/) and read it.

    But why would you yourself not be acting in accordance with Highway
    Code, rule 90 - which tells you only to flash your headlights to let
    other road users know you are there.

    Why also do you presume that the driver of the Jag would not have read
    and be acting upon Highway Code, rule 91 - which says that if another
    driver flashes his headlights, he should not assume that it is a signal
    to go and that he should use his own judgemant and proceed carefully.

    --
    Bob

  7. Will Cove wrote in news:[email hidden]:

    Quoted message said:

    I'm posting this in the hope the cyclist concerned is a member of this
    group

    I doubt an unlit POB would be a member of this group. Its mostly cake-
    munching, badger-counting CTC types.

    Hey, hows about posting a ride report? I'm sure someone could lend you a
    bike.

  8. Nick Kew <[email hidden]> wrote in news:l64o44-mfu.ln1
    @grimnir.webthing.com:

    Quoted message said:

    But knowing that road well, it's entirely possible that your account
    is a spin on something that could alternatively be spun as
    "was passing the usual line of stationary motons, ready as always
    to take quick evasive action if one of them started to move".

    Not with the traffic moving at ten to twenty mph!

  9. Will Cove said:

    A load of bilge because he couldn't shake a cyclist in traffic.

    There there.

  10. Will Cove said:

    My next
    action would have been to flash my headlights

    The one and only time I've been knocked off my bike was when I was
    cycling in a shared use cycle/bus lane. Some fool in the parrallel
    lane flased a car waiting to turn right, and without looking the car
    crossed the cycle lane and hit the rear of my bike.

    If you think flashing a car for any reason, other than to make them
    you aware of your presence, is right, you need to study the highway
    code.

  11. Will Cove said:

    For reference, I was driving the Mitsubishi 4x4 that you seemed hell
    bent on hitting.

    *snip*

    Quoted message said:

    My next action would have been to flash my headlights

    Did you need to tell the oncoming driver that you were there? If not,
    you were driving contrary to the Highway Code points 90 and 91.

    Quoted message said:

    - except at that point you moved out of my nearside blind spot
    (where you'd been tailgating me) and started to pass me on the
    left. I accelerated away and in doing so might have saved your life.

    Have you considered that if you weren't driving a 4x4 or people
    carrier, the cyclist would have been visible behind you to the
    oncoming driver and vice versa, and that others would also have a
    better view of the road, not one partially obscured by your choice of
    vehicle?

    Chris
    --
    Chris Eilbeck

  12. Will Cove said:

    Rob Morley <[email hidden]> wrote in news:MPG.1fe36a4a1bc3c5a98a932
    @news.individual.net:

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    I was driving the Mitsubishi 4x4 that you seemed hell bent on
    hitting.

    Oh look, a tractor driver.

    I also drive a white van and use the 4x4 to tow a caravan - so want
    to enlighten us with even more of your bigotry?

    Yes, a 4x4 is necessary to tow a caravan, been that way for many
    years. All HGVs are all-wheel-drive too because it's just not
    possible to tow something any other way.

    Chris
    --
    Chris Eilbeck

  13. Will Cove said:

    Nick Kew <[email hidden]> wrote in news:l64o44-mfu.ln1
    @grimnir.webthing.com:

    Quoted message said:

    But knowing that road well, it's entirely possible that your
    account is a spin on something that could alternatively be spun as
    "was passing the usual line of stationary motons, ready as always
    to take quick evasive action if one of them started to move".

    Not with the traffic moving at ten to twenty mph!

    Do you have *any* idea how fast it is possible to go on a bike? Even
    a fat unfit oaf like me can more than outpace your average traffic
    queue much to the displeasure of those in their expensive metal boxes.

    Chris
    --
    Chris Eilbeck

  14. Tom Crispin <[email hidden]> wrote in
    news:[email hidden]:

    Quoted message said:

    The one and only time I've been knocked off my bike was when I was
    cycling in a shared use cycle/bus lane. Some fool in the parrallel
    lane flased a car waiting to turn right, and without looking the car
    crossed the cycle lane and hit the rear of my bike.

