Wheelbuilders

if the wheels are more than 1.5 - 2 years old, I'd recommend replacing the spokes due to metal fatigue. As someone that's built a lot of wheels on both old and new spokes, saving the few dollars on reusing the old spokes is false economy. Makes it harder on the builder and gives less consistent results. Go for the new spokes, and if that means a wider range of rim choices, so be it.

The Campy wheels with the G3 in the rear only make sense. The front needs to have even spoke placement/tension.

cdr

carpediemracing said:

if the wheels are more than 1.5 - 2 years old, I'd recommend replacing the spokes due to metal fatigue. As someone that's built a lot of wheels on both old and new spokes, saving the few dollars on reusing the old spokes is false economy. Makes it harder on the builder and gives less consistent results. Go for the new spokes, and if that means a wider range of rim choices, so be it.

agreed.

whatever you get for rims/hubs, build them on new spokes.

The wheels are under warranty and I am assuming that Dirtworks/wheelcraft will replace the whole wheel. They are built up in Holland or another European country which I confuse with Holland, then they are tensioned and rechecked here.

I would see what you get through the warranty first, before deciding on anything else like pulling the wheelset apart (which would then void the build warranty I presume). Free is always good.

Agreed (again) on the new spokes, however one thing to note is that DT Aerolite spokes are very expensive. I built my new wheelset with DT Revolutions; these are an almost-similar weight to the Aerolites and much cheaper.. I am thoroughly unconvinced with regard to the benefit of bladed spokes anyhow. My old wheelset had Aerolite front and Aero Speed rear spokes, all I noticed was that I always got blown around in the wind.

BTW I think the Holland thing is just the brand of the machine Dirtworks use to machine-lace them: Holland Mechanics. There wouldn't be much point in having the grunt work (lacing) done overseas, and the skilled work (tensioning/truing, balancing, stabilising) done here.

Bobby, go and see Phil at Runners World, West Perth, he builds all the Tri wheels in Perth. 😉

carpediemracing said:

The Campy wheels with the G3 in the rear only make sense. The front needs to have even spoke placement/tension.

Can you elaborate on why G3 makes sense for the rear?

sogood said:

Can you elaborate on why G3 makes sense for the rear?

The Neutrons don't have G3 anywhere.

gclark8 said:

Bobby, go and see Phil at Runners World, West Perth, he builds all the Tri wheels in Perth. 😉

Thanks. When I get the wheels back (who knows when, I have heard it could be a fair few weeks) I'll see if it is the heavier rims. I know exactly where runners world is (near the big Harvey norman and railway). If it comes to that I'll chase him up.

sogood said:

Can you elaborate on why G3 makes sense for the rear?

Because of dishing drive side spokes have roughly twice the tension as the non-drive side ones. The G3 pattern has two drive side spokes for each non-drive side one, so the tension in all the rear spokes is similar.

Bobby could you stand to have Italian wheels on your swiss bike?!?!?!

Why go Neutrons for race wheels? Unless you spend a lot of time in the hills or very rough roads go for Eurus s. Almost the same weight, and less spokes (plus G3 rear). The Neutrons will be a little more forgiving vertically for rough roads, and stiffer latterally for decending, other wise Eurus has better aero and just as light. I could sell you some ceramic bearings for either campys of course 😉

Plus I know you have a smaller wallet than most on this site, how about giving neuvations a try? They really do seem to have the basics well sorted and cost less than half of what your considering. Could sell the DTs and still have change left over from a set of neuvations.

Actually they are built by a machine called "Holland mechanics"

This is not a joke.

The wheelbuilder does go over them at the end.

bobbyOCR said:

The wheels are under warranty and I am assuming that Dirtworks/wheelcraft will replace the whole wheel. They are built up in Holland or another European country which I confuse with Holland, then they are tensioned and rechecked here.

Bro Deal said:

Because of dishing drive side spokes have roughly twice the tension as the non-drive side ones. The G3 pattern has two drive side spokes for each non-drive side one, so the tension in all the rear spokes is similar.

Ok, so effectively you are suggesting the benefits of 2:1 spoke pattern rather than the uneven radial spread of G3 pattern. Under this 2:1 arrangement, I would think the Fulcrum arrangement with an even spread of spokes make much more sense than the G3 used by Campag.

I had considered Neuvations. I had a look at a set of R28 SL at Fleet cyclery. They look great and come in at a reasonable weight for their $450au price tag.
The roads around here are very rough which is why I went for a set of many spoked wheels. Most cycling is done through dairy-roads or country back roads which have been torn up.
I am in a personal debate over whether to go for Neutrons or Eurus. I am looking for a laterally stiff, comfortable wheel with good hubs. Aerodynamics is important, though I think someone mentioned Neutrons use CX-Ray spokes, so that is about as aero as it gets. The aluminium spokes on the Eurus are a turn off. I'd much prefer stainless steel. The silver one would go nicely though......
I'd rather have Italian than Japanese. I hate Shimano wheels, they need to revise their design. The current 105 wheels are an improvement though. I think Campagnolo looks better. I don't think I quite have the budget for ceramics, but out of interest, how much 😄

More questions. What is the cheapest price seen on Eurus.
Same for neutron. (& Ultra)
Same for Shamal ($750USD is cheapest)
I know Neuvation are cheap as.

