Power training VO2 max

Quadsweep said:

I understand that it is important to not go above 100-105% VO2 max when doing VO2 max intervals. The reason I gather is that going above this will limit time that one can hold VO2 max and also it will be training the anaerobic energy system.

No, I don't believe that to be the case. The body will still achieve VO2max even if the effort is slightly above. The remainder of the energy demands will be drawn from anaerobic means.

Quadsweep said:

Normally, I would do 5 minute VO2 max intervals. I would ramp up the effort in the first 45-60 seconds to a pace that I thought I could hold for 4-5 minutes. Now with my new power meter I am wondering how much above my threshold power I would go to reach VO2 max. I am thinking 15% .?

It depends on the individual, but typically 115-120% of FTP.

frenchyge said:

It depends on the individual, but typically 115-120% of FTP.

Mine is about about 140%. My FTP really stinks. 🙂

Most of the time I try to do iso power right away at target power but sometimes I try a sprint start and try to maintain iso power afterwards to simulate some race starts. (cx/track/mtb)

I have no idea what's better but I've never been in a race where they ramp it up gently for 45 to 60 seconds, unless the climb was really, really long.

frenchyge said:

No, I don't believe that to be the case. The body will still achieve VO2max even if the effort is slightly above. The remainder of the energy demands will be drawn from anaerobic means.

It depends on the individual, but typically 115-120% of FTP.

That's what I thought too but not according to this PHD in exercise physiology(link below)....and another one that I read from my running career.

My thoughts were if I start the interval above VO2 max it becomes an anaerobic interval stressing the anaerobic glycolic energy system. Then after a couple minutes, the extend of what the body can hold anaerobic effort, your effort simply dies off. But I was of the impression that you would die off into VO2 max territory and hold it there for the next several minutes and thus stress the VO2 system for at least the last minute or two of the interval. The impression I get from the articled linked below is that one simply dies off PERIOD and cannot hold a VO2 max effort.

peakscoachinggroup.comIntervals for vo2max.htmlOpen ↗

Quadsweep said:

I understand that it is important to not go above 100-105% VO2 max when doing VO2 max intervals. The reason I gather is that going above this will limit time that one can hold VO2 max and also it will be training the anaerobic energy system.

Normally, I would do 5 minute VO2 max intervals. I would ramp up the effort in the first 45-60 seconds to a pace that I thought I could hold for 4-5 minutes. Now with my new power meter I am wondering how much above my threshold power I would go to reach VO2 max. I am thinking 15% .?

Here is a great thread about VO2Max intervals from Topica.

http://lists.topica.com/lists/wattage/read/message.html?mid=913346382&sort=d&start=43832

Jim

Woofer said:

Mine is about about 140%.

From your comment, I assume that you must know your actual VO2max as well as your cycling efficiency. If you don't, then you also don't know how much above your functional threshold power you need to train to be at VO2max.

Quadsweep said:

That's what I thought too but not according to this PHD in exercise physiology(link below)]

I don't see how the article Steve* wrote contradicts what frenchyge said?

*I figure that I can now call him by his first name now that we've met in person and he gave me a ride to the airport yesterday. 😉

Quadsweep said:

My thoughts were if I start the interval above VO2 max it becomes an anaerobic interval stressing the anaerobic glycolic energy system.

Not necessarily 'stressing' that system, no. The body will ramp up to VO2max, and use whatever additional energy it needs from anaerobic sources. Depending on how far you overshoot the pVO2max target, the anaerobic energy demands may be pretty small or significant, but you're unlikely to deplete the anaerobic capacity in one interval unless you really blow it on the pacing. The 'stressing' part happens when the anaerobic tank is pretty much emptied and the system is being called upon to refill quickly for another effort.

Quadsweep said:

The impression I get from the articled linked below is that one simply dies off PERIOD and cannot hold a VO2 max effort.

I don't really think that's the point of that graph, although I can see how one might draw that conclusion. The interval duration associated with each %pVO2max isn't necessarily supposed to represent a *max* duration, but rather an example duration to help make the point. In reality, I can hold 133% FT (~110% pVO2max) for over 5 minutes in a single effort. Eventually, yes, power will drop below pVO2max, but that takes longer than most VO2max intervals will be calling for.

I think the point of the article really boils down to: there's really no *additional* VO2max benefit from riding intervals above pVO2max, and you may actually be compromising the total time you're capable of spending at VO2max in doing so. In the real world, if you overshoot pVO2max initially but quickly settle back down to a sustainable power level, the interval will likely still be productive.

Additionally, I'd point out that anaerobic energy supplements aerobic energy as needed. There's really no one-or-the-other 'switchover' point. Hope that helps. There's really nothing in that article that I'd disagree with. 🙂

frenchyge said:

I think the point of the article really boils down to: there's really no *additional* VO2max benefit from riding intervals above pVO2max, and you may actually be compromising the total time you're capable of spending at VO2max in doing so.

Two comments (please note that I'm not picking on you, you have just given me a good opportunity to share a couple of thoughts):

1) if your heart rate isn't close to maximum towards the end of a level 5 interval, you're not training at 100% of VO2max, much less above it, and

2) the idea that time spent at/near VO2max is an important determinant of the magnitude of the training effect is just an unproven - in fact, AFAIK a completely untested - theory.

acoggan said:

Two comments (please note that I'm not picking on you, you have just given me a good opportunity to share a couple of thoughts):

1) if your heart rate isn't close to maximum towards the end of a level 5 interval, you're not training at 100% of VO2max, much less above it, and

2) the idea that time spent at/near VO2max is an important determinant of the magnitude of the training effect is just an unproven - in fact, AFAIK a completely untested - theory.