    Then don't overtake on the approach to junctions. Ride defensively and
    try to anticipate what other road users are going to do. Unless I've
    misread your words, the "fool"'s conduct meant that two things were most
    likely. Either the "fool" was about to turn left across your path, or he
    was giving way to let someone cross in front of him. In either case, a
    crunch would be likely if you cycled beyond the guy in the parallel lane.
    AFAICT, your risk management failed. Irrespective of who was technically
    at fault, you could have avoided the accident.

    Quoted message said:


    If you think flashing a car for any reason, other than to make them
    you aware of your presence, is right, you need to study the highway
    code.

    Rules 90 and 91 of the HC are advisory only and haven't agreed with what
    happens on the ground for decades. In daylight, I beckon other drivers to
    invite them to proceed - but that doesn't work at night. While it's not
    wise to flash your headlights where that could be misunderstood the case
    where one vehicle indicates to turn right and an oncoming vehicles slows
    down and then gives a quick flash is rarely one of them. There are often
    instances where one vehicle is causing an obstruction and letting that
    vehicle go gets the traffic moving again with little or no cost to
    yourself. Helping others in such situations is a part of something called
    "courtesy" (aka "consideration"😉.

    That said, it doesn't matter how good or bad my driving is. My actions in
    this case are commonplace and predictable. Even if my driving is [censored], I
    didn't collide with that guy and managed to neutralise his actions on at
    least two occasions despite his best efforts.

    Now, I didn't post to have a go at the guy, I posted because I want him
    to understand what could have happened if things had been slightly
    different so that he can take stock and hopefully keep safe. He looked
    like a serious cyclist. His bike looked a lot more expensive than either
    of mine and bare calves/lycra shorts often indicate someone who does a
    lot of cycling - and who thus might be a member of this group.

  15. "Will Cove" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Now, I didn't post to have a go at the guy, I posted because I want him
    to understand what could have happened if things had been slightly
    different so that he can take stock and hopefully keep safe. He looked
    like a serious cyclist. His bike looked a lot more expensive than either
    of mine and bare calves/lycra shorts often indicate someone who does a
    lot of cycling - and who thus might be a member of this group.

    In which case, it's even more important that you don't [censored] about letting
    people across without knowing who's about. It's really obvious that you
    completely underestimated the speed of this rider - the expensive bike and
    bare calves/lycra should be a clue that he's likely to be quite quick, and
    thus quite likely to be somewhere near you.

    Like I said to "adder" recently in another place, I'm not in a position to
    have a go at the rider for not using lights etc. But I can try and encourage
    you to think a little more about other road users.

    FWIW I'd guess that if you had flashed the guy, the rider would have noticed
    and taken appropriate avoiding action. We already know he's taking junctions
    somewhat yobbily - IME that's normally accompanied with something of a clue
    about how to get out of problems, if only because he needs that skill to get
    out of situations he'll put himself in on a regular basis.

    (on a different note the car driver who flashed the lorry out when I was
    coming down the hill the other way at the speed limit didn't understand why
    I had a go at him. He didn't get why he should have checked before doing
    what he did. Fortunately the lorry driver did have his eyes open, so ignored
    the guy.)

    clive

  16. Chris Eilbeck wrote in news:[email hidden]:

    Quoted message said:

    Did you need to tell the oncoming driver that you were there? If not,
    you were driving contrary to the Highway Code points 90 and 91.

    Yebbut if people flashed their lights to say "I'm about to proceed" (or
    whatever the highway code says) then it just causes misunderstanding.

    An Iranian friend kept having peds walk out in front of him before he
    learnt that flashing headlights has a different meaning.

    The Highway codes version does make more sense, and it prolly is a good
    idea to change current 'on street' practice, but it seems silly for the HC
    to lie about the meaning.

  17. Will Cove said:
    Quoted message said:

    The one and only time I've been knocked off my bike was when I was
    cycling in a shared use cycle/bus lane. Some fool in the parrallel
    lane flased a car waiting to turn right, and without looking the car
    crossed the cycle lane and hit the rear of my bike.

