FTP Holy Grail

rmur17 said:

okay I think most folks here are aware that Vo2max sets our upper aerobic limit. Threshold is a percentage of Vo2max - always less than 100% - darn it 🙂 .

If one's goal is strictly focused on increasing FTP as much as possible, then what weekly or monthly (or blocks for that matter) mixture of L4 and L5 is recommended?

Can one's FTP potential be maximized without ANY L5 work?

From what I've read of other's experience focusing on L5 can lead to a drop in FTP which is exactly what I'm trying to avoid.

p.s. Yes I know you can ride an infinite amount of L2 or plenty of L3 to perhaps get to 95% of potential level but I'm talking about that final piece.

I'll be following this thread closely, as my training plan this winter involves high L3 to L4 only.

postal_bag said:

I'll be following this thread closely, as my training plan this winter involves high L3 to L4 only.

yes I'm looking well ahead to spring now. No way I'd engage a flat-out FTP assault right now. I'm thinking the last three months before important races..

rmur17 said:

From what I've read of other's experience focusing on L5 can lead to a drop in FTP which is exactly what I'm trying to avoid.

Well, I guess it depends on how you define 'focus'. What I've both observed and experienced first hand is that 'focusing' on L5 can result in an increase of FTP, even after doing a steady (say 12 week) focus on longer (say 16-25 minute) intervals, as long as some longer intervals are still incorporated.

Typically during a period of 'focus' on L5, I'd do 2-3 L5 workouts per week, one with a 40 bout of high tempo thrown on top, then 1 L4 and one L3/4 workout.

Even during this period, however, my goal is increasing FTP--not 5 minute power. If FTP is high enough, the 5 minute power ends up taking care of itself--unless you're specifically training for a 5 minute event (and if you're training for a 5 minute event, it better not take you 5 minutes!!).

rmur17 said:

Can one's FTP potential be maximized without ANY L5 work?

I truly don't think so.

I'm going to debate about the use of L5 dedicated workouts all year round. But as for the use of dedicated L5 workouts *somewhere* in the overall yearly plan, I think not visiting this level represents a risk. At least one I'm not willing to take.

In the same time, I tend to believe that by focusing at improving L5 capacity too much, one might steepen power/duration curve too much, thus loosing (*temporarly*) L4 capacity.

A 40k specialist, during competition season, can probably get away very well with some L5 bouts melted into longer L4 segments (especially at the end of the segments. That can be very beneficial). No dedicated L5 workout per se.

But with a 10miler, I would not be willing to use this approach.

Once while trying to explain to a good of triathlete why they where doing sprints on a bike a very good coach said, "If you can't sprint at 50km/hr you will never TT at 40km/hr".

If your FTP is 300 watts would you rather achieve that at 85% your MAP or 75% your MAP? I believe cutting out all L5 work would be a mistake. Maybe reduce it to a maintence level but don't cut it out.

Try a block of lower level riding this will increase the % of FT to vo2max and will make it easier to raise FT and vo2. Next up I think vo2 should be the next focus because you are in effect raising the bar. THEN FT work should be next, you will have a strong base and a high bar (vo2) to aim for.

lower levels, vo2 then FT/ LT

RipVanCommittee said:

Well, I guess it depends on how you define 'focus'. What I've both observed and experienced first hand is that 'focusing' on L5 can result in an increase of FTP, even after doing a steady (say 12 week) focus on longer (say 16-25 minute) intervals, as long as some longer intervals are still incorporated.

Typically during a period of 'focus' on L5, I'd do 2-3 L5 workouts per week, one with a 40 bout of high tempo thrown on top, then 1 L4 and one L3/4 workout.

Even during this period, however, my goal is increasing FTP--not 5 minute power. If FTP is high enough, the 5 minute power ends up taking care of itself--unless you're specifically training for a 5 minute event (and if you're training for a 5 minute event, it better not take you 5 minutes!!).

By focus yes I'd mean probably three L5 workouts per week (versus none or maintenance). It sounds like you have a nice formula there: 2/3 L5 with one regular L4 and one UL3-LL4 ...

And the L5 training would be with the goal of maximizing FTP .. not pure L5 power per say (sounds like that's your approach as well).

How long would you typically sustain that schedule? 4-6 weeks?

rmur17 said:

By focus yes I'd mean probably three L5 workouts per week (versus none or maintenance). It sounds like you have a nice formula there: 2/3 L5 with one regular L4 and one UL3-LL4 ...

And the L5 training would be with the goal of maximizing FTP .. not pure L5 power per say (sounds like that's your approach as well).

