1up vs Kurt Kinetic?

bicycle_disciple said:

I'm looking to purchase my first indoor trainer, and not only am I
looking for great performance and the 'road feel', but also something
by which I can gage my power output and related info. Kurt Kinetic has
a proprietary power meter which seems like a great idea (its like
riding with powertaps fitted onto a bike, but for much lesser).

This power meter for the Kurt Kinetic is calibrated to the
Kinetic's fluid resistance unit ONLY. You will delude yourself if you
attempt to use it to measure your power output in any other context than
with your bike attached to your trainer.

That said, subjectively, my Kinetic feels like it offers a little
bit more resistance at any given speed than does riding on the flats
(which is supposedly how the "power meter" they sell was
calibrated--by riding a bike on the flats with a real power meter at the
speeds of interest, and then computing the RPM of the Kinetic's roller for
an identical wheel circumference, from which they know how much power
you're dumping into heating up the fluid in the resistance unit). I took a
SWAG of equating the Kinetic's resistance to that which you would feel
riding up a false flat of a 1% grade or so (just to set your
expectations). This seems to work out reasonably well when judged against
Ken Roberts's "bike_power" program when I tell it to compute the power I'd
expend going up a 1% grade at the same speeds. That's not super-accurate,
of course (hence "SWAG"😉. Again, subjectively, the resistance on the Kurt
ramps up very quickly once the indicated speed is > 20mph. It seems to
me that 23mph on the Kurt is much, much harder than 26mph on the road,
which aligns with my guess that the Kurt offers resistance more like that
of a false flat than a true flat.

The fluid unit can get very, very hot if you put some time in doing
intervals or the like. After you ride a 10-20-minute cooldown, then the
fluid unit will no longer be painfully hot to the touch, but it will still
be noticeably warm.

Quoted message said:

Kurt's trainers are deemed very quiet too.

Compared to other trainers, maybe. Mine is still too loud to use in
the living room while other people are trying to watch the TV, so I use it
in the heated basement and stream MP3s on shuffle.

Quoted message said:

1up on the other hand have consistently won awards in the last 4 years
(but this is before Kurt brought out its model I believe). However, 1up
doesn't have the power meter system.

No biggie, IMHO, if you like the 1up. I have no experience with it and
cannot comment.

My personal objects of lust for indoor use are e-Motion rollers (see
http://www.insideride.com ) and the iBike Pro inertial power meter. Not
cheap, but they have the advantage of being fairly accurate (the e-Motion
rollers will let the bike move forward and back with your pedal strokes,
so that the iBike Pro has something to measure--provided that the
forward/backward motion is reasonably well-aligned with the resistance
you'd get from the road, that is), and you can use the iBike Pro outdoors
and still get meaningful results (one tester has ridden a bike with both
the iBike Pro and an SRM, and they were very, very close to each other at
the end of a long ride). I don't have either one at the moment, in no
small part due to cost. I only mention them at all because you stated
that "Money isn't an issue."

--
Chris BeHanna

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Chris BeHanna said:

bicycle_disciple said:

I'm looking to purchase my first indoor trainer, and not only am I
looking for great performance and the 'road feel', but also something
by which I can gage my power output and related info. Kurt Kinetic has
a proprietary power meter which seems like a great idea (its like
riding with powertaps fitted onto a bike, but for much lesser).

This power meter for the Kurt Kinetic is calibrated to the
Kinetic's fluid resistance unit ONLY. You will delude yourself if you
attempt to use it to measure your power output in any other context than
with your bike attached to your trainer.

That said, subjectively, my Kinetic feels like it offers a little
bit more resistance at any given speed than does riding on the flats
(which is supposedly how the "power meter" they sell was
calibrated--by riding a bike on the flats with a real power meter at the
speeds of interest, and then computing the RPM of the Kinetic's roller for
an identical wheel circumference, from which they know how much power
you're dumping into heating up the fluid in the resistance unit). I took a
SWAG of equating the Kinetic's resistance to that which you would feel
riding up a false flat of a 1% grade or so (just to set your
expectations). This seems to work out reasonably well when judged against
Ken Roberts's "bike_power" program when I tell it to compute the power I'd
expend going up a 1% grade at the same speeds. That's not super-accurate,
of course (hence "SWAG"😉. Again, subjectively, the resistance on the Kurt
ramps up very quickly once the indicated speed is > 20mph. It seems to
me that 23mph on the Kurt is much, much harder than 26mph on the road,
which aligns with my guess that the Kurt offers resistance more like that
of a false flat than a true flat.

The fluid unit can get very, very hot if you put some time in doing
intervals or the like. After you ride a 10-20-minute cooldown, then the
fluid unit will no longer be painfully hot to the touch, but it will still
be noticeably warm.

