Helmets

Following on from Noel's message. . .

Quoted message said:

Firstly, this is most definitely not meant as a cue for a discussion about
the pros and cons of helmet wearing.

I was innocently wondering about the designs of cycling helmets.

Stop it! Have a cold shower. It clearly says on the tin: "Don't smoke
for at least 15 minutes after drinking the petrol" 🙂

Quoted message said:

This thing seems like a better all round design to protect a head (Lidl's
infamous quality not withstanding):

http://www.lidl.co.uk/uk/home.nsf/pages/c.o.20061123.p.Ski_and_Snowboard_H
elmet.ar1

Are cycle helmet designs focused on air flow to the scalp and
streamlining? Clearly this snowboard helmet would be rather warm but to
me it would be more effective?

OK what's 'effective'. If you mean protecting you against being hurled
head first into a snow drift then the side protection might save
unpleasantness in the ear department.

If you mean 'giving all round view including peripheral vision' then
that would get a minus score.

An 'afro' in polystyrene might be effective in reducing the shock for a
direct to the head blow but could end up twisting your head off.

In the cycle world there is enough pressure to innovate to ensure that
the cycle ones are a good compromise for all the things that have to be
compromised.

Quoted message said:

Apologies in advance if this inadvertently sparks the helmet loons off,

Anyone lend Noel and asbestos helmet? 🙂
--
PETER FOX Not the same since the cardboard box company folded
[email hidden]
www.eminent.demon.co.uk - Lots for cyclists

Noel said:

Firstly, this is most definitely not meant as a cue for a discussion about
the pros and cons of helmet wearing.

I was innocently wondering about the designs of cycling helmets.

This thing seems like a better all round design to protect a head (Lidl's
infamous quality not withstanding):

http://www.lidl.co.uk/uk/home.nsf/pages/c.o.20061123.p.Ski_and_Snowboard_Helmet.ar1

Are cycle helmet designs focused on air flow to the scalp and
streamlining? Clearly this snowboard helmet would be rather warm but to
me it would be more effective?

Apologies in advance if this inadvertently sparks the helmet loons off,

Cheers
Noel

Troll.

"...innocently wondering..."

Innocence is not the prime characteristic of bridge sous-dwellers.

Peter Fox said:

An 'afro' in polystyrene might be effective in reducing the shock for a
direct to the head blow but could end up twisting your head off.

Yes that is what I always visualise when I look at a typical cycle helmet.
A smooth round helmet would give one a cleaner rub along the tarmac
methinks.

Quoted message said:

In the cycle world there is enough pressure to innovate to ensure that
the cycle ones are a good compromise for all the things that have to be
compromised.

Getting into dangerous waters here, but perhaps the normal cycle helmet is
designed with off-roading in mind where tree and boulder headbutting is
more likely than head-twisting road spills?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Apologies in advance if this inadvertently sparks the helmet loons off,

Anyone lend Noel and asbestos helmet? 🙂

Anyone!?!

Cheers
Noel

jtaylor said:

Troll.

"...innocently wondering..."

Innocence is not the prime characteristic of bridge sous-dwellers.

Er - sorry I thought it was abundantly clear I was not bating the 'normal'
dull helmet brigade but just asking about why helmet's are designed as
they are. Trolling, no.

Noel said:

just asking about why helmet's are designed as they are.

So people will think they're functional and buy them.

Chris
--
Chris Eilbeck

Noel wrote on 16/11/2006 18:13 +0100:

Quoted message said:

Getting into dangerous waters here, but perhaps the normal cycle helmet is
designed with off-roading in mind where tree and boulder headbutting is
more likely than head-twisting road spills?

A normal cycle helmet is designed with fashion and cost in mind.
Performance standards have been dropped to ensure that fashion and cost
are not compromised.

--
Tony

"Anyone who conducts an argument by appealing to authority is not using
his intelligence; he is just using his memory."
- Leonardo da Vinci

On Thu, 16 Nov 2006 18:29:50 +0000, Tony Raven <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Noel wrote on 16/11/2006 18:13 +0100:

Quoted message said:

Getting into dangerous waters here, but perhaps the normal cycle helmet is
designed with off-roading in mind where tree and boulder headbutting is
more likely than head-twisting road spills?

A normal cycle helmet is designed with fashion and cost in mind.
Performance standards have been dropped to ensure that fashion and cost
are not compromised.

Close, but not spot-on.

Cycle helmets are designed first and foremost with _profit_ in mind

In article <[email hidden]>

Noel said:

Firstly, this is most definitely not meant as a cue for a discussion about
the pros and cons of helmet wearing.

I was innocently wondering about the designs of cycling helmets.

