They're back!

burt quoted:

Quoted message said:

Are these people aware that there is a perfectly safe cycle path that runs
from the pedestrian crossing just down from Asda, all the way along to the
Avon Packet?

This being the cyclepath in question:
<url:http://www.colyer.plus.com/danny/cycling/farce/corrd.jpg>

--
Danny Colyer <URL:http://www.colyer.plus.com/danny/>
Bristol to Bath by unicycle: <http://www.bristoltobathonaunicycle.co.uk>
"He who dares not offend cannot be honest." - Thomas Paine

"burt" <[email hidden]> writes:

**snip**

Quoted message said:

He isn't the only one that's angry. I am too, because our city has
been taken over by idiots like him who think that they have a right
to drive anywhere, anytime at any speed and never mind the
pollution, danger and inconvenience they cause.

Get out of your car and get a life Mr Harding."

Bravissimo!

I've ridden along that road a few times and it's the cars (parked
intentionally and unintentionally) that cause the queues, not the
cyclists.

Chris
--
Chris Eilbeck

burt wrote:

<letters snipped>

Good response, if a little long. I wonder if they'll print it?

--
Dave...

Danny Colyer said:

burt quoted:

Quoted message said:

Are these people aware that there is a perfectly safe cycle path that runs
from the pedestrian crossing just down from Asda, all the way along to the
Avon Packet?

This being the cyclepath in question:
<url:http://www.colyer.plus.com/danny/cycling/farce/corrd.jpg>

You'd have to be a complete idiot to cycle on that. The road doesn't
look that narrow anyway, so what on earth is the problem?

--
Dave...

dkahn400 said the following on 13/10/2006 02:17:

Quoted message said:

You'd have to be a complete idiot to cycle on that. The road doesn't
look that narrow anyway, so what on earth is the problem?

I think the complaining driver must be the blind idiot who needs to
engage his brain not to be able to see why cyclists don't use that
so-called cycle path. That tree in the photo isn't one isolated tree
either - they go all along the road.

I'm so glad I moved out of Bristol a few years ago and away from some of
these ignorant drivers. Terrible place to drive or cycle!

--
Paul Boyd
http://www.paul-boyd.co.uk/

Paul Boyd wrote on 13/10/2006 08:40 +0100:

Quoted message said:

dkahn400 said the following on 13/10/2006 02:17:

Quoted message said:

You'd have to be a complete idiot to cycle on that. The road doesn't
look that narrow anyway, so what on earth is the problem?

I think the complaining driver must be the blind idiot who needs to
engage his brain not to be able to see why cyclists don't use that
so-called cycle path. That tree in the photo isn't one isolated tree
either - they go all along the road.

I'm so glad I moved out of Bristol a few years ago and away from some of
these ignorant drivers. Terrible place to drive or cycle!

The times I've cycled there recently the whole centre seemed to be in
gridlock so I enjoyed a nice cycle past stationary traffic. Colleagues
who took a car to Temple Meads and very nearly missed the train were
actually commenting positively about the benefits of my having been on a
bike and arriving 20 mins earlier than them. Every dark cloud etc...

--
Tony

"Anyone who conducts an argument by appealing to authority is not using
his intelligence; he is just using his memory."
- Leonardo da Vinci

Tony Raven said the following on 13/10/2006 09:15:

Quoted message said:

The times I've cycled there recently the whole centre seemed to be in
gridlock so I enjoyed a nice cycle past stationary traffic. Colleagues
who took a car to Temple Meads and very nearly missed the train were
actually commenting positively about the benefits of my having been on a
bike and arriving 20 mins earlier than them. Every dark cloud etc...

I used to have to drive that way commuting, which was part of the reason
for moving to be near work. I once sat for an hour on Clarence Road in
gridlock, in the dark with my lights and engine off, reading a magazine
by the street lights. A cyclist sailed past and shouted "lights!" at
me. I'm afraid my muttered reply might have been less than gracious ;-)

--
Paul Boyd
http://www.paul-boyd.co.uk/

in message <[email hidden]>, Danny Colyer

(') said:

burt quoted:

Quoted message said:

Are these people aware that there is a perfectly safe cycle path that
runs from the pedestrian crossing just down from Asda, all the way along
to the Avon Packet?

This being the cyclepath in question:
<url:http://www.colyer.plus.com/danny/cycling/farce/corrd.jpg>

Burt, if you haven't already sent your letter, could you include that
photo? Danny, if it's yours, could you put a higher resolution version up
somewhere for him? It makes the point rather clearly.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; 'I think we should trust our president in every decision
;; that he makes and we should just support that'
;; Britney Spears of George W Bush, CNN 04:09:03

burt wrote:

A very good letter with some very good points, except...

Quoted message said:

Almost all the roads in
Bristol suffer massive tailbacks every day, with hundreds of cars, and that
isn't caused by cyclists, it's caused by drivers.