EDIT Can't believe I didn't consider this, DT RR1450

bobbyOCR said:

More questions. What is the cheapest price seen on Eurus.

I think you'll be looking at around 750 USD for a set of Camp* Eurus if you're lucky. I think they look ultra funky (the good way) with the different rim profile (26 mm front vs. 30 mm rear). If you want Campag* wheel set, you could also look at Zonda. I took a look at both Zonda and Eurus at LBS last week and I tell you, they didn't look too different. (Also, salesperson told me the same) I can't say for sure, because I haven't ridden any of them. They're significantly cheaper though, and have stainless steel spokes (also bladed) and they're only about 100 g heavier, which shouldn't be any problem with you running 105 group and everything. 😉

Whatever floats your boat mon, it's all in the legs and lungs (and respiratory system). 🙂

EDIT: Did you ditch the whole I'm-getting-a-PowerTap idea by the way?

Remember the funkier the design of the wheels ie Campagnolo the more costly any repairs with 'geniune' parts will be . There are some costly examples or Campy spoke replacement on various forums.

Bobby eurus doesn't use Al spokes, they are reserved for the shamals.
I have the old solid 30mm rimmed zondas, the new designs are lower profile and machined down even on the zondas (and weigh less). Because of the lower profile they may be more forgiving vertically than what I have.

Only thing stopping me from trying a set of neuvations for my next bike (hopefully next year) is that they don't run cup and cone bearings that I can upgrade. I sell 5/32", 3/16", 7/32", and 1/4" balls on ebay for $1.80AUD each on ebay currently, but I'd do anybody who contact me directly a deal (no ebay fees etc). Campy/fulcrum wheels require 60 of the tiny 5/32" which adds up to about $100 ($108+shipping off my ebay adverts). Considering you are looking at about $5US per ball through a retailer I think I'm giving people a good deal.

sogood said:

Can you elaborate on why G3 makes sense for the rear?

the other answers are accurate. the right side of the wheel has more tension and benefits from more spokes.

In addition, the spokes are relatively close together in a G3 pattern. This means the rim is less distorted. Highly tensioned wheels will have rims that move side to side from one spoke to another. Having the spokes closer together will reduce that un-truable rim waver.

On some of my old Zipp wheels, before you could buy them pre-built, I would use 32 hole hubs and 24 hole rims (this on the 340's and 440's - I built perhaps 10-15 pairs of these). I would lace 16 spokes to the right side, 8 to the left. Very strong and durable, partially because of the evened out spoke tension. However, the distance between the spokes (remember, there would be two spokes to the right, then one to the left) meant the wheels would be slightly off all the time - if you spun the wheel on a stand, the rim would go right-right-left right-right-left). The G3 design helps eliminate this waver.

(disclaimer - the only comparable rims to the Zipps available in G3 are the carbon Boras and I haven't had the fortune to be able to check them out on a truing stand).

Fulcrum is a Campy company created specifically so Campy can sell to Shimano users.

As a US person, I'm afraid I can't help out with pricing in Australia 🙂

Hope this clarifies things.
cdr

carpediemracing said:

the other answers are accurate. the right side of the wheel has more tension and benefits from more spokes.

In addition, the spokes are relatively close together in a G3 pattern. This means the rim is less distorted. Highly tensioned wheels will have rims that move side to side from one spoke to another. Having the spokes closer together will reduce that un-truable rim waver.

On some of my old Zipp wheels, before you could buy them pre-built, I would use 32 hole hubs and 24 hole rims (this on the 340's and 440's - I built perhaps 10-15 pairs of these). I would lace 16 spokes to the right side, 8 to the left. Very strong and durable, partially because of the evened out spoke tension. However, the distance between the spokes (remember, there would be two spokes to the right, then one to the left) meant the wheels would be slightly off all the time - if you spun the wheel on a stand, the rim would go right-right-left right-right-left). The G3 design helps eliminate this waver.

Fulcrum is a Campy company created specifically so Campy can sell to Shimano users.

Thanks for the detail. The question that remains in my mind is, given the same 2:1 spoke ratio, is the G3 pattern on the Campag better than the evenly spaced Fulcrum 2:1 for the rear wheel? Does your argument still apply?

Phill P said:

Bobby eurus doesn't use Al spokes, they are reserved for the shamals.

I know this is a minor knit-pick, but BobbyOCR is right on this one - both Eurus and Shamal use alu spokes. Check out this link.