question for rapdaddyo

tk_bike said:

You mentioned using the CP curve to estimate FT/training intensities for different time periods.

Is it possible to use 'PB' performances for each duration from a race in this using normalised power in the model or should specific efforts at a constant duration or intensity be used.

I say this because i have fairly limited data at the moment but did a ~1hour race on saturday, my normalised power over the race (1h02) was 267 W (VI 1.18 - a crit, not a flat circuit) when i plug in my average powers over 5, 10 and 20 minutes i get a 1 hour power of 229 W but if i use normalised power it comes as 270 W, much closer to my race performance. I will be doing some more testing over the next few weeks (I have only used my PT 3 times so far!), probably including a full 1 hour tt on an outdoor track and comparing the various methods to set a benchmark, but from this method would people think my FT is likely to be around 270, or nearer 230?

thanks

Well, it's not RD, but you should be using ave powers for the durations you're looking at in the CP model. The values you use should be representative of your 'best' effort for that duration. That is, 'cherry picking' values from races may not be the best idea.

I'd retest over the 5,10,20 min durations when you're fresh to get a more valid CP plot. The CP model is quite robust, hence provided you've tested properly, i'd go with what it tells you. You'll know pretty quickly if FTP aint 270W😉 .

Thanks, I'll know more when I've used my PT a bit more and got some more data!

tk_bike said:

You mentioned using the CP curve to estimate FT/training intensities for different time periods.

Sorry I only just saw this post. Dini77 steered you right. The CP curve is quite robust, but the test protocol is pretty important. Cherry picking values from either the AP or NP MMP curve can lead to some misleading curve parameters. Personally, I prefer to ride my performance tests as max duration rides at a constant power. I have been using power targets that I estimate I can ride for ~3, ~8 & ~30min durations, but I think I will go to 2, 5 & 20min durations in the future. My reasons for these durations is that I am trying to isolate (as much as possible) my anaerobic capacity (2mins), my VO2MAX (5mins) and my aerobic efficiency (20mins). I use a course that is slightly upgrade and (usually) upwind so that I can ride at a constant power for an extended time. If necessary, I can ride for ~40mins at a constant power on my test course. It's about the next best thing to a track. I'll forewarn you that a max duration test ride takes a little getting used to. We normally set out to ride for a specific duration, but in a max duration ride we set out to maintain a constant power for as long as we can. It's pretty easy to know when to shut down for numbers well above FTP (e.g., 150%FTP). But, as we approach FTP, it gets to be a real mind game to know when we can't maintain the target power any longer. I try to get within a minute of my target and then I try to hold power for 15 seconds at a time and keep telling myself, "You can do another, it's only 15s." This can go on for awhile.😉

RapDaddyo said:

Sorry I only just saw this post. Dini77 steered you right. The CP curve is quite robust, but the test protocol is pretty important. Cherry picking values from either the AP or NP MMP curve can lead to some misleading curve parameters. Personally, I prefer to ride my performance tests as max duration rides at a constant power. I have been using power targets that I estimate I can ride for ~3, ~8 & ~30min durations, but I think I will go to 2, 5 & 20min durations in the future. My reasons for these durations is that I am trying to isolate (as much as possible) my anaerobic capacity (2mins), my VO2MAX (5mins) and my aerobic efficiency (20mins). I use a course that is slightly upgrade and (usually) upwind so that I can ride at a constant power for an extended time. If necessary, I can ride for ~40mins at a constant power on my test course. It's about the next best thing to a track. I'll forewarn you that a max duration test ride takes a little getting used to. We normally set out to ride for a specific duration, but in a max duration ride we set out to maintain a constant power for as long as we can. It's pretty easy to know when to shut down for numbers well above FTP (e.g., 150%FTP). But, as we approach FTP, it gets to be a real mind game to know when we can't maintain the target power any longer. I try to get within a minute of my target and then I try to hold power for 15 seconds at a time and keep telling myself, "You can do another, it's only 15s." This can go on for awhile.😉

RD, have you ever tried doing this on an ergo - I know Richard Wharton advocates doing intervals on an ergo so that there can be no half measures - either you can push the power or you can't.

My coach (Peter) on the other hand prefers the athlete to regulate the power himself, making it a bit more mentally challenging.

I was just wondering - how easy is it to keep to a narrow power band when your legs feel like they want to explode.

Bruce Diesel said:

RD, have you ever tried doing this on an ergo - I know Richard Wharton advocates doing intervals on an ergo so that there can be no half measures - either you can push the power or you can't.

My coach (Peter) on the other hand prefers the athlete to regulate the power himself, making it a bit more mentally challenging.

I was just wondering - how easy is it to keep to a narrow power band when your legs feel like they want to explode.

