quick trainer/power question

I think you'll be fine after a few more rides on the trainer. See: cyclingforums.comt279842.htmlOpen ↗ for details.

whoawhoa said:

So the other day I tried to see how holding my outdoor FTP felt on the trainer. And, contrary to what I thought would be true, it was hard! I held it for 10 minutes and quit. Maybe I could have gotten to 15 if I wanted to destroy myself....The catch here is, it was done in a 75 degree room with only a ceiling fan. Does anyone with lots of trainer experience think I'll be fine when I'm doing intervals this winter at more like 50 degrees?

i think 50F/~10C is pretty good... even down to 5C/41F... may have to start with a shirt on and take it off after your warm up... i've found it to be a HUGE factor.. about 50% of puzzle the other half being sufficient inertial loading (i.e. as large a flywheel/heavy rollers as you can get your hands on) these two factors will get your numbers and the enjoyablity as close to outside as possible and allow you to stay on your trainer for longer periods of time without getting dehydrated, sick, warn down and discourage...

[Edit] think you know about this thread as well... http://www.cyclingforums.com/t-343971-15-3.html

whoawhoa said:

So the other day I tried to see how holding my outdoor FTP felt on the trainer. And, contrary to what I thought would be true, it was hard! I held it for 10 minutes and quit. Maybe I could have gotten to 15 if I wanted to destroy myself....The catch here is, it was done in a 75 degree room with only a ceiling fan. Does anyone with lots of trainer experience think I'll be fine when I'm doing intervals this winter at more like 50 degrees?

Geeez WW you'll be fine. If this old guy can do it, so can you. Mind you, it was only last week after 8 months on the trainer that I finally got used to dictating to the body, telling it that I would say when it was time to give up.

I'm sure it is both mentally and physically harder than outdoors, however, continuing will pay dividends. Mark my words. Tyson😉

I am with whoawhoa, I reckon its rediculously hard to do efforts on the W/T. I can push myself till I collapse on the road, and im not joking either...after a few races I've been known to just lie there looking at the purple clouds for 10 minutes too weak to get up. Eventually my parents decide enough was enough and carry me into the car to recover:p . But on a windtrainer I just can't do it! maybe I could if someone was competing with me but I doubt thats the case because I seem to be able to push myself on solo rides outdoors just not indoors.

It just seems to hurt more indoors where as outdoors or in races the pain barrier explodes with all the addrenalin and EGO (not epo, EGO! works much better 😉 )floating around.

whoawhoa said:

So the other day I tried to see how holding my outdoor FTP felt on the trainer. And, contrary to what I thought would be true, it was hard! I held it for 10 minutes and quit. Maybe I could have gotten to 15 if I wanted to destroy myself....The catch here is, it was done in a 75 degree room with only a ceiling fan. Does anyone with lots of trainer experience think I'll be fine when I'm doing intervals this winter at more like 50 degrees?

I have spent the last 2 months or so, doing threshold work(3-4 day blocks) on the trainer with a fan that doesn't quite cut it. The LT work feels harder because the durations are longer and there's very little to thinks about like when you're out on the road. The more you do, the easier it becomes.

With regards to winter turbo work, my turbo is in the garage so its cold to start with, meaning a good warm-up but then I still use a fan because it helps with long efforts even in cool conditions.

AndROOb said:

I have spent the last 2 months or so, doing threshold work(3-4 day blocks) on the trainer with a fan that doesn't quite cut it. The LT work feels harder because the durations are longer and there's very little to thinks about like when you're out on the road. The more you do, the easier it becomes.

With regards to winter turbo work, my turbo is in the garage so its cold to start with, meaning a good warm-up but then I still use a fan because it helps with long efforts even in cool conditions.

yeah... i agree, even in the 5C (40F)-10C (50F) room you still need a fan because after you get warmed up or do a few intervals you'll get too hot.. i have two big box fans stacked on top of each other one covers my legs and the higher one covers my legs... again if you want to be on there for any length of time...

the other thing is that in the thread that i posted above (especially towards the end) the participants pretty much figured out how/why it is PHYSICALLY harder for some/most to ride inside vs outside... even Dr. Coggan was on side (admitting it made sense) in the end.. it's not just a mental thing... but it was also discovered that a big, heavy flywheel will diminish this effect. the only thing that was NOT really fleshed out was if the addaptation to low inertial weight riding (trainer/rollers with small flywheel and small light roller) is beneficial and if it is beneficial to all...

doctorSpoc said:

the participants pretty much figured out how/why it is PHYSICALLY harder for some/most to ride inside vs outside

Actually, several of us find it no more difficult to ride high-intensity efforts on the trainer vs. the road and some find it less difficult. For example, I'm pretty sure this applies to Dr. C, Ric and frenchyge. I put myself in that camp as well.

RapDaddyo said:

Actually, several of us find it no more difficult to ride high-intensity efforts on the trainer vs. the road and some find it less difficult. For example, I'm pretty sure this applies to Dr. C, Ric and frenchyge. I put myself in that camp as well.

yep.. but the op of this thread is reaching out to others that DO find it more difficult to ride indoor on trainers and have managed to mitigate the difference... so that being said that kinda puts you at a disadvantage in providing help to the op since you have never had to mitigate the differences... also Dr Coggan (far be it for me to speak for him... read his posts in the thread i've posted), even though he did say that he doesn't have difficulty matching his outdoor numbers indoors.. undstands how and why it might not be the case for all and for real physical/physilogical reasons not just motivation/mental toughness reasons and not just heat exhaustion reasons even though those are contributing factors... like i said, read the above thread.. i'm not going to rehash the whole discussion again it's been quite thoughly flogged and even addresses the reasons why certain individuals would see the same numbers indoors and outdoors and some may even see better numbers indoors...

doctorSpoc said:

yep.. but the op of this thread is reaching out to others that DO find it more difficult to ride indoor on trainers and have managed to mitigate the difference

I think that's a leap. He found it difficult, yes. But, many find it initially difficult and after a period of adaptation they find it equivalent (as suggested by frenchyge). You're jumping ahead to the assumption that he finds it difficult even after a period of adaptation. If he finds it equivalent after a period of adaptation, there's nothing to mitigate. Shouldn't we wait until we know what the problem is (if there is in fact a problem) before we try to solve the problem?

RapDaddyo said:

I think that's a leap. He found it difficult, yes. But, many find it initially difficult and after a period of adaptation they find it equivalent (as suggested by frenchyge). You're jumping ahead to the assumption that he finds it difficult even after a period of adaptation. If he finds it equivalent after a period of adaptation, there's nothing to mitigate. Shouldn't we wait until we