*Still* truing my first wheel....

Call me Bob said:

Took bike out for another hour today and sure enough rear wheel all unwound.

Did the spokes loosen a lot? I'm not sure what happened there.

Quoted message said:

I'm embarrassed, but admitting it will be good for me:

Don't worry about it. It's skilled job which takes ages to master. I still haven't totally -
but I get by.

Quoted message said:

"Hello, my name is Bob and I'm a cack-handed halfwit"

Hold on. If the rim itself was bent in an incident, you may never get it to /stay/ true by normal
spoke-truing. Bending rim back can help in theory but so difficult to do in practice (to any fine
degree) that I don't bother trying any more.

Quoted message said:

Anyway, I've had another crack at the job. Having decided that this must be down to insufficient
tension and ineffective stress relieving I've been much bolder than previously.

Stress relieving only affects long-term fatigue resitance, so it's irrelevant here. (See the Jobst
Brand quote I posted today in another message). Too slack or uneven tension can lead to problems
though, so pull and pluck the spokes to check spokes have roughly the same tension (compared to
spokes on same side).

Quoted message said:

As I worked I gradually increased tension around the wheel until most spokes on the drive side
were about as tight as I could turn them without damaging the nipples.

That's about right.

Quoted message said:

However, and this really surprised me, once I'd finished stress relieving the wheel (I really gave
it some this time) the spokes were all much looser, I was quite easily able to give the whole
wheel another quarter turn. It didn't half make a racket too when relieving, *ping* *twang*
*creeeaak* Does all noise indicate I'm getting too much wind-up in the spokes when trueing or is
it to be expected? I'm trying to be very careful to avoid this.

It does indicate wind-up, but it's not a big problem, imo. Either try and eliminate by turning
spoke key more than required then back a bit, or just accept they'll be a certain amount - then
retrue and so on.

Anyway, it's definitely worth trying truing again two or three more times if necessary. I'm still
riding on a rear wheel which was badly put out of shape twice (pothole & last crash). It's not
perfect but not too bad either.

~PB

"Call me Bob" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

So, third time under the surgeons knife in three days for my poor rear wheel. Of course it's very
obvious I'm not qualified to surgeon standard yet. Probably wouldn't be allowed to take charge of
the fish fingers in the hospital canteen in fact.

Took bike out for another hour today and sure enough rear wheel all unwound. I'm embarrassed, but
admitting it will be good for me:

"Hello, my name is Bob and I'm a cack-handed halfwit"

Anyway, I've had another crack at the job. Having decided that this must be down to insufficient
tension and ineffective stress relieving I've been much bolder than previously.

As I worked I gradually increased tension around the wheel until most spokes on the drive side
were about as tight as I could turn them without damaging the nipples. However, and this really
surprised me, once I'd finished stress relieving the wheel (I really gave it some this time) the
spokes were all much looser, I was quite easily able to give the whole wheel another quarter turn.
It didn't half make a racket too when relieving, *ping* *twang* *creeeaak* Does all noise indicate
I'm getting too much wind-up in the spokes when trueing or is it to be expected? I'm trying to be
very careful to avoid this.

Anyway, I fine tuned the truing again, stress relived once more and hey presto, all done.

Until I ride the damn thing again. No, I *will* be optimistic. I will, I will, I WILL!

Incidently, thanks for the tips and hints from all who've offered advice, it's much appreciated.

I'm constantly truing my back wheel, due to incompetence no doubt. I can get radial, lateral and
dishing perfect but I can't get even tension on the spokes.

Mind you I have used different spoke types as they have broken.

But even with my level of incompetence 10 minutes or so once a month with a 3 or 4 spokes snapping a
year isn't to bad.

Who needs to be perfect ;o) I would buy Jobst's book but I don't know what "at yield" or "memory"
mean so I guess a lot of it would be over my head.

"Call me Bob" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

So, third time under the surgeons knife in three days for my poor rear

<wheel true snip>

Give it the best shot you can do, but then take it to a mechanic and ask how they do it.

Always trues opposites, i.e. each side and each width etc .... lessen some, tighten others ...

</snip>

p.s. always have decent wheels, otherwise take the machine off the road ...

Call me Bob <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

It didn't half make a racket too when relieving, *ping* *twang* *creeeaak* Does all noise indicate
I'm getting too much wind-up in the spokes when trueing or is it to be expected? I'm trying to be
very careful to avoid this.

As far as I know, those noises are due to wound-up spokes unwinding, not stress relieving. I try to
avoid spoke wind-up by using copious amounts of grease both on the spoke threads and in the nipple,
and by turning the spoke wrench further than needed, then turning back. It's not 100% effective at
preventing spoke windup, but it helps alot.