I haven't ridden test efforts on an ergo yet, but plan to do so in the future because I plan to get a Velodyne trainer which has ergo mode. In fact, I have some great workouts planned for the Velodyne including some specific courses.

I have been doing a lot of my interval training on a computrainer in ergo mode in the past. And one thing for sure, the point of failure isn't a gradual decay, but a pretty sharp drop :eek:

I personally find this a lot easier mentally - where all my thoughts are focused on keeping the cranks turning and not trying to stay within a power zone. I also find it unrelenting - you can't steal a couple of easy turns before you get going again.

The down side is that if you get the levels wrong you either finish the set too easily, or you are really fatigued after the first interval and battle to do more, even at a lower level. You really have to know your levels.

Bruce Diesel said:

I have been doing a lot of my interval training on a computrainer in ergo mode in the past. And one thing for sure, the point of failure isn't a gradual decay, but a pretty sharp drop :eek:

I personally find this a lot easier mentally - where all my thoughts are focused on keeping the cranks turning and not trying to stay within a power zone. I also find it unrelenting - you can't steal a couple of easy turns before you get going again.

The down side is that if you get the levels wrong you either finish the set too easily, or you are really fatigued after the first interval and battle to do more, even at a lower level. You really have to know your levels.

I've found the CT in ergo mode to be very effective for the really hard stuff. Maybe a cheaper option than the Velodyne? Now I use 3d mode thru the longish winters here for SST work as well so that's a factor for me.

rmur

rmur17 said:

I've found the CT in ergo mode to be very effective for the really hard stuff. Maybe a cheaper option than the Velodyne? Now I use 3d mode thru the longish winters here for SST work as well so that's a factor for me.

Can you create your own workouts for the CT? Can you import a ride file to CT or do you have to create the workout in CT (i.e., with CT software)?

RapDaddyo said:

Can you create your own workouts for the CT? Can you import a ride file to CT or do you have to create the workout in CT (i.e., with CT software)?

Absolutely, just a simple text file in which you can specify the start and end load in watts and the duration of each interval, or the gradient, distance and wind (strength and direction).

The tools that the cyclingpeaks guys now offer allow you to do all of this graphically.

I have downloaded my polar altitude profiles to create a course and have managed to do that same with the Ergomo.

In fact, with the cyclingpeaks tools you can take a power file from a previous ride and it will create a new erg file for you based on that power file.

You can also race against your previous performances, e.g. a 5k TT you can load your previous performance and ride against yourself on the screen.

RapDaddyo said:

Can you create your own workouts for the CT? Can you import a ride file to CT or do you have to create the workout in CT (i.e., with CT software)?

CT is very, very flexible. You can create custom ergo workouts using what they call "Coaching Software" program. It uses a simple .txt input file with a few simple commands to set time/power/ramps over time etc.

There are 3rd party software pkgs which with I'm not familiar but claim to effectively construct either ergo or 3D courses from sources such as Garmin GPS. These have been on the market I think a couple of years so the bugs may be out by now.

In 3D you can pretty easily build custom courses. I've built about a dozen that I use for tempo, L4 and L5 work. For example it takes only minutes to build a 3D course say with a 2k climb interspersed with 1k flats (terraced fashion) that I use for L4 work.

Another favorite of mine is a terraced course consisting of long 15k climbs with 5k flats. 100k of that is my target Saturday ride when I can't get outdoors.

It's a pretty mature product now. BTW, it can also function as an adjustable mag-trainer as well as a good ergo and of course the signature 3D.

I bought mine four years ago and use it a LOT from Nov-April - best training purchase I've ever made.

rmur
p.s. I should state that I have no commercial interest in the product!

rmur17 said:

There are 3rd party software pkgs which with I'm not familiar but claim to effectively construct either ergo or 3D courses from sources such as Garmin GPS. These have been on the market I think a couple of years so the bugs may be out by now.

Let me vouch for one -- I recently picked up Real3d from the cyclingpeaks boys and it really works well. Like Rick, I also do a lot of SST and wanted to tinker around trying to get some of my favorite courses on the computrainer. With just a few tweaks to the data file, my courses have turned out very well having a realistic feel as well as power data that is quite close to what I put out at varying efforts in the "real" road. I've seen some folks having problems with GPS stuff, but it has orked quite well for me.

BTW, I also have no financial interest in any of this stuff.

rmur17 said:

It's a pretty mature product now. BTW, it can also function as an adjustable mag-trainer as well as a good ergo and of course the signature 3D.

I bought mine four years ago and use it a LOT from Nov-April - best training purchase I've ever made.[

It sure is a mature product -- mine started out as a Nintendo based unit when I got it in '96 and I upgraded to 3D about 2 years ago. Touch wood, it's been incredibly reliable.