Quoted message said:

Kurt's trainers are deemed very quiet too.

Compared to other trainers, maybe. Mine is still too loud to use in
the living room while other people are trying to watch the TV, so I use it
in the heated basement and stream MP3s on shuffle.

Quoted message said:

1up on the other hand have consistently won awards in the last 4 years
(but this is before Kurt brought out its model I believe). However, 1up
doesn't have the power meter system.

No biggie, IMHO, if you like the 1up. I have no experience with it and
cannot comment.

My personal objects of lust for indoor use are e-Motion rollers (see
http://www.insideride.com ) and the iBike Pro inertial power meter. Not
cheap, but they have the advantage of being fairly accurate (the e-Motion
rollers will let the bike move forward and back with your pedal strokes,
so that the iBike Pro has something to measure--provided that the
forward/backward motion is reasonably well-aligned with the resistance
you'd get from the road, that is), and you can use the iBike Pro outdoors
and still get meaningful results (one tester has ridden a bike with both
the iBike Pro and an SRM, and they were very, very close to each other at
the end of a long ride). I don't have either one at the moment, in no
small part due to cost. I only mention them at all because you stated
that "Money isn't an issue."

--
Chris BeHanna

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http://www.geocities.com/almost_fast/trainerpower/

Scroll down for individual plots.

dianne_1234 said:

Chris BeHanna said:

On Fri, 20 Oct 2006 18:18:18 -0700, bicycle_disciple wrote:

[...snip...]

That said, subjectively, my Kinetic feels like it offers a little
bit more resistance at any given speed than does riding on the flats
(which is supposedly how the "power meter" they sell was
calibrated--by riding a bike on the flats with a real power meter at the
speeds of interest, and then computing the RPM of the Kinetic's roller for
an identical wheel circumference, from which they know how much power
you're dumping into heating up the fluid in the resistance unit). I took a
SWAG of equating the Kinetic's resistance to that which you would feel
riding up a false flat of a 1% grade or so (just to set your
expectations). This seems to work out reasonably well when judged against
Ken Roberts's "bike_power" program when I tell it to compute the power I'd
expend going up a 1% grade at the same speeds. That's not super-accurate,
of course (hence "SWAG"😉. Again, subjectively, the resistance on the Kurt
ramps up very quickly once the indicated speed is > 20mph. It seems to
me that 23mph on the Kurt is much, much harder than 26mph on the road,
which aligns with my guess that the Kurt offers resistance more like that
of a false flat than a true flat.

[...snip...]

http://www.geocities.com/almost_fast/trainerpower/

Scroll down for individual plots.

Thanks!

That tends to validate my perception that the Kinetic is harder than
the roads, true flat or false flat. No wonder I'm wrung out after
intervals on the Kinetic!

--
Chris BeHanna

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Chris,

Looking at the first graph on that page submitted by a reader, the
lines for the validated curve and kurt road machine seem pretty
parallel (not considering very low speeds) , and at a managable speeds
(say 30kmph = 18.5mph), the offset in power seems to be approximately
50 watts. I can't get a quanitative feel for that number in terms of
exertion because I've never had an experience hooking up my bike to a
power meter and noting what it feels like putting 50 watts to the
pedal.

When you say you're wrung out doing intervals, what are the typical
speeds you reach on the trainer for your full efforts?

Refering to that first graph again, 1up would seem much more difficult
to ride. That could possibly mean something negative for your knees,
wouldn't it? You're taking more loads than actually needed. But then,
what about stationary bikes? I wonder how off their graphs would look
like compared to the validated curve.

Also, about the heating up issue, I have to talk to a Kurt's Techie to
know how much that heating can be. A warm up is difintely a good idea,
and if a fluid trainer gives you the road feel more than the magnetic
one, I don't mind the little extra warming up of the fluid. However,
I'll be pretty [censored] if I get a fluid leak. Have you encountered
any technical difficulties like that with your trainer?

Thanks,
Ron

Chris BeHanna said:

dianne_1234 said:

Chris BeHanna said:

On Fri, 20 Oct 2006 18:18:18 -0700, bicycle_disciple wrote:

[...snip...]