-Myra

Call me Bob said:

As I worked I gradually increased tension around the wheel until most spokes on the drive side
were about as tight as I could turn them without damaging the nipples. However, and this really
surprised me, once I'd finished stress relieving the wheel (I really gave it some this time) the
spokes were all much looser, I was quite easily able to give the whole wheel another quarter turn.
It didn't half make a racket too when relieving, *ping* *twang* *creeeaak* Does all noise indicate
I'm getting too much wind-up in the spokes when trueing or is it to be expected? I'm trying to be
very careful to avoid this.

There seem to be two issues contributing here. One is not enough tension so the spokes are loosening
in use. This is compounded with spoke wind up (signalled by the *pings* etc that is both causing
unwinding and loss of true in the stress relieving and helping in loss of tension in use.

Suggestions are to up the tension as you have done. Depending on rim, no of spokes etc you will
either reach the point where it becomes almost impossible to turn some of the nipples or the wheel
will go taco shaped when you stress relieve (in which case unwind one turn and retrue).

On the spoke wind up, tell them not to be so gullible ;-) A bit of tape stuck on a spoke to make a
flag near the nipple will tell you if its winding up. When you adjust, over adjust and the back of
slightly until the flag is back in position. After a while you will get the feel and can get rid of
the tape flags and the wheel will be silent when you stress relieve it and go on the first ride.

Tony

Frank said:

But even with my level of incompetence 10 minutes or so once a month with a 3 or 4 spokes snapping
a year isn't to bad.

Who needs to be perfect ;o) I would buy Jobst's book but I don't know what "at yield" or "memory"
mean so I guess a lot of it would be over my head.

Treat yourself, its a really well written book, it does not depend on much mechanical
knowleadge at all.

--
Andy Morris

AndyAtJinkasDotFreeserve.Co.UK

Love this: Put an end to Outlook Express's messy quotes
home.in.tum.deoe quotefixOpen ↗

"Frank" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

But even with my level of incompetence 10 minutes or so once a month with a 3 or 4 spokes snapping
a year isn't to bad.

Gosh, I haven't broken a spoke in years. I also very seldom true the wheels I've built; once build
they stay in good shape. I do however have to tighten up spokes on wheel I haven't built.

Quoted message said:

Who needs to be perfect ;o) I would buy Jobst's book but I don't know what "at yield" or "memory"
mean so I guess a lot of it would be over my head.

I didn't know what any of that stuff meant either, but the book really is quite approachable to a
non-engineer (well, I am an engineer, but a software engineer, which means that I'm more familiar
with a keyboard than a screwdriver).

I built my first wheel using only Sheldon's wheelbuilding instructions and photocopied info from and
Edinbugh Bicycles wheelbuilding class, but reading The Bicycle Wheel I really understood what it was
all about. The main criticism I have of the book is that it's very dry reading; Brandt doesn't
believe in livening up his prose with the occasional joke.

-Myra

There's a good pictorial article in C+ this month on wheel truing. Out today

Pete Biggs said:

Did the spokes loosen a lot? I'm not sure what happened there.

Oh yes, all the way in fact. Several spokes were so loose as to be almost completely unwound from
the nipple. How the hell can that happen in such a short time?

Quoted message said:

Don't worry about it. It's skilled job which takes ages to master. I still haven't totally - but
I get by.

Thanks, I won't let this put me off, I'm determined to find out just what I'm doing wrong. Now I've
started the process, I want to finish it, I *will* build my own wheels.

Quoted message said:

Hold on. If the rim itself was bent in an incident, you may never get it to /stay/ true by normal
spoke-truing. Bending rim back can help in theory but so difficult to do in practice (to any fine
degree) that I don't bother trying any more.

I don't think the rim is damaged. The wheel went out of true because a pannier got jammed into it
(at fairly low speed). It got sucked between the wheel and the seatstay and slightly bent a couple
of spokes and loosened a few more. Rim took no real hit.

Quoted message said:

Stress relieving only affects long-term fatigue resitance, so it's irrelevant here. (See the Jobst
Brand quote I posted today in another message).

Yes, thanks for that, I had thought that stress relieving had a role in settling everything home,
helping to unwind spokes etc but apparently not.

Quoted message said:

Too slack or uneven tension can lead to problems though, so pull and pluck the spokes to check
spokes have roughly the same tension (compared to spokes on same side).

This is something I've been concerned about. Even tension around the wheel is difficult to judge
with my inexperienced hands. It's made more difficult because I've been dealing with a buggered
wheel where the spokes are all at vastly different tensions to begin with. No common starting point
to work from as it were - I've now tried to combat that, see other post.

