Mountain Bikes · Public discussion

Mountain Bikers Upset Over Losing their Illegally-Built Trails!

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Mountain Bikes
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27 November 2006
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Mike Vandeman
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  1. Locked gate now restricts access to land near airport

    By Michael Burge
    UNION-TRIBUNE STAFF WRITER

    November 25, 2006

    CARLSBAD – A group of mountain-bike riders who used a clandestine web
    of trails for two decades is trying to save them, even as the paths
    are being fenced off and bulldozed away.

    CRISSY PASCUAL / Union-Tribune
    Josh Lenahan (left) and Stefan Rest (right) stopped to talk to Michael
    Hansen of San Marcos. The two are trying to save some mountain-bike
    trails.
    Called Flightline, for their proximity to McClellan-Palomar Airport,
    the trails had been fashioned over time by riders who built bridges
    and other features on brush-covered hills that, to them, were of
    questionable ownership.

    That ownership is no longer in question, as 300 acres recently was
    transferred by the county to the nonprofit Center for Natural Lands
    Management. The Fallbrook-based nonprofit administers the property
    east of El Camino Real and north of Palomar Airport Road, preserving
    it as natural habitat.

    Much of the land was owned by the county, and when developers of the
    nearby 195-acre Carlsbad Oaks North business park won approval for
    their project in 2002, the land was set aside as permanent open space
    with restricted use.

    Hearing of the land switch, the mountain bikers began corresponding
    with Markus Spiegelberg, the San Diego manager for the land management
    center, about preserving the trails. Two weeks ago, the bikers found a
    fence and a locked gate at the trailhead.

    “This is him working with us,” Josh Lenahan, a trail rider from
    Carlsbad, said sarcastically as he stood at the sealed trailhead on
    Orion Way near the Carlsbad skate park.

    “There have been hundreds of hours (put into) the trails here,” he
    said, adding that people who built them tried to respect the natural
    environment, and now their work has been obliterated.

    Stefan Rest, a mountain biker upset by the trails' demise, has
    dedicated a Web site, www.rideflightline.com., to saving them.

    His online petition has more than 1,300 names, including some from
    Canada and France, and even from Jersey, an island in the English
    Channel.

    He said there's nothing comparable in the county, even in the
    backcountry.

    Rest discouraged riders from using the trails while his group worked
    with Spiegelberg to retain access, and posted signs warning people
    they risked a fine and the loss of their bike if they rode in the
    area.

    He saw Spiegelberg's fence as a betrayal.

    “We're upset that this guy told us to work with (him), get everybody
    to stop riding, and all of a sudden we stop getting correspondence and
    the chain link went up,” Rest said.

    Spiegelberg said 100 acres east of the Carlsbad Safety Center near the
    city's skate park is controlled by an agreement, called a conservation
    easement, that bars biking, horseback riding and motorcycling.

    That's why the fence went up.

    Spiegelberg said he found some interesting features when he walked
    through the property recently before taking it over.

    “One (trail) was pretty intense. It had bridges and switchbacks and
    lots of cleared vegetation,” he said, all potential violations of
    state or federal law.

    “I posted it and said you're on the land illegally, stop, and I got
    5,000 e-mails.”

    Mountain bikers weren't the only ones taking advantage of the natural
    space. Employees of local businesses and business owners hiked, ran or
    rode there on a regular basis. Spiegelberg also found encampments of
    homeless people.

    A wild-west attitude had prevailed that the land was open to anyone to
    use.

    “You get this history of use,” Spiegelberg said. “Nobody kicks them
    off. A motorcycle would go through there, or a mountain biker.”

    He said it would have been better if people who used the trails were
    involved when the Carlsbad Oaks North project processed its
    environmental impact report, so they could have been considered. But
    because such people usually aren't organized, they learn about such a
    process after decisions are made.

    Rest and his group are learning that now.

    “The uniqueness of this is it's in the middle of where we all live,”
    Rest, a Carlsbad resident, said. “There aren't many places in the
    county where you can pay $600,000 for your starter home and learn you
    can't ride in your backyard.”