This thing seems like a better all round design to protect a head (Lidl's
infamous quality not withstanding):

http://www.lidl.co.uk/uk/home.nsf/pages/c.o.20061123.p.Ski_and_Snowboard_Helmet.ar1

Are cycle helmet designs focused on air flow to the scalp and
streamlining? Clearly this snowboard helmet would be rather warm but to
me it would be more effective?

I doubt it, it's probably a similar construction to a basic cycle helmet
but with added ear warmers - how hard is snow anyway?

Cycle helmet design is a trade-off in several ways:

protection vs. comfort - if it's hot or heavy you either won't wear it,
will go slower (you might as well just go slower without a helmet) or it
will adversely affect primary safety by making you uncomfortable or
restricting vision/hearing

impact protection vs. risk of rotation injury - to provide acceptable
deceleration the helmet needs a certain thickness of shock-absorbing
material, whic means it will stick out and is more likely to contact the
road than is a bare head - rotation injury is often more dangerous than
the rapid deceleration of a direct impact.

cost vs. protection - manufacturers want to sell lots of helmets, so
reduce costs by manufacturing/testing helmets to the minimum acceptable
EU standard - the more expensive helmets generally have better
cooling/aerodynamics/weight/cosmetics while not being certified to any
higher standards.

Motorcycle racers and freestylers use helmets that provide a credible
level of protection - downhill mountain bike racers use a similar design
because the events they ride are fairly short, don't involve extended
pedalling (with little or none up hill) and they don't have to worry
about traffic, while the chance of taking a tumble is fairly high. Even
then they're unlikely to hit much apart from the ground or a bike (not
many high kerbs, street lights or cars pulling out in front of you or
running into the back of you on a race track). The helmet is just part
of downhill protective gear that includes hip, knee, shin, elbow,
shoulder, chest and back armour and wrist guards - when you have that
lot on you can learn to slide or roll with minimal injury and keep your
head pretty safe anyway.

Noel said:

Firstly, this is most definitely not meant as a cue for a discussion about
the pros and cons of helmet wearing.

I was innocently wondering about the designs of cycling helmets.

This thing seems like a better all round design to protect a head (Lidl's
infamous quality not withstanding):

http://www.lidl.co.uk/uk/home.nsf/pages/c.o.20061123.p.Ski_and_Snowboard_Helmet.ar1

Are cycle helmet designs focused on air flow to the scalp and
streamlining? Clearly this snowboard helmet would be rather warm but to
me it would be more effective?

A good resource for these sorts of questions is the Snell (helmet standard folk)
web site:

http://www.smf.org/

in message <[email hidden]>, Noel

(') said:

Firstly, this is most definitely not meant as a cue for a discussion
about the pros and cons of helmet wearing.

I was innocently wondering about the designs of cycling helmets.

This thing seems like a better all round design to protect a head (Lidl's
infamous quality not withstanding):

http://www.lidl.co.uk/uk/home.nsf/pages/c.o.20061123.p.Ski_and_Snowboard_Helmet.ar1

Quoted message said:

Are cycle helmet designs focused on air flow to the scalp and
streamlining?

Airflow, certainly. Time trial helmets also try to do something about
streamlining, but how effective this is I don't know.

Quoted message said:

Clearly this snowboard helmet would be rather warm but to
me it would be more effective?

You're at least as much at risk dying of heatstroke because you are wearing
a helmet as dying of preventable head injury because you're not, so I
doubt it.

Quoted message said:

Apologies in advance if this inadvertently sparks the helmet loons off,

Well, you may think I'm a helmet loon. I'm not. I used to wear one
regularly, before I studied the research; so did a lot of other people
here. I know helmets seem on the face of it a good idea, but they're a
good idea which just doesn't work in practice.

These days when I do wear a helmet it's either a Met Parachute, which I
wear when I know I'm doing stupid things and which actually is relatively
well designed to protect the head; or else it's a time trial helmet
because of stupid rules which say I have to wear one when racing.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum sonatur.

Marc Brett wrote on 16/11/2006 18:54 +0100:

Quoted message said:

A good resource for these sorts of questions is the Snell (helmet
standard folk) web site:

http://www.smf.org/

Yes, the website of the sponsors of TRT is a good place to start an
education in junk helmet science. Or you could go to a site that is
independent - http://www.cyclehelmets.org

--
Tony

"Anyone who conducts an argument by appealing to authority is not using
his intelligence; he is just using his memory."
- Leonardo da Vinci

Marc Brett said:

A good resource for these sorts of questions is the Snell (helmet
standard folk) web site:

http://www.smf.org/

In their "Positional Stability (Roll-Off) Test" it might be better if the
helmet *did* 'roll-off'...

Simon Brooke said:

Well, you may think I'm a helmet loon. I'm not. I used to wear one

No Simon - you are the opposite of the helmet loon I was referring to.

Cheers

Noel said:

Are cycle helmet designs focused on air flow to the scalp and
streamlining? Clearly this snowboard helmet would be rather warm but
to me it would be more effective?