How long would you typically sustain that schedule? 4-6 weeks?

I typically 'schedule' it for a 6 week block, and really start paying close attention around week 4-5 to see just how much levelling off occurs. If there were no/little levelling off--I'd keep going! But, realistically, if one is starting this with this a solid level of fitness, 5-6 weeks seems to reach the plateau, and is the point at which I'd probably shake thinks up.

Funny, as I was in just in the midst of week one of this, and trying to forget that Vo2 intervals hurt--I was thinking about your original question (basically, thinking--hey, maybe I should skip this workout!!). Here's the rub: I think if you did a steady diet of L3/L4 and no L5, eventually, the divide between your FTP and your P@ Vo2 would become nil--but one of the reasons is that your PVo2 would decrease from a lack of stimulus.

In other words, I'd rather be at 87% of 380W than 99% of 320W!

most of what i've read suggests that VO2max has a ceiling but you do need to work on it to achieve your max... sort of keep it topped up... but that the addaptation is very fast, i.e. 4-6 weeks. from experience i think you need to do maintenance all the time.. and if you don't do maintenance then it's easy to step into them too fast, FTP tanks and you can go kaboom very easily (over train)...

RipVanCommittee said:

I typically 'schedule' it for a 6 week block, and really start paying close attention around week 4-5 to see just how much levelling off occurs. If there were no/little levelling off--I'd keep going! But, realistically, if one is starting this with this a solid level of fitness, 5-6 weeks seems to reach the plateau, and is the point at which I'd probably shake thinks up.

Funny, as I was in just in the midst of week one of this, and trying to forget that Vo2 intervals hurt--I was thinking about your original question (basically, thinking--hey, maybe I should skip this workout!!). Here's the rub: I think if you did a steady diet of L3/L4 and no L5, eventually, the divide between your FTP and your P@ Vo2 would become nil--but one of the reasons is that your PVo2 would decrease from a lack of stimulus.

In other words, I'd rather be at 87% of 380W than 99% of 320W!

RVC,
Thanks for the advice. Uhm I don't think P@Vo2max will drop right to FT. I haven't done any L5 or higher work since May 2005 (started with a medical problem but now is purely psychological 🙂 ).

My 5MP power (proxy for P@Vo2max) is 1.22 FTP versus 1.27 FTP back then. That is, it's dropped around 4% relative to FTP ... and 7% in absolute terms without any direct training ... but it still well above FTP.

What is the 'normal' range for 5MP versus FTP anyway? Or P@Vo2max versus FTP?

rmur17 said:

RVC,
Thanks for the advice. Uhm I don't think P@Vo2max will drop right to FT. I haven't done any L5 or higher work since May 2005 (started with a medical problem but now is purely psychological 🙂 ).

My 5MP power (proxy for P@Vo2max) is 1.22 FTP versus 1.27 FTP back then. That is, it's dropped around 4% relative to FTP ... and 7% in absolute terms without any direct training ... but it still well above FTP.

What is the 'normal' range for 5MP versus FTP anyway? Or P@Vo2max versus FTP?

Yeah, I know the numbers I put up where a little extreme--but mainly to illustrate the point to force you to sweat out some vo2 intervals!!

Looking @ N=10, I'm coming up with 1.26 +/- .03. I'm sure AC could better answer than question, though, having way more files.

rmur17 said:

RVC,
Thanks for the advice. Uhm I don't think P@Vo2max will drop right to FT. I haven't done any L5 or higher work since May 2005 (started with a medical problem but now is purely psychological 🙂 ).

My 5MP power (proxy for P@Vo2max) is 1.22 FTP versus 1.27 FTP back then. That is, it's dropped around 4% relative to FTP ... and 7% in absolute terms without any direct training ... but it still well above FTP.

What is the 'normal' range for 5MP versus FTP anyway? Or P@Vo2max versus FTP?

Hi, have questions on L4 and L5
try :www.biketechreview.com/performance/mitochondria.htm .
www.biketechreview.com/performance/base.htm . Have fun😄 Musher

RipVanCommittee said:

Yeah, I know the numbers I put up where a little extreme--but mainly to illustrate the point to force you to sweat out some vo2 intervals!!

Looking @ N=10, I'm coming up with 1.26 +/- .03. I'm sure AC could better answer than question, though, having way more files.