Quoted message said:

It does indicate wind-up, but it's not a big problem, imo. Either try and eliminate by turning
spoke key more than required then back a bit, or just accept they'll be a certain amount - then
retrue and so on.

I'm using the unwind method religiously, overturn spoke key, turn back slightly. I can actually feel
windup sometimes as I release it, hopefully I'll become more tuned to it as I practice.

Quoted message said:

Anyway, it's definitely worth trying truing again two or three more times if necessary. I'm still
riding on a rear wheel which was badly put out of shape twice (pothole & last crash). It's not
perfect but not too bad either.

Well I intend to keep trying, but, I'm failing so dismally at the moment I'm not sure how to
proceed. Seems rather silly to keep doing the same things just for the wheel to quickly come apart
in the same way. *shrug*

Thanks for the input Pete.

Bob
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Frank said:

I'm constantly truing my back wheel, due to incompetence no doubt. I can get radial, lateral and
dishing perfect but I can't get even tension on the spokes.

Mind you I have used different spoke types as they have broken.

But even with my level of incompetence 10 minutes or so once a month with a 3 or 4 spokes snapping
a year isn't to bad.

Oh boy, right now I'd settle for that in a flash. My current pattern is true wheel, ride ten miles,
inspect completely knackered wheel, true wheel... etc.

Bob
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(Myra VanInwegen) said:

As far as I know, those noises are due to wound-up spokes unwinding, not stress relieving. I try to
avoid spoke wind-up by using copious amounts of grease both on the spoke threads and in the nipple,
and by turning the spoke wrench further than needed, then turning back. It's not 100% effective at
preventing spoke windup, but it helps alot.

Yes, thanks for that Myra. I've oiled spokes/nipples and am using the overwind and turnback method
you describe.

I did notice (after I'd done mine, doh!) that Sheldon advises against greasing rear wheel non drive
side nipples. Says that as they operate at lower tension the lubrication can actually encourage them
to unwind in use.

Bob
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bob watkinson said:

There's a good pictorial article in C+ this month on wheel truing. Out today

Ah, thanks very much, I'll pick it up.

Bob
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Tony Raven said:

Suggestions are to up the tension as you have done. Depending on rim, no of spokes etc you will
either reach the point where it becomes almost impossible to turn some of the nipples or the wheel
will go taco shaped when you stress relieve (in which case unwind one turn and retrue).

The rim is a pretty sturdy semi aero shaped 26", I'm getting enough tension into the spokes that I
can't turn the nipples any more without rounding them. I think the rim would stand more tension but
the spokes can't deliver it. Having said that I don't think this can be my problem, I had *plenty*
of tension in the wheel at the end of my last attempt but it still came apart immediately I rode it.

Thanks for your advice, I'll keep trying.

Bob
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Call me Bob wrote: <snip>

Quoted message said:

Well I intend to keep trying, but, I'm failing so dismally at the moment I'm not sure how to
proceed. Seems rather silly to keep doing the same things just for the wheel to quickly come apart
in the same way. *shrug*

I'd say that you're not tightening enough. It really does take quite a lot of tension to get it
tight: if you pluck a spoke it should be somewhere towards the alto end of the scale, if not
soprano. If it's got a male voice (except one that's just hit the crossbar), then I'd say they
weren't tight enough.

Ambrose, Going all musical

Ambrose Nankivell said:

I'd say that you're not tightening enough. It really does take quite a lot of tension to get it
tight: if you pluck a spoke it should be somewhere towards the alto end of the scale, if not
soprano. If it's got a male voice (except one that's just hit the crossbar), then I'd say they
weren't tight enough.

Yep, you are not alone in suggesting more tension is necessary. I had thought I was getting
everything tight enough but that may not have been the case prior to my last effort. The plucking
technique has opened my eyes somewhat, it makes the differences in tension very apparent. I've been
plucking all the wheels in the house this morning :o)

Thanks for your suggestions.

Bob
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Call me Bob <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

I did notice (after I'd done mine, doh!) that Sheldon advises against greasing rear wheel non
drive side nipples. Says that as they operate at lower tension the lubrication can actually
encourage them to unwind in use.

I copiously grease all nipples & spoke threads, drive side or no. I haven't had non-drive side
spokes unwinding.

-Myra

Quoted message said:

Call me Bob <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

I did notice (after I'd done mine, doh!) that Sheldon advises against greasing rear wheel non
drive side nipples. Says that as they operate at lower tension the lubrication can actually
encourage them to unwind in use.

Whether or not they would really unwind, I haven't had the need to lubricate the rear left ones -
they don't get tight enough to strictly need it.

~PB