And thanks to Rick with his pot. adjustment protocol, it matches my power meter perfectly . . .

Only gripe I have with the CT software is that it is incredibly processor hungry. Even the Coaching Software maxes out an Intel Xeon processor which is annoying because it would be nice to be able to use the PC to watch a DVD or such like while training.

My PowerTap and Computrainer are within 3 - 4 watts of each other.

Bruce Diesel said:

RD, have you ever tried doing this on an ergo - I know Richard Wharton advocates doing intervals on an ergo so that there can be no half measures - either you can push the power or you can't.

My coach (Peter) on the other hand prefers the athlete to regulate the power himself, making it a bit more mentally challenging.

I was just wondering - how easy is it to keep to a narrow power band when your legs feel like they want to explode.

I feel that the Ergo mode certainly has it's place, but for performance testing of CP it is all about the max for the duration and so ergo may not be the best way to guage that.

In terms of routine L5/L6 intervals, I find that due to the fact that power varies at different times, that if you ride a set in ergo mode then the risk is that you may feel an interval to be harder or easier and as such may either blow the entire session or not get the most that you can out of it. If you ride the session in regular mode then you may find that you naturally ride a higher power and can sustain it, or that you back off a little in order to complete the set. I have also found that some guys get so stuck at a certain power for a certain duration that they miss the natural (but gradual) improvement that occurs as progress is made.

From a practical perspective I also find that simply turning the pedals over to maintain a power as opposed to having to create that power and then maintain it is less like real world racing.

peterwright said:

I feel that the Ergo mode certainly has it's place, but for performance testing of CP it is all about the max for the duration and so ergo may not be the best way to guage that.

In terms of routine L5/L6 intervals, I find that due to the fact that power varies at different times, that if you ride a set in ergo mode then the risk is that you may feel an interval to be harder or easier and as such may either blow the entire session or not get the most that you can out of it. If you ride the session in regular mode then you may find that you naturally ride a higher power and can sustain it, or that you back off a little in order to complete the set. I have also found that some guys get so stuck at a certain power for a certain duration that they miss the natural (but gradual) improvement that occurs as progress is made.

From a practical perspective I also find that simply turning the pedals over to maintain a power as opposed to having to create that power and then maintain it is less like real world racing.

(1) Re CP-Monod testing, I think ergo mode is perfect once you have a good idea of your achievable power. I use 5 and 20-min power levels but only stop on failure. I dial in my last 5-min PB or maybe +5W and start the ergo effort w/o regard to elapsed time. In fact, I never ever look at elapsed time until I'm about to fail. So if I reach 5:10 or even 6:00, when I plug the kJ expenditure into the CP-Monod spreadsheet, I use the actual elapsed time. Same idea for the 20-min effort obviously. It works fine

(2) Re your point about over-setting the power and blowing a session - yes I agree that IS a risk with ergo training. It's very important to select a power level at which you can achieve a decent interval on a modestly bad day - which we all get from time to time. My approach when hitting hard L4 work (opposed to SST) is to use a power level which I can hold for 30min on a good day. I then either do my usual 30/15 intervals when I can or drop that to say 20/15 on a bad day. I have a little wiggle room. Of course, on a breakout day, I'll be shooting for 40+ min (those always feel so good).

(3) Re progression using ergo mode - once I 'break out' to around 150% of starting duration (say from 30 to 45min for my L4 work) then I'll bump the power 5-10W and start building again. It'll hurt once your 1st bad day and you reach only 20min on the 1st effort but over the long haul the power will increase.

(4) My best 5-60MP powers have come after several weeks of focused ergo work. I would NOT want to train like that all year 'round though!

rmur

JIM WV said:

Let me vouch for one -- I recently picked up Real3d from the cyclingpeaks boys and it really works well. Like Rick, I also do a lot of SST and wanted to tinker around trying to get some of my favorite courses on the computrainer. With just a few tweaks to the data file, my courses have turned out very well having a realistic feel as well as power data that is quite close to what I put out at varying efforts in the "real" road. I've seen some folks having problems with GPS stuff, but it has orked quite well for me.

BTW, I also have no financial interest in any of this stuff.

It sure is a mature product -- mine started out as a Nintendo based unit when I got it in '96 and I upgraded to 3D about 2 years ago. Touch wood, it's been incredibly reliable.