Maybe better than considering what's "normal" is to consider the extremes. So in that vein, I'm at 1.18 (for 5 min power/functional threshold power), whereas my wife is (was) at 1.44 (!).

musher said:

Hi, have questions on L4 and L5
try :www.biketechreview.com/performance/mitochondria.htm .
www.biketechreview.com/performance/base.htm . Have fun😄 Musher

I like the way that Kirk glosses over the fact that Dudley et al. studied rats by referring to them as "test subjects".

acoggan said:

I like the way that Kirk glosses over the fact that Dudley et al. studied rats by referring to them as "test subjects".

Thas is why i feel like a train " rat " most of the time:eek: .

acoggan said:

I like the way that Kirk glosses over the fact that Dudley et al. studied rats by referring to them as "test subjects".

were they Elite rats? 🙂 And drug-tested?

acoggan said:

Maybe better than considering what's "normal" is to consider the extremes. So in that vein, I'm at 1.18 (for 5 min power/functional threshold power), whereas my wife is (was) at 1.44 (!).

Just kind of throwing this out there, but the talk about relative 5 min power vs FTP made me think to go look at the power profiling chart and see how even levels of each compare. It looks like even rankings of 5MP vs FTP have a ratio of roughly 1.18-1.19, which you seem to imply is at the low end of what's "normal" for this ratio.

Comments? I don't really have a point to make with this post, just throwing it out there to add to the discussion...

rr9876 said:

Just kind of throwing this out there, but the talk about relative 5 min power vs FTP made me think to go look at the power profiling chart and see how even levels of each compare. It looks like even rankings of 5MP vs FTP have a ratio of roughly 1.18-1.19, which you seem to imply is at the low end of what's "normal" for this ratio.

Comments? I don't really have a point to make with this post, just throwing it out there to add to the discussion...

The power profiling tables were created by anchoring the top and bottom of each column based on the known performance abilities of world champion/world record holders and untrained person, respectively. That this approach apparently creates a slight (i.e., 1-2 rows) skew isn't all that surprising when you consider that 1) 5 min power still contains a healthy "dose" of anaerobic work capacity, which probably tends to be higher in trained cyclists than in untrained persons, and 2) most people probably haven't/can't push their functional threshold power as close to their VO2max as the person holding the world hour record. IOW, the bottom end of the 5 min scale is probably "stretched" downward a little bit, while the top end of the functional threshold power scale is probably "stretched" upward a little bit, resulting in a slight offset from what you would likely get if you could ever test the hundreds and hundreds of cyclists you'd need to to flesh out the table using that approach.

acoggan said:

The power profiling tables were created by anchoring the top and bottom of each column based on the known performance abilities of world champion/world record holders and untrained person, respectively. That this approach apparently creates a slight (i.e., 1-2 rows) skew isn't all that surprising when you consider that 1) 5 min power still contains a healthy "dose" of anaerobic work capacity, which probably tends to be higher in trained cyclists than in untrained persons, and 2) most people probably haven't/can't push their functional threshold power as close to their VO2max as the person holding the world hour record. IOW, the bottom end of the 5 min scale is probably "stretched" downward a little bit, while the top end of the functional threshold power scale is probably "stretched" upward a little bit, resulting in a slight offset from what you would likely get if you could ever test the hundreds and hundreds of cyclists you'd need to to flesh out the table using that approach.

okay - I would have looked at the table ratio's as well ...

I've gone back and checked my training logs for fall 2004 & winter 2005 over which time I know my 5MP and probably FTP were at all-time highs. I say probably for FT as I was doing weekly hard efforts in the 20-25MP range and plenty of hard 1.5-2 hr SST ... but I never did attempt a full-on 1-hr or 40k test. CP-Monod was giving me some crazy high CP #'s I know that!

I also noted that over summer to early fall 2004 I did regular L5 work - often twice weekly in split workouts either preceding or after L4 work. I stopped those in October and switched to primarily SST with one upper L4 workout per week. Despite dropping the L5 work, my P-D curve in the 20min to 2-hr range went up nicely (~4%) thru Dec-Feb. I didn't do a 5MP test but my sense was that it wouldn't have dropped much if any from the fall. That is, I believe the solid SST and some upper L4 were maintaining that range well.

My feeling is that the summer/fall L5 work created the headroom for my FTP to rise in the period of question. An additional feeling: my perception lately is that, while doing upper L4 work (1.05 IF), I'm close to CV limits (breathing heavily, HR within 8-10bpm of max) rather than 'the legs'. Pardon the terminology!

Seeing my flattish TT events are very much dependent on pure FTP, I think I should follow more of a 'reverse' than typical power level progression. That is, get in a block of solid L5 (six weeks) in say March/April, then switch back to an SST/L4 mixture in the pre-season build and peak (with much more/harder L4 as "A" events approach).

What sayeth the gallery? 🙂