    Spiegelberg has engaged the riders in e-mail conversations on their
    Web site, calling it “a very friendly back and forth.” But for the
    mountain bikers to use the land, they would have to work with the
    county to rewrite the property agreement, he said.

    “If they're going to come back in here and develop a trail, we'll
    develop a trail that's sturdy and safe,” he said.

    And he said he hopes everyone can get through this rough patch.

    “A lot of people are really mad at us but essentially we're all on the
    same page,” he said. “We're trying to find the last pieces of land and
    manage it.”

    That didn't help Michael Hansen, who was disappointed when he showed
    up to ride last week and encountered that gate.

    “I've been coaching for three or four years and riding since '88,”
    said Hansen, 39, a semi-pro rider who works for American Airlines.
    “That's the reason we moved to this area. Now we're losing this, too.”
    Michael Burge: (760) 476-8230; [email hidden]
    ===
    I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
    humans ("pure habitat"😉. Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
    years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

    Please don't put a cell phone next to any part of your body that you are fond of!

    http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

  2. Thanks for the link - I will pass this on to other mountain bikers to
    help the cause for biking...

    Mike Vandeman said:

    Locked gate now restricts access to land near airport

    By Michael Burge
    UNION-TRIBUNE STAFF WRITER

    November 25, 2006

    CARLSBAD – A group of mountain-bike riders who used a clandestine web
    of trails for two decades is trying to save them, even as the paths
    are being fenced off and bulldozed away.

    CRISSY PASCUAL / Union-Tribune
    Josh Lenahan (left) and Stefan Rest (right) stopped to talk to Michael
    Hansen of San Marcos. The two are trying to save some mountain-bike
    trails.
    Called Flightline, for their proximity to McClellan-Palomar Airport,
    the trails had been fashioned over time by riders who built bridges
    and other features on brush-covered hills that, to them, were of
    questionable ownership.

    That ownership is no longer in question, as 300 acres recently was
    transferred by the county to the nonprofit Center for Natural Lands
    Management. The Fallbrook-based nonprofit administers the property
    east of El Camino Real and north of Palomar Airport Road, preserving
    it as natural habitat.

    Much of the land was owned by the county, and when developers of the
    nearby 195-acre Carlsbad Oaks North business park won approval for
    their project in 2002, the land was set aside as permanent open space
    with restricted use.

    Hearing of the land switch, the mountain bikers began corresponding
    with Markus Spiegelberg, the San Diego manager for the land management
    center, about preserving the trails. Two weeks ago, the bikers found a
    fence and a locked gate at the trailhead.

    “This is him working with us,” Josh Lenahan, a trail rider from
    Carlsbad, said sarcastically as he stood at the sealed trailhead on
    Orion Way near the Carlsbad skate park.

    “There have been hundreds of hours (put into) the trails here,” he
    said, adding that people who built them tried to respect the natural
    environment, and now their work has been obliterated.

    Stefan Rest, a mountain biker upset by the trails' demise, has
    dedicated a Web site, www.rideflightline.com., to saving them.

    His online petition has more than 1,300 names, including some from
    Canada and France, and even from Jersey, an island in the English
    Channel.

    He said there's nothing comparable in the county, even in the
    backcountry.

    Rest discouraged riders from using the trails while his group worked
    with Spiegelberg to retain access, and posted signs warning people
    they risked a fine and the loss of their bike if they rode in the
    area.

    He saw Spiegelberg's fence as a betrayal.

    “We're upset that this guy told us to work with (him), get everybody
    to stop riding, and all of a sudden we stop getting correspondence and
    the chain link went up,” Rest said.

    Spiegelberg said 100 acres east of the Carlsbad Safety Center near the
    city's skate park is controlled by an agreement, called a conservation
    easement, that bars biking, horseback riding and motorcycling.

    That's why the fence went up.

    Spiegelberg said he found some interesting features when he walked
    through the property recently before taking it over.

    “One (trail) was pretty intense. It had bridges and switchbacks and
    lots of cleared vegetation,” he said, all potential violations of
    state or federal law.

    “I posted it and said you're on the land illegally, stop, and I got
    5,000 e-mails.”