And thanks to Rick with his pot. adjustment protocol, it matches my power meter perfectly . . .

you're welcome Jim. I wondered if anyone had used that procedure!

rmur

rmur17 said:

(1) Re CP-Monod testing, I think ergo mode is perfect once you have a goo idea of your achievable power. I use 5 and 20-min power levels but only stop when on failure. I dial in my last 5-min PB or maybe +5W and start the ergo effort w/o regard to elapsed time. In fact, I never ever look at elapsed time until I'm about to fail. So if I reach 5:10 or even 6:00, when I plug the kJ expenditure into the CP-Monod spreadsheet, I use the actual elapsed time. Same idea for the 20-min effort obviously. It works fine

(2) Re your point about over-setting the power and blowing a session - yes I agree that IS a risk with ergo training. It's very important to select a power level at which you can achieve a decent interval on a modestly bad day - which we all get from time to time. My approach when hitting hard L4 work (opposed to SST) is to use a power level which I can hold for 30min on a good day. I then either do my usual 30/15 intervals when I can or drop that to say 20/15 on a bad day. I have a little wiggle room. Of course, on a breakout day, I'll be shooting for 40+ min (those always feel so good).

(3) Re progression using ergo mode - once I 'break out' to around 150% of starting duration (say from 30 to 45min for my L4 work) then I'll bump the power 5-10W and start building again. It'll hurt once your 1st bad day and you reach only 20min on the 1st effort but over the long haul the power will increase.

(4) My best 5-60MP powers have come after several weeks of focused ergo work. I would NOT want to train like that all year 'round though!

rmur

Regarding the CP testing - if you set a power you estimate you can achieve, and then only know you could have done more when you exceed the time you are testing for (eg 5 mins) then you are going to have to rest and start again to get a meaningful figure.

Surely riding as hard as you can for the test duration is the best way to find out what you can actually achieve (rather than what you estimate you can achieve) on any given day ?

peterwright said:

Regarding the CP testing - if you set a power you estimate you can achieve, and then only know you could have done more when you exceed the time you are testing for (eg 5 mins) then you are going to have to rest and start again to get a meaningful figure.

Surely riding as hard as you can for the test duration is the best way to find out what you can actually achieve (rather than what you estimate you can achieve) on any given day ?

uhm I think I didn't explain very well.

If you're doing regular say monthly testing then chances are any change is going to be fairly small. For example if I know my last max. duration test on the ergo at 450W was close to 5-min, then I'll choose that power or slightly higher to do the test.

I set the ergo to 450 or 460W and just go as long as I can. The effort is always maximal (on that day). I may reach 4:45, 5:10 or 6:00. It doens't matter exactly as long as I plug the achieved duration into the CP-Monod spreadsheet. Same concept goes for ~20MP test where I may reach 18-22 minutes at my chosen power. As long as I plug in the achieved duration - it's kosher.

So when I say I do 5/20 MP tests, I mean approximately those durations. I never repeat a test to try and hit an exact duration - that would be a waste of time, effort and recovery.

Of course, nothing wrong with hitting your favorite hill or long grade either 🙂

rmur

rmur17 said:

uhm I think I didn't explain very well.

If you're doing regular say monthly testing then chances are any change is going to be fairly small. For example if I know my last max. duration test on the ergo at 450W was close to 5-min, then I'll choose that power or slightly higher to do the test.

I set the ergo to 450 or 460W and just go as long as I can. The effort is always maximal (on that day). I may reach 4:45, 5:10 or 6:00. It doens't matter exactly as long as I plug the achieved duration into the CP-Monod spreadsheet. Same concept goes for ~20MP test where I may reach 18-22 minutes at my chosen power. As long as I plug in the achieved duration - it's kosher.

So when I say I do 5/20 MP tests, I mean approximately those durations. I never repeat a test to try and hit an exact duration - that would be a waste of time, effort and recovery.

Of course, nothing wrong with hitting your favorite hill or long grade either 🙂

rmur

Thanks - I understand.

I have found when using this method, that once the "expected" duration is reached then often the will to keep going diminishes, and whilst an extra 10-30 secs or thereabouts may be achieved it may not be the best power for that duration, but instead the best power for the anticipated duration +/- a little.

I am sure the difference is minimal however 😉

rmur17 said:

I set the ergo to 450 or 460W and just go as long as I can. The effort is always maximal (on that day). I may reach 4:45, 5:10 or 6:00. It doens't matter exactly as long as I plug the achieved duration into the CP-Monod spreadsheet. Same concept goes for ~20MP test where I may reach 18-22 minutes at my chosen power. As long as I plug in the achieved duration - it's kosher.

That's exactly how I do my CP performance tests, as max duration at a constant power. The only difference is that until now I haven't been able to do them in ergo mode, but rather by manually maintaining a constant power. I'm looking forward to doing these in ergo mode when I get my Velodyne. I actually don't know how to do MP efforts any other way. If I ride a fixed duration at a max power, I'm guessing at the max power. How do I know I couldn't have ridden the duration at 1-2W more?