I was just speaking to one of my [font=Times New Roman][font=Verdana]colleagues in Oregon last evening and he just got back from Taiwan where he saw the 1st PLASTIC ROAD BIKE. No joke guys, the Taiwanese are working on perfecting PLASTIC FRAMES. He said it looked like a carbon frame but was pure high grade, super stiff plastic. I can't wait to see one of these up close and check it out.[/font][/font]
My question is, do you think plastic is a viable frame material? If so, what major brand do you think will license the technology first? 🙄
The term plastic is so broad that it's almost meaningless to talk about it this way in 2006.
I wouldn't buy a plastic frame. 'plastic' is attacked very easily and decays when subjected to certain things like UV light. oil can destroy it and other naturally occurring elements.
Bobby I am not sure of the Plastic content or its suseptibility to errosion etc.[font=Verdana], but my friend says its a composite hard like carbon. He thought that there may have been some fiberglass mixed in with it. I don't have the break down of the composite or resin. I do know that he said the small frame weighed in at 765 grams. Holy light!!![/font]
Word has it that TREK is the one paying for all the R&D for this project. Could this be the next Lance 10/2 bike of the future? It has me totally curious. I'm sure that more info will follow at the Taiwan Show or Eurobike for 2007. I can hardly wait. 🙄
bobbyOCR said:
I wouldn't buy a plastic frame. 'plastic' is attacked very easily and decays when subjected to certain things like UV light. oil can destroy it and other naturally occurring elements.
It's far from the first if it's plastic, but if it is both strong and light then it must be reinforced plastic like you said. If it is both strong and light while looking like plastic, my guess is they are injection molding a frame with random carbon fibers in it instead of laminating it up from cloth. Kind of like the way they extrude a household ladder from plastic and long glass fibers, i.e. mix the fibers with the plastic and then mold or extrude it.
Garage you may be totally correct in this. I am not sure. But it does make sense for TREK to be working on alternative materials for which to build framesets. Especially with all the talk of Carbon being in short supply. They could be going down the right path with this concept. All I know is that the Asians will figure it out and perfect it. I'm pretty confident they will with the financial backing of someone like TREK. 🙄
garage sale GT said:
It's far from the first if it's plastic, but if it is both strong and light then it must be reinforced plastic like you said. If it is both strong and light while looking like plastic, my guess is they are injection molding a frame with random carbon fibers in it instead of laminating it up from cloth. Kind of like the way they extrude a household ladder from plastic and long glass fibers, i.e. mix the fibers with the plastic and then mold or extrude it.
Well, it's got to be reinforced with some kind of high tech material unless Trek and the Asians discover new forms of plastic, or unless the frame is heavy.
Glass fiber reinforced plastic would be about as heavy for its strength as mild steel.
I have seen molded plastic bikes from the 70's but I think the idea there was to cut down on manufacturing costs and rust. They were utility bikes from Holland or Denmark. The frames were I-beams instead of tubes.
Maybe they are injection molding frames with random filler carbon fibers, i.e. mixing the fibers and the plastic and then putting the mix in a mold.
You need short strands for this work, so they can economically source the waste fibers from the production of the woven roving used in conventional carbon fiber lamination. The end bits and so forth.
I'm really not sure. Whatever the compound makeup is if Trek puts its name on it, I think it will be pretty revolutionary. 🙄
garage sale GT said:
Maybe they are injection molding frames with random filler carbon fibers, i.e. mixing the fibers and the plastic and then putting the mix in a mold.
You need short strands for this work, so they can economically source the waste fibers from the production of the woven roving used in conventional carbon fiber lamination. The end bits and so forth.
I know that carbon is a series of strands layed in a continuous pattern [weave] that creates incredible strength when processed and bonded. I really don't think the Plastic concept being used is too far off. All I know is that the industry is due for a new mind blowing material to emerge. The question is, could this be it?🙄
rdk said:
Wouldn't carbon bikes be technically made of a "plastic"?
I think a little background education is in order. Current carbon fiber composite materials use carbon fibers and an epoxy to glue them together. These are called thermoset composites. They are cured and a they reach what is called a glass-transition phase where they solidify. Once cured they remain in that state and the reaction can't be reversed.
There is another class of epoxies called thermoplastic formulas. They are solid below their melting point. In a composite structure this means that a carbon fiber with thermoplastic infused into it will harden into a solid structure. If damaged, it could be simply reheated to the melting point and remolded into shape or repaired. These thermoplsastic composites are often times, mis-called plastic composites. They are just as strong as any thermoset composite structure with the advantage that they can be recycled more easily. A manufacturer can mold a frame and if there is a minor defect, they could put it back in the mold and reheat it to fix it. This is the main advantage thermoplastic resins have.
There are experts that believe, due to cost advantages, that thermoplastic composites will overtake thermoset composites in a lot of applications. There are many other applications that will require thermoset composites due to extereme tempuratures they enocounter, such as in fighter jet brakes among other things.
Great educational info. I learned something new. Thanks!
Insight Driver said:
I think a little background education is in order. Current carbon fiber composite materials use carbon fibers and an epoxy to glue them together. These are called thermoset composites. They are cured and a they reach what is called a glass-transition phase where they solidify. Once cured they remain in that state and the reaction can't be reversed.
There is another class of epoxies called thermoplastic formulas. They are solid below their melting point. In a composite structure this means that a carbon fiber with thermoplastic infused into it will harden into a solid structure. If damaged, it could be simply reheated to the melting point and remolded into shape or repaired. These thermoplsastic composites are often times, mis-called plastic composites. They are just as strong as any thermoset composite structure with the advantage that they can be recycled more easily. A manufacturer can mold a frame and if there is a minor defect, they could put it back in the mold and reheat it to fix it. This is the main advantage thermoplastic resins have.
There are experts that believe, due to cost advantages, that thermoplastic composites will overtake thermoset composites in a lot of applications. There are many other applications that will require thermoset composites due to extereme tempuratures they enocounter, such as in fighter jet brakes among other things.
There is another class of epoxies called thermoplastic formulas. They are solid below their melting point. In a composite structure this means that a carbon fiber with thermoplastic infused into it will harden into a solid structure.
What thermoplastic are you referring to? I was under the impression that most thermoplastics were too viscous to be used in carbon fiber lamination; and that their mechanical properties were typically inferior to the thermosets. And besides random filler, how do you laminate using thermoplastics?
I wouldn't buy a plastic frame. 'plastic' is attacked very easily and decays when subjected to certain things like UV light. oil can destroy it and other naturally occurring elements.
There are way too many plastics to make this general statement. While your statement is true for polystyrene, and many other plastics, it is not true for all plastics.
There are way too many plastics to make this general statement. While your statement is true for polystyrene, and many other plastics, it is not true for all plastics.
Another way to look at it is that fiberglass and possibly carbon fiber epoxies are UV sensitive, so that means we couldn't have those things if coatings and additives couldn't protect plastics. Not 100% sure about the carbon.
Could be a nano tube type technology like easton have developed.
Problem with injection molding carbon or glass fiber reinforced plastics is there is no control of fiber direction, they just go with the flow. Can also get join points such as flowing around a hole in two directions and rejoining again. Depending on the pricess this is likely to be a weak point.
On the tooling front injection molding carbon or glass is extremely hard on the too and they wear out very quickly. All the little fibers act like sand and grind away at the metal.
Still no reason that it can't be developed and be made to work. If trek does it first it leads some respect as they can't afford to have frames fail and face all the law suits.
However mid range tennis raquetes are made in this mannor still I believe.