    Then don't overtake on the approach to junctions. Ride defensively and
    try to anticipate what other road users are going to do. Unless I've
    misread your words, the "fool"'s conduct meant that two things were most
    likely. Either the "fool" was about to turn left across your path, or he
    was giving way to let someone cross in front of him. In either case, a
    crunch would be likely if you cycled beyond the guy in the parallel lane.
    AFAICT, your risk management failed. Irrespective of who was technically
    at fault, you could have avoided the accident.

    Recall that the car turning right hit the rear of my bike - not the
    side or front. In other words, I was virtually across the box
    junction when I was struck.

    The driver of the vehicle which hit me hadn't looked. If she had,
    she'd have seen me ahead.

    The driver of the vehicle should not have flashed. It may have
    distracted the driver who hit me, and given her the impression that it
    was safe to proceed.

    I had looked. I looked at the driver in the car waiting to turn
    right, and was surprised when I saw the flash reflected on the side of
    her car. I could not believe it when she started to turn while I was
    in front of her. I was even more shocked when she continued forward
    and struck me.

    It all happened some years ago. If I knew then what I know now about
    safe cycling techniques and the perils of cycle/bus lanes I may indeed
    not have suffered a buckled wheel. Even so, the fault was not mine.
    The driver was the one not looking, and she was entirely to blame for
    the assault.

  18. Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Some fool in the parrallel lane flased a car waiting to turn right,
    and without looking the car crossed the cycle lane and hit the rear
    of my bike.

    Ride defensively and
    try to anticipate what other road users are going to do.<snippity>
    AFAICT, your risk management failed. Irrespective of who was
    technically at fault, you could have avoided the accident.

    Same thing happened to me. Fortunately I had the brakes covered and hit
    the car at about 0.25mph. Still, if the driver hadn't seen me coming and
    slammed on the brakes, blocking the entire lane, I'd have made it round the
    back. A good learning experience thobut, and one thats kept me alive
    since. I just keep telling myself that all the braking-for-nothing and
    subsequent acceleration to cruising speed is good training.

  19. Mark Thompson said the following on 08/12/2006 21:26:

    Quoted message said:

    Yebbut if people flashed their lights to say "I'm about to proceed" (or
    whatever the highway code says) then it just causes misunderstanding.

    Unfortunately this is one of those cases where what happens in real life
    is dangerously opposite to what the HC says. Yes, a flash of the
    headlights can cause misunderstanding, but 95% or more of drivers know
    what the flasher (pardon the phrase!) intends, or what they think the
    flasher means.

    In real life, each individual situation has to be taken in context.
    Flashing someone to turn right across you when you're in a slow-moving
    queue of traffic ("I'm letting you go"😉 is completely different to
    flashing someone who is about to pull out in front of you as you're
    driving along a main road ("Are you aware of me coming towards you?"😉.
    The former is one of the unwritten rules of driving in the UK and all
    cyclists must surely be aware of the possibility of being cut across in
    that situation, whilst the latter is one of the written rules, and is
    dangerous because the warning can be incorrectly taken as "I'm letting
    you out."

    I wonder how many people here have flashed their headlights with the HC
    definition in mind, but kept in mind whilst doing so that their actions
    are likely to be taken as meaning the exact opposite?

    --
    Paul Boyd
    http://www.paul-boyd.co.uk/

  20. Paul Boyd wrote on 09/12/2006 07:53 +0100:

    Quoted message said:


    Unfortunately this is one of those cases where what happens in real life
    is dangerously opposite to what the HC says. Yes, a flash of the
    headlights can cause misunderstanding, but 95% or more of drivers know
    what the flasher (pardon the phrase!) intends, or what they think the
    flasher means.

    I was always taught that flashing the headlights had no meaning and that
    it was still my responsibility to check the road and ensure it was safe
    to proceed irrespective of what another driver might be attempting to
    indicate to me with his headlights.

    --
    Tony

    "...has many omissions and contains much that is apocryphal, or at least
    wildly inaccurate..."
    Douglas Adams; The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy

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