Cycle helmet manufacturers do put a lot of effort into ventilation because
that's extremely important for cycling. Your head will boil in that Lidyl
snowboard helmet unless you only cycle down hill. Check the weight as well.

Time trial helmets have less ventiliation but they have less insulation too.
They're designed more for aerodynamics than protection.

~PB

Noel said:

Peter Fox said:

An 'afro' in polystyrene might be effective in reducing the shock for a
direct to the head blow but could end up twisting your head off.

Yes that is what I always visualise when I look at a typical cycle helmet.
A smooth round helmet would give one a cleaner rub along the tarmac
methinks.

Quoted message said:

In the cycle world there is enough pressure to innovate to ensure that
the cycle ones are a good compromise for all the things that have to be
compromised.

Getting into dangerous waters here, but perhaps the normal cycle helmet is
designed with off-roading in mind where tree and boulder headbutting is
more likely than head-twisting road spills?

na see downhill helments, full face jobbies.

i suspect they attaully do something unlike the normal cylcle helments.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Apologies in advance if this inadvertently sparks the helmet loons off,

Anyone lend Noel and asbestos helmet? 🙂

Anyone!?!

Cheers
Noel

roger

Pete Biggs said:

Noel said:

Are cycle helmet designs focused on air flow to the scalp and
streamlining? Clearly this snowboard helmet would be rather warm but
to me it would be more effective?

Cycle helmet manufacturers do put a lot of effort into ventilation because
that's extremely important for cycling.

No - it allows them to sell even less of an extremely cheap substance
(polystyrene foam) for even more money.

Quoted message said:

Pete Biggs said:

Noel said:

Are cycle helmet designs focused on air flow to the scalp and
streamlining? Clearly this snowboard helmet would be rather warm
but to me it would be more effective?

Cycle helmet manufacturers do put a lot of effort into ventilation
because that's extremely important for cycling.

No - it allows them to sell even less of an extremely cheap substance
(polystyrene foam) for even more money.

It would be cheaper for them not to put any holes in it.

They have to go to such lengths, and so far that the helmets can't actually
provide much protection, because they couldn't persuade people to keep
buying them otherwise.

~PB

"Rob Morley" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>
Noel <[email hidden]> wrote:
Cycle helmet design is a trade-off in several ways:

impact protection vs. risk of rotation injury - to provide acceptable
deceleration the helmet needs a certain thickness of shock-absorbing
material, whic means it will stick out and is more likely to contact the
road than is a bare head - rotation injury is often more dangerous than
the rapid deceleration of a direct impact.

I'm not really sure what you are saying here - if a direct impact is
imminent it will either have some transverse element or not. If not, then
the helmet definitely helps; OTOH were there a significant transverse
element ov motion, surely the head would rotate anyway.

The only time I can see it making a difference in a negative sense would be
if the head got within about 1.5cm (but no closer) of the road/kerb/whatever
*with* a significant transverse motion.

My niece came off her bike when her rear wheel lost grip on a curve at the
bottom of a steep hill - she ended up with nasty grazes on her arms and
wrist, a bit of bruising on her leg and a distinct dint in her helmet. In
that case the helmet helped.

Quoted message said:

cost vs. protection - manufacturers want to sell lots of helmets, so
reduce costs by manufacturing/testing helmets to the minimum acceptable
EU standard - the more expensive helmets generally have better
cooling/aerodynamics/weight/cosmetics while not being certified to any
higher standards.

Are there higher certification standards available for cycle helmets? It's
not clear whether the 'generally' refers to the advertised attributes or the
absence of higher certificated standards for retailed helmets.

Quoted message said:

Motorcycle racers and freestylers use helmets that provide a credible
level of protection - downhill mountain bike racers use a similar design
because the events they ride are fairly short, don't involve extended
pedalling (with little or none up hill) and they don't have to worry
about traffic, while the chance of taking a tumble is fairly high. Even
then they're unlikely to hit much apart from the ground or a bike (not
many high kerbs, street lights or cars pulling out in front of you or
running into the back of you on a race track). The helmet is just part
of downhill protective gear that includes hip, knee, shin, elbow,
shoulder, chest and back armour and wrist guards - when you have that
lot on you can learn to slide or roll with minimal injury and keep your
head pretty safe anyway.

You seem to be claiming that you can 'learn' to keep your head safe - surely
that depends on lots of practise when falling off. Road riding is not a
place to learn such skills, and road riding is where most cyclists start.

I'm sympathetic to the anti compulsion arguments, but I don't think that
helmets 'per se' are as bad as you seem to imply.

Owen

OG said:

I'm sympathetic to the anti compulsion arguments, but I don't think that
helmets 'per se' are as bad as you seem to imply.

Owen

sorry you've failed the entrance exam ;-)