Watch out you don't get stoned to death for referring to max HR 😄

acoggan said:

Two comments (please note that I'm not picking on you, you have just given me a good opportunity to share a couple of thoughts):

1) if your heart rate isn't close to maximum towards the end of a level 5 interval, you're not training at 100% of VO2max, much less above it, and

2) the idea that time spent at/near VO2max is an important determinant of the magnitude of the training effect is just an unproven - in fact, AFAIK a completely untested - theory.

Ok, no offense taken. 🙂 Aside from time spent near VO2max, what other theoretical determinants are there for the magnitude of the training effect?

Bruce Diesel said:

Watch out you don't get stoned to death for referring to max HR 😄

LOL. Yeah, I was wondering how one would determine their HRmax in order to determine their proximity at the end of the interval. 🙂

Quadsweep said:

Now with my new power meter I am wondering how much above my threshold power I would go to reach VO2 max. I am thinking 15% .?

Don't worry too much for now if you're new.

Think more in term of power/duration. 5 minutes is probably fine. Ramping up the power during the 1 minute is also probably fine. 3 to 5 reps of these is fine too.

You know, the goal for you as a rider isn't that much to know precisely at which % of FTP your pVO2Max is. You goal is to perform the best possible set of 3-5 reps, 5 minute each at an intensity that's between 90 and 100% of the max avg power you can generate over this duration.

Later when you visit a lab, you may find out how this figure compares to your true power at VO2Max, given it gets tested properly.

acoggan said:

Two comments (please note that I'm not picking on you, you have just given me a good opportunity to share a couple of thoughts):

1) if your heart rate isn't close to maximum towards the end of a level 5 interval, you're not training at 100% of VO2max, much less above it, and

2) the idea that time spent at/near VO2max is an important determinant of the magnitude of the training effect is just an unproven - in fact, AFAIK a completely untested - theory.

I liked the first comment Andy. But the second one blows me away. Regarding #2 why then do we try to do 15-25 minutes at VO2 max in training....has this time been arrived upon simply by the trail and error of high end athletes?

You did say "close to" and and not 100% max heart rate[img]cyclingforums.comsmile.gifOpen ↗[/img]
Accroding to the worlds #1 Ruuning guru, and PHD in Exercise physiology, and exercise physiology pioneer, Jack Daniels, most altheletes reach 100% VO2 max BELOW your maximum heart rate at between 95 and 98 % max heart rate IF one is not fatigued from the training week, otherwise it may be lower.

Quadsweep said:

Accroding to the worlds #1 Ruuning guru, and PHD in Exercise physiology, and exercise physiology pioneer, Jack Daniels, most altheletes reach 100% VO2 max BELOW your maximum heart rate at between 95 and 98 % max heart rate.

1. In my book, 95-98% of maximum heart rate is "close to maximum".

2. Daniel's is undoubtly referring to what happens during an incremental exercise test to determine VO2max. Due to cardiac drift, heart rate will (have to) be higher to (repeatedly) achieve VO2max during interval training (and note that I also specified "...towards the end of a level 5 interval."😉.

frenchyge said:

Aside from time spent near VO2max, what other theoretical determinants are there for the magnitude of the training effect?

I would say that an equally plausible hypothesis is that the magnitude of the training effect depends on how to maximum you repeatedly drive cardiac output.

acoggan said:

1. In my book, 95-98% of maximum heart rate is "close to maximum".

2. Daniel's is undoubtly referring to what happens during an incremental exercise test to determine VO2max. Due to cardiac drift, heart rate will (have to) be higher to (repeatedly) achieve VO2max during interval training (and note that I also specified "...towards the end of a level 5 interval."😉.

Good reply...and I wasn't on the attack...I was backing you up with Daniels Andy [img]cyclingforums.comsmile.gifOpen ↗[/img]

But what about your second comment regarding time at VO2 max? Have we arrived at 15-25 minutes at VO2 max simply by trail and error.?

I won't attempt to help Andy of course for obvious reasons.

But there's a difference between HR at minimal power that elicit VO2Max, and HR at the end of a VO2Max interval. The precise point or picture taken of the HR when you reach pVO2Max is one thing. But then after HR continues to rise.

And to give you a concrete example, my estimated max HR is 186. If I can't crank my HR to over 180 in a L5 workout, then something is wrong. That's where I expect my HR to be in such a workout. I never reached 186 (not this summer), but that's because I don't workout hard enough :o

** edit ** oups sorry. I just noticed that I was responding to an old post. Sorry, just forget it. **

Quadsweep said:

I liked the first comment Andy. But the second one blows me away. Regarding #2 why then do we try to do 15-25 minutes at VO2 max in training....has this time been arrived upon simply by the trail and error of high end athletes?

Our posts seem to be passing like ships in the night...

Yes, I would say that the common practice of doing 15-25 min of intervals at/near VO2max is really just a matter of trial-and-error, i.e., people do that much because that's about all they can routinely do.

acoggan said:

.... on how to maximum you repeatedly drive cardiac output.

how... [close] to maximum? how... [often] to maximum? Did I miss something? 😕