    Mountain bikers weren't the only ones taking advantage of the natural
    space. Employees of local businesses and business owners hiked, ran or
    rode there on a regular basis. Spiegelberg also found encampments of
    homeless people.

    A wild-west attitude had prevailed that the land was open to anyone to
    use.

    “You get this history of use,” Spiegelberg said. “Nobody kicks them
    off. A motorcycle would go through there, or a mountain biker.”

    He said it would have been better if people who used the trails were
    involved when the Carlsbad Oaks North project processed its
    environmental impact report, so they could have been considered. But
    because such people usually aren't organized, they learn about such a
    process after decisions are made.

    Rest and his group are learning that now.

    “The uniqueness of this is it's in the middle of where we all live,”
    Rest, a Carlsbad resident, said. “There aren't many places in the
    county where you can pay $600,000 for your starter home and learn you
    can't ride in your backyard.”

    Spiegelberg has engaged the riders in e-mail conversations on their
    Web site, calling it “a very friendly back and forth.” But for the
    mountain bikers to use the land, they would have to work with the
    county to rewrite the property agreement, he said.

    “If they're going to come back in here and develop a trail, we'll
    develop a trail that's sturdy and safe,” he said.

    And he said he hopes everyone can get through this rough patch.

    “A lot of people are really mad at us but essentially we're all on the
    same page,” he said. “We're trying to find the last pieces of land and
    manage it.”

    That didn't help Michael Hansen, who was disappointed when he showed
    up to ride last week and encountered that gate.

    “I've been coaching for three or four years and riding since '88,”
    said Hansen, 39, a semi-pro rider who works for American Airlines.
    “That's the reason we moved to this area. Now we're losing this, too.”
    Michael Burge: (760) 476-8230; [email hidden]
    ===
    I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
    humans ("pure habitat"😉. Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
    years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

    Please don't put a cell phone next to any part of your body that you are fond of!

    http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

  3. Environ said:

    Thanks for the link - I will pass this on to other mountain bikers to
    help the cause for biking...

    What do you mean "other mountain bikers"? The dorks who built those
    "trails" are a bunch of morons who were a)trespassing b)damaging
    private property and c)propagating a negative image for those who
    choose to mountain bike. If the property owner asked me to help tear
    that [censored] down, I'd volunteer.

    JD

  4. "Mike Vandeman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Locked gate now restricts access to land near airport

    By Michael Burge
    UNION-TRIBUNE STAFF WRITER

    November 25, 2006

    CARLSBAD - A group of mountain-bike riders who used a clandestine web
    of trails for two decades is trying to save them, even as the paths
    are being fenced off and bulldozed away.

    A narrow biking trail is being removed with a bulldozer? Now folks, that's
    the government way to do things, and Mike approves of it.

  5. In article <[email hidden]>,
    [email hidden] says...

    Quoted message said:


    di said:

    "Mike Vandeman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Locked gate now restricts access to land near airport

    By Michael Burge
    UNION-TRIBUNE STAFF WRITER

    November 25, 2006

    CARLSBAD - A group of mountain-bike riders who used a clandestine web
    of trails for two decades is trying to save them, even as the paths
    are being fenced off and bulldozed away.

    A narrow biking trail is being removed with a bulldozer? Now folks, that's
    the government way to do things, and Mike approves of it.

    Maybe the tunnel vision cause by your severe anti-vandamnan attitude
    kept you from reading the fact that it was PRIVATE PROPERTY, not
    government lands as you have erroneously indicated.

    So when the original article said it was County property when the trails
    were built, it was an error? Or was it an error when it said the new
    management of the land by the trust was controlled by an agreement with
    the County?

    --
    [email hidden] is Joshua Putnam
    <http://www.phred.org/~josh/>
    Braze your own bicycle frames. See
    <http://www.phred.org/~josh/build/build.html>

  6. It is pretty clear from this article that the land is set aside as
    biological mitigation land for an environmental impact to one or more
    special status species or sensitive habitats. If that is the case, and
    the CNLM is going to be the manager of this land under some sort of
    grant arrangement, it is a foregone conclusion that bike riding, and
    probably most other activities that are potentially harmful to the
    specific species being protected, will be restricted. In other words,
    this land is for the use of endangered critters, not for people.