Here you let yourself down, and leave yourself open to exactly the same
criticism that you make of the original letter writer. Congestion is
generally due to poor supply and/or design of road infrastructure, and
not the fault of the road user (cyclist or motorist). Think of hospital
waiting lists or broadband. We are not telling those who rely on the
NHS that it is their own fault that they have to wait because it is
/they/ who are ill. Nor do we expect to be told not to use the internet
so much because of network congestion. We /expect/ the supply to meet
the demand.

--
Matt B

Following on from Matt B's message. . .

Quoted message said:

burt wrote:

A very good letter with some very good points, except...

Quoted message said:

Almost all the roads in
Bristol suffer massive tailbacks every day, with hundreds of cars, and that
isn't caused by cyclists, it's caused by drivers.

Here you let yourself down, and leave yourself open to exactly the same
criticism that you make of the original letter writer. Congestion is
generally due to poor supply and/or design of road infrastructure, and
not the fault of the road user (cyclist or motorist). Think of hospital
waiting lists or broadband. We are not telling those who rely on the
NHS that it is their own fault that they have to wait because it is
/they/ who are ill. Nor do we expect to be told not to use the internet
so much because of network congestion. We /expect/ the supply to meet
the demand.

Bzzzt wrong.
(1) Congestion is caused by too much traffic. How did we ever manage a
decade or two ago?
(2) Congestion is not relieved by more roads. In fact new roads
/generate/ more traffic. (This has been known since 1932)

--
PETER FOX Not the same since the bookshop idea was shelved
[email hidden]
2 Tees Close, Witham, Essex.
Gravity beer in Essex <http://www.eminent.demon.co.uk>

Peter Fox said:

Following on from Matt B's message. . .

Quoted message said:

burt wrote:

A very good letter with some very good points, except...

Quoted message said:

Almost all the roads in
Bristol suffer massive tailbacks every day, with hundreds of cars,
and that
isn't caused by cyclists, it's caused by drivers.

Here you let yourself down, and leave yourself open to exactly the same
criticism that you make of the original letter writer. Congestion is
generally due to poor supply and/or design of road infrastructure, and
not the fault of the road user (cyclist or motorist). Think of hospital
waiting lists or broadband. We are not telling those who rely on the
NHS that it is their own fault that they have to wait because it is
/they/ who are ill. Nor do we expect to be told not to use the internet
so much because of network congestion. We /expect/ the supply to meet
the demand.

Bzzzt wrong.
(1) Congestion is caused by too much traffic. How did we ever manage a
decade or two ago?
(2) Congestion is not relieved by more roads. In fact new roads
/generate/ more traffic. (This has been known since 1932)

Hehe. Like more hospital waiting lists are caused by too many ill
people. There never used to be waiting lists in the good old days ;-)
More roads /may/ free latent demand, but who are we to deny those who
wish to use the roads that right? A cursory look at traffic levels and
road provision shows beyond doubt that there is no causal link between
the two. What we will also see is the direct causal link between poor
traffic engineering and congestion in our cities.

--
Matt B

Matt B said:

Hehe. Like more hospital waiting lists are caused by too many ill people.
There never used to be waiting lists in the good old days ;-) More roads

There probably weren't. There were less treatements available, so more
people would have died from things we can now treat.

Quoted message said:

/may/ free latent demand, but who are we to deny those who wish to use the
roads that right? A cursory look at traffic levels and road provision shows

What 'right'?

They have a right (or permission, if they drive) to use the roads that are
there now. Do I have the right to a congestion-free journey to/from work
everyday? I'll await the new road to be built from my door to the office
then.

How many more roads do we need to build? There is a finiate amount of
space, unless you plan we turn it all into roads so we can all excercise
our 'right' to drive.

The general over-use of 'rights' does rather annoy me, usually because
it's used in the sense of "well its my right to do this, to hell with
anyone else".

Quoted message said:

beyond doubt that there is no causal link between the two. What we will also
see is the direct causal link between poor traffic engineering and congestion
in our cities.

Poor traffic engineering also can make cycling more hazardous that it
needs to be.
--
Chris Johns

burt said:

Coronation Road,

Why is it Coronation Road, and its truly farcical cycle path, that
causes so much heat? We never get this amount of grief North of the
river.

Nice letter BTW

Some years back I lived in Bedminster. I was cycling along a busy
Corrie road, on the opposite side to the cycle path, when some git in
an Audi decided to encourage me to use it by running me off the road
and onto the pavement, with the usual torrent of abuse.

That tree is hilarious, once you know it's there. Bit of a swine if you
first meet it in the dark though - there's a good few dents in the
trunk where non-locals have obviously gone straight into it.

Matt B said:

We are not telling those who rely on the
NHS that it is their own fault that they have to wait because it is
/they/ who are ill.