That said, subjectively, my Kinetic feels like it offers a little
bit more resistance at any given speed than does riding on the flats
(which is supposedly how the "power meter" they sell was
calibrated--by riding a bike on the flats with a real power meter at the
speeds of interest, and then computing the RPM of the Kinetic's roller for
an identical wheel circumference, from which they know how much power
you're dumping into heating up the fluid in the resistance unit). I took a
SWAG of equating the Kinetic's resistance to that which you would feel
riding up a false flat of a 1% grade or so (just to set your
expectations). This seems to work out reasonably well when judged against
Ken Roberts's "bike_power" program when I tell it to compute the power I'd
expend going up a 1% grade at the same speeds. That's not super-accurate,
of course (hence "SWAG"😉. Again, subjectively, the resistance on the Kurt
ramps up very quickly once the indicated speed is > 20mph. It seems to
me that 23mph on the Kurt is much, much harder than 26mph on the road,
which aligns with my guess that the Kurt offers resistance more like that
of a false flat than a true flat.

[...snip...]

http://www.geocities.com/almost_fast/trainerpower/

Scroll down for individual plots.

Thanks!

That tends to validate my perception that the Kinetic is harder than
the roads, true flat or false flat. No wonder I'm wrung out after
intervals on the Kinetic!

--
Chris BeHanna

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----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----

Quoted message said:

Chris BeHanna said:

bicycle_disciple said:

I'm looking to purchase my first indoor trainer, and not only am I
looking for great performance and the 'road feel', but also something
by which I can gage my power output and related info. Kurt Kinetic has
a proprietary power meter which seems like a great idea (its like
riding with powertaps fitted onto a bike, but for much lesser).

This power meter for the Kurt Kinetic is calibrated to the
Kinetic's fluid resistance unit ONLY. You will delude yourself if you
attempt to use it to measure your power output in any other context than
with your bike attached to your trainer.

That said, subjectively, my Kinetic feels like it offers a little
bit more resistance at any given speed than does riding on the flats
(which is supposedly how the "power meter" they sell was
calibrated--by riding a bike on the flats with a real power meter at the
speeds of interest, and then computing the RPM of the Kinetic's roller for
an identical wheel circumference, from which they know how much power
you're dumping into heating up the fluid in the resistance unit). I took a
SWAG of equating the Kinetic's resistance to that which you would feel
riding up a false flat of a 1% grade or so (just to set your
expectations). This seems to work out reasonably well when judged against
Ken Roberts's "bike_power" program when I tell it to compute the power I'd
expend going up a 1% grade at the same speeds. That's not super-accurate,
of course (hence "SWAG"😉. Again, subjectively, the resistance on the Kurt
ramps up very quickly once the indicated speed is > 20mph. It seems to
me that 23mph on the Kurt is much, much harder than 26mph on the road,
which aligns with my guess that the Kurt offers resistance more like that
of a false flat than a true flat.

The fluid unit can get very, very hot if you put some time in doing
intervals or the like. After you ride a 10-20-minute cooldown, then the
fluid unit will no longer be painfully hot to the touch, but it will still
be noticeably warm.

Quoted message said:

Kurt's trainers are deemed very quiet too.

Compared to other trainers, maybe. Mine is still too loud to use in
the living room while other people are trying to watch the TV, so I use it
in the heated basement and stream MP3s on shuffle.

Quoted message said:

1up on the other hand have consistently won awards in the last 4 years
(but this is before Kurt brought out its model I believe). However, 1up
doesn't have the power meter system.

No biggie, IMHO, if you like the 1up. I have no experience with it and
cannot comment.

My personal objects of lust for indoor use are e-Motion rollers (see
http://www.insideride.com ) and the iBike Pro inertial power meter. Not
cheap, but they have the advantage of being fairly accurate (the e-Motion
rollers will let the bike move forward and back with your pedal strokes,
so that the iBike Pro has something to measure--provided that the
forward/backward motion is reasonably well-aligned with the resistance
you'd get from the road, that is), and you can use the iBike Pro outdoors
and still get meaningful results (one tester has ridden a bike with both
the iBike Pro and an SRM, and they were very, very close to each other at
the end of a long ride). I don't have either one at the moment, in no
small part due to cost. I only mention them at all because you stated
that "Money isn't an issue."

--
Chris BeHanna

----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==----
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----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----

http://www.geocities.com/almost_fast/trainerpower/

Scroll down for individual plots.

The x cubed component in both 1UP and Kurt's graph (power vs speed)
seem pretty low as one should expect, and Kurt's seems much more to the
true road feel than 1UP.

Can anyone offer a better interpretation of the graphs or challenge
what I'm thinking - that Kurt's road machine is better than 1UP's?

-Ron
http://cozybeehive.blogspot.com

bicycle_disciple said:

Can anyone offer a better interpretation of the graphs or challenge
what I'm thinking - that Kurt's road machine is better than 1UP's?

What's meant by "better"? Higher fidelity to outdoor riding might not
be what you want in an indoor trainer. If the curve matches level
cycling outdoors, how do you train for low speed / high power pedalling
indoors? I'm thinking here of simulating hill climbing: low cadence,
high force.