    And yes, in the process of environmental restoration, sometimes you use
    a bulldozer to get to an improved end product. Won't be the first
    time, nor the last.

    Bruce Jensen

  7. "Bruce Jensen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    It is pretty clear from this article that the land is set aside
    as
    biological mitigation land for an environmental impact to one
    or more
    special status species or sensitive habitats. If that is the
    case, and
    the CNLM is going to be the manager of this land under some
    sort of
    grant arrangement, it is a foregone conclusion that bike
    riding, and
    probably most other activities that are potentially harmful to
    the
    specific species being protected, will be restricted. In other
    words,
    this land is for the use of endangered critters, not for
    people.

    And yes, in the process of environmental restoration, sometimes
    you use
    a bulldozer to get to an improved end product. Won't be the
    first
    time, nor the last.

    Bruce Jensen
    ==============


    Reminds me of an area just off the runway where I worked. For 30
    years the airport burned the area off every spring, and mowed it
    3 or 4 times each summer. Then, during some construction
    somebody found a 'rare' plant. Now, the plant itself wasn't
    endangered, but apparently the butterfly that fed off it was.
    So, the state came in, told the airpost they could not mow, and
    for sure could not burn the area. It looks to me like the plant
    liked the fumes off the runway, the burning and the mowing.
    Afterall, it was thriving there for the last 30 years. Now
    they're gone. The area looked like [censored] for years. I think the
    only thing that turned the thinking around was that the high
    weeds could be a security threat.
    Sometimes the 'process' of environmental restoration doesn't
    protect what they think it will.

  8. JD said:


    Environ said:

    Thanks for the link - I will pass this on to other mountain bikers to
    help the cause for biking...

    What do you mean "other mountain bikers"? The dorks who built those
    "trails" are a bunch of morons who were a)trespassing b)damaging
    private property and c)propagating a negative image for those who
    choose to mountain bike. If the property owner asked me to help tear
    that [censored] down, I'd volunteer.

    JD

    Why is it that so few mountain bikers are willing to tell the truth???
    ===
    I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
    humans ("pure habitat"😉. Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
    years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

    Please don't put a cell phone next to any part of your body that you are fond of!

    http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

  9. S Curtiss said:

    However, the article does state the trails were used by hikers and runners.
    Illegal or not, singling out the "mountain bikers" as the only culprit in
    this scenerio seems unfair. I can grasp that the article focuses on the
    cyclists and their efforts to get the area re-open, however, the reference
    to other activities in the area leaves it open to a cooperative effort for
    all concerned.

    No, it's not unfair to single out these bike doofs because it was the
    bike doofs who built that ridiculous [censored], not hikers or runners.
    Again, it ran in and out of private property and what was ripped out
    first and started the crocodile tears was on private property. After
    that was exposed and the tears began is when the other land managers
    were forced to deal with the liability of this problem. They could no
    longer turn their heads and ignore it because the jackasses were
    raising a stink and public awareness with that stink.

    Quoted message said:

    It is likely that one of two options will emerge. Either it will remain
    closed until it is surrounded and squeezed by development, or it will become
    homogenized with the remaining trails turned to little more than a greenway.
    The total to be gained is knowledge of working within the system to gain
    legal and designated access and status.

    My bet is on a paved greenway, weaving between the squeeze.

    Quoted message said:

    Fortunately, every MV post offers some positive knowledge in this regard as
    in using what is negative to gain knowledge for advancing the positive.
    Stories like this only increase awareness for those that are riding
    correctly.

    It's kind of like finding a speck of gold dust in a giant turd. It
    doesn't happen very often and when it does, you just happened to see a
    glint before flushing.

    JD

  10. On Wed, 29 Nov 2006 09:03:32 -0700, "TJ" <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:

    Now you are advocating more pavement?

    Learn to read. I just advocate restricting bikes to pavement, not
    CREATING pavement. Can you tell the difference?

    You do have a wet noodle for a brain.