Unless it really /is/ their choice to be ill: see e.g. smokers,
alcoholics, the obese, etc etc. To a greater or lesser extent
Government health policy considers all of these lifestyle choices to be
undesirable, and attempts to discourage them.

What's the equivalent for the large number of unnecessary and
undesirable car journeys that increases the load on the road system?

-dan

Simon Brooke said:

Burt, if you haven't already sent your letter, could you include that
photo? Danny, if it's yours, could you put a higher resolution version up
somewhere for him? It makes the point rather clearly.

I've no objection to the photo being used. I've found a higher
resolution version on my hard drive:
<url:http://www.colyer.plus.com/z-corrd.jpg>

Unfortunately this picture was taken using a film camera, so this is as
good as it gets without finding the print and scanning it again. Which
would involve moving furniture.

--
Danny Colyer <URL:http://www.colyer.plus.com/danny/>
Bristol to Bath by unicycle: <http://www.bristoltobathonaunicycle.co.uk>
"He who dares not offend cannot be honest." - Thomas Paine

Chris Johns twisted the electrons to say:

Quoted message said:

How many more roads do we need to build? There is a finiate amount of
space, unless you plan we turn it all into roads so we can all excercise
our 'right' to drive.

To judge from his previous postings, IIRC, TrollB's utopian idea for the
road network is for all roads to be motorways with junctions every 100
(or so) metres. He also desires the removal of number plates from motor
vehicles ...
--
These opinions might not even be mine ...
Let alone connected with my employer ...

"Matt B" <[email hidden]> wrote in

[snip]

Quoted message said:

Here you let yourself down, and leave yourself open to exactly the
same criticism that you make of the original letter writer.
Congestion is generally due to poor supply and/or design of road
infrastructure, and not the fault of the road user (cyclist or
motorist).

[snip]

A shortage, of road space, or anything, is the very definition of
supply and demand not matching.

An economist would talk about distortions in the price mechanism
interfering with market clearing.

Ken Livingstone, good capitalist that he is, is trying to do
something about that, with his congestion charge, but really, people
ought to have to buy a driving permit on E-bay, before each time they
set off, so we could get an accurate idea of what the correct
congestion charge really is.

Jeremy Parker

Chris Johns said:

Matt B said:

Hehe. Like more hospital waiting lists are caused by too many ill
people. There never used to be waiting lists in the good old days ;-)
More roads

There probably weren't. There were less treatements available, so more
people would have died from things we can now treat.

Ah, we have to allow for progress, yes.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

/may/ free latent demand, but who are we to deny those who wish to use
the roads that right? A cursory look at traffic levels and road
provision shows

What 'right'?

As we all know, you could be forgiven for concluding that, practically,
and perceptually, our system actually gives the motorist more rights
than pedestrians, what with the way roads are delineated with kerbs, and
pedestrians are provided with 'pedestrian crossings', and they have to
stop look left, look right etc.

Quoted message said:

They have a right (or permission, if they drive) to use the roads that
are there now. Do I have the right to a congestion-free journey to/from
work everyday? I'll await the new road to be built from my door to the
office then.

And here lies the misunderstanding. We don't necessarily need new roads
to solve congestion, just clever use of the ones we already have. By
all means provide sufficient roads of sufficient capacity to deal with
inter-city journeys, but in-town allow for traffic to actually /flow/ on
the excellent streets that we already have but do not allow to be used.

Quoted message said:

How many more roads do we need to build? There is a finiate amount of
space, unless you plan we turn it all into roads so we can all excercise
our 'right' to drive.

See above - first let's use the ones we already have.

Quoted message said:

The general over-use of 'rights' does rather annoy me, usually because
it's used in the sense of "well its my right to do this, to hell with
anyone else".

Surely it is our /collective/ right to have free use of the highways,
without giving de facto priority to motorists, and the utter waste of
their capacity and potential by highway engineers.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

beyond doubt that there is no causal link between the two. What we
will also see is the direct causal link between poor traffic
engineering and congestion in our cities.

Poor traffic engineering also can make cycling more hazardous that it
needs to be.

Exactly. Why should we tolerate it. We need safe roads for all users,
and equal priority for all.

--
Matt B

Alistair Gunn said:

Chris Johns twisted the electrons to say:

Quoted message said:

How many more roads do we need to build? There is a finiate amount of
space, unless you plan we turn it all into roads so we can all excercise
our 'right' to drive.

To judge from his previous postings, IIRC, TrollB's utopian idea for the
road network is for all roads to be motorways with junctions every 100
(or so) metres. He also desires the removal of number plates from motor
vehicles ...

Yup, who needs space for homes, parks, offices, etc.. tear them all down
and create one superhighway. That's what I ended up doing in SimCity.

--
Don Whybrow

Sequi Bonum Non Time

Question _your own_ authority.