    Quoted message said:


    Tell the truth Mike. You are not a voice of the hiking community. You
    surely do not speak for me or anyone else that can walk.

    TJ


    ===
    I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
    humans ("pure habitat"😉. Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
    years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

    Please don't put a cell phone next to any part of your body that you are fond of!

    http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

  11. "Mike Vandeman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    On Wed, 29 Nov 2006 00:35:38 -0500, "S Curtiss" <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:


    However, the article does state the trails were used by hikers and
    runners.
    Illegal or not, singling out the "mountain bikers" as the only culprit in
    this scenerio seems unfair. I can grasp that the article focuses on the
    cyclists and their efforts to get the area re-open,

    You can't "re-open" what was never open.


    They were open to the degree of being public land with a "history of use" It
    was the change over of ownership of surrounding area (for development) that
    created a focus on management.

    Quoted message said:


    however, the reference

    Quoted message said:

    to other activities in the area leaves it open to a cooperative effort for
    all concerned.
    It is likely that one of two options will emerge. Either it will remain
    closed until it is surrounded and squeezed by development, or it will
    become
    homogenized with the remaining trails turned to little more than a
    greenway.
    The total to be gained is knowledge of working within the system to gain
    legal and designated access and status.
    Fortunately, every MV post offers some positive knowledge in this regard
    as
    in using what is negative to gain knowledge for advancing the positive.
    Stories like this only increase awareness for those that are riding
    correctly.

    No mountain biker rides "correctly". They belong on paved roads.
    Period.


    Your OPINION. Which is NOT the law and is NOT a filter to determine any
    legal status of the activity.

    Quoted message said:

    ===

  12. "Mike Vandeman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    On Wed, 29 Nov 2006 09:03:32 -0700, "TJ" <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:

    Now you are advocating more pavement?

    Learn to read. I just advocate restricting bikes to pavement, not
    CREATING pavement. Can you tell the difference?

    Certainly seems that you are all too happy to have the area squeezed by
    building rather than allow some cyclists to ride. If you were at all
    interested in protecting green space, you would be against the development.
    But no, you are so caught up in your opinions that you can't see the trees
    for the concrete.

    Quoted message said:


    You do have a wet noodle for a brain.

    Quoted message said:


    Tell the truth Mike. You are not a voice of the hiking community. You
    surely do not speak for me or anyone else that can walk.

    TJ


    ===

  13. "JD" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    S Curtiss said:

    However, the article does state the trails were used by hikers and
    runners.
    Illegal or not, singling out the "mountain bikers" as the only culprit in
    this scenerio seems unfair. I can grasp that the article focuses on the
    cyclists and their efforts to get the area re-open, however, the
    reference
    to other activities in the area leaves it open to a cooperative effort
    for
    all concerned.

    No, it's not unfair to single out these bike doofs because it was the
    bike doofs who built that ridiculous [censored], not hikers or runners.
    Again, it ran in and out of private property and what was ripped out
    first and started the crocodile tears was on private property. After
    that was exposed and the tears began is when the other land managers
    were forced to deal with the liability of this problem. They could no
    longer turn their heads and ignore it because the jackasses were
    raising a stink and public awareness with that stink.

    It is also unreasonable to assume all of these cyclists are "bike doofs". It
    is probable more were just riding on what was there. What a few renegades
    may have constructed for added thrill should not be associated with everyone
    who rides a bike.

    Quoted message said:


    Quoted message said:

    It is likely that one of two options will emerge. Either it will remain
    closed until it is surrounded and squeezed by development, or it will
    become
    homogenized with the remaining trails turned to little more than a
    greenway.
    The total to be gained is knowledge of working within the system to gain
    legal and designated access and status.

    My bet is on a paved greenway, weaving between the squeeze.

    Fantastic. Another stroke in the column for mediocrity, bureaucracy and
    progress for "our own good" by suits who wouldn't know an oak from a
    dandelion.

    Quoted message said:


    Quoted message said:

    Fortunately, every MV post offers some positive knowledge in this regard
    as
    in using what is negative to gain knowledge for advancing the positive.
    Stories like this only increase awareness for those that are riding
    correctly.

    It's kind of like finding a speck of gold dust in a giant turd. It
    doesn't happen very often and when it does, you just happened to see a
    glint before flushing.


    Well... That actually made me laugh. Especially the comparison of MV's
    writings to a giant turd...

    Quoted message said:

    JD

  14. On Sat, 2 Dec 2006 02:23:25 -0500, "S Curtiss" <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:


    "JD" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    S Curtiss said:

    However, the article does state the trails were used by hikers and
    runners.
    Illegal or not, singling out the "mountain bikers" as the only culprit in
    this scenerio seems unfair. I can grasp that the article focuses on the
    cyclists and their efforts to get the area re-open, however, the
    reference
    to other activities in the area leaves it open to a cooperative effort
    for
    all concerned.

    No, it's not unfair to single out these bike doofs because it was the
    bike doofs who built that ridiculous [censored], not hikers or runners.
    Again, it ran in and out of private property and what was ripped out
    first and started the crocodile tears was on private property. After
    that was exposed and the tears began is when the other land managers
    were forced to deal with the liability of this problem. They could no
    longer turn their heads and ignore it because the jackasses were
    raising a stink and public awareness with that stink.

    It is also unreasonable to assume all of these cyclists are "bike doofs". It
    is probable more were just riding on what was there.

    You KNOW that's a LIE. They BUILT those trails themselves --
    ILLEGALLY.

    What a few renegades

    Quoted message said:

    may have constructed for added thrill should not be associated with everyone
    who rides a bike.

    Quoted message said:


    Quoted message said:

    It is likely that one of two options will emerge. Either it will remain
    closed until it is surrounded and squeezed by development, or it will
    become
    homogenized with the remaining trails turned to little more than a
    greenway.
    The total to be gained is knowledge of working within the system to gain
    legal and designated access and status.

    My bet is on a paved greenway, weaving between the squeeze.

    Fantastic. Another stroke in the column for mediocrity, bureaucracy and
    progress for "our own good" by suits who wouldn't know an oak from a
    dandelion.

    Quoted message said:


    Quoted message said:

    Fortunately, every MV post offers some positive knowledge in this regard
    as
    in using what is negative to gain knowledge for advancing the positive.
    Stories like this only increase awareness for those that are riding
    correctly.

    It's kind of like finding a speck of gold dust in a giant turd. It
    doesn't happen very often and when it does, you just happened to see a
    glint before flushing.


    Well... That actually made me laugh. Especially the comparison of MV's
    writings to a giant turd...

    Quoted message said:

    JD



    ===
    I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
    humans ("pure habitat"😉. Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
    years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

    Please don't put a cell phone next to any part of your body that you are fond of!

    http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

  15. "Mike Vandeman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    On Sat, 2 Dec 2006 02:23:25 -0500, "S Curtiss" <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:


    "JD" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    S Curtiss wrote:
    > However, the article does state the trails were used by hikers and
    > runners.
    > Illegal or not, singling out the "mountain bikers" as the only culprit
    > in
    > this scenerio seems unfair. I can grasp that the article focuses on the
    > cyclists and their efforts to get the area re-open, however, the
    > reference
    > to other activities in the area leaves it open to a cooperative effort
    > for
    > all concerned.

    No, it's not unfair to single out these bike doofs because it was the
    bike doofs who built that ridiculous [censored], not hikers or runners.
    Again, it ran in and out of private property and what was ripped out
    first and started the crocodile tears was on private property. After
    that was exposed and the tears began is when the other land managers
    were forced to deal with the liability of this problem. They could no
    longer turn their heads and ignore it because the jackasses were
    raising a stink and public awareness with that stink.

    It is also unreasonable to assume all of these cyclists are "bike doofs".
    It
    is probable more were just riding on what was there.

    You KNOW that's a LIE. They BUILT those trails themselves --
    ILLEGALLY.


    NO - You can NOT say that ALL the people riding in that area were involved
    in building anything. You can not assign your OPINION to everyone.
    And yet again, your weak minded pathetic excuse for making a point is lost
    as you IGNORE the complete context as stated below!

    Quoted message said:


    What a few renegades

    Quoted message said:

    may have constructed for added thrill should not be associated with
    everyone
    who rides a bike.

    Quoted message said:


    You can't make a statement in full context because you KNOW it would show
    your lack of balance in stating OPINION over FACT. Just as your "research"
    lacks balance of opinion over fact.

  16. "JD" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    S Curtiss said:

    "JD" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    S Curtiss wrote:
    > However, the article does state the trails were used by hikers and
    > runners.
    > Illegal or not, singling out the "mountain bikers" as the only culprit
    > in
    > this scenerio seems unfair. I can grasp that the article focuses on
    > the
    > cyclists and their efforts to get the area re-open, however, the
    > reference
    > to other activities in the area leaves it open to a cooperative effort
    > for
    > all concerned.

    No, it's not unfair to single out these bike doofs because it was the
    bike doofs who built that ridiculous [censored], not hikers or runners.
    Again, it ran in and out of private property and what was ripped out
    first and started the crocodile tears was on private property. After
    that was exposed and the tears began is when the other land managers
    were forced to deal with the liability of this problem. They could no
    longer turn their heads and ignore it because the jackasses were
    raising a stink and public awareness with that stink.

    It is also unreasonable to assume all of these cyclists are "bike doofs".
    It
    is probable more were just riding on what was there. What a few renegades
    may have constructed for added thrill should not be associated with
    everyone
    who rides a bike.

    No, it'[s not unreasonable to know they are doofs because if they rode
    those trails, they were trespassing, plain and simple. Ignorance is no
    excuse and if any of those landowners lobbied enough to have a cop in
    the bushes writing citations, not a one of those doofs would have been
    exempt. As far as the [censored] who built that [censored], where the hell are
    they when it comes time for legitimate trail work? Check out a few mtb
    message boards for the SoCal area and see how huge the responses aren't
    when it comes to legitimate trail work days. It's friggin' sad.


    I'm not an MTB-r.... anymore. That was my teen years when we pioneered the
    whole deal on Schwinn Stingrays. However, we also had parents that would
    kick our asses if we were busted trespassing or damaging other's property.
    We had permission to ride where we did and if we got hurt, we cried and went
    home.

    Today - nobody is responsible except the lawyers ready to grab a fee for a
    negligence suit and parents don't want to disclipline their kids because
    then they would have to actually watch them instead of climbing their social
    ladder.

    Its a small wonder there is any civilization at all. On the trail or in the
    street. When more people know who Bam is than their own Senator, its time to
    back it down a notch.
    That being said....
    In this instance, however, there seems to be a very fuzzy line between what
    has been going on for a long time (accepted or otherwise seen with a "blind
    eye" by authorities) to suddenly being gated with enforcement. Yeah - a
    little attention to civics and due process on the part of the cyclists would
    have probably been beneficial to everyone. Now they find themselves behind
    the gate. Maybe they will learn something.

    But I do not think every cyclist is "guilty" simply because they pedaled
    through an area that was vaguely marked (if marked at all) that had a long
    history of being known as a place to ride.

    Quoted message said:


    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > It is likely that one of two options will emerge. Either it will
    > remain
    > closed until it is surrounded and squeezed by development, or it will
    > become
    > homogenized with the remaining trails turned to little more than a
    > greenway.
    > The total to be gained is knowledge of working within the system to
    > gain
    > legal and designated access and status.

    My bet is on a paved greenway, weaving between the squeeze.

    Fantastic. Another stroke in the column for mediocrity, bureaucracy and
    progress for "our own good" by suits who wouldn't know an oak from a
    dandelion.

    You wouldn't take that bet, would you? I grew up in SoCal and have
    watched it happen over and over again.


    No - I wouldn't. It happens here "back east" too. We also don't seem to have
    the same type of problems. We have areas that are "no bikes" and
    whatdoyaknow... No cyclists go there. I can't think of anyone who would even
    think of taking a bicycle on the Appalachian Trail or other "no bike" zones.
    We have loads of trails and, for the most part, we get along.
    I wonder why that is....?
    We also sent most of our hippies out west. But thats probably a non-issue...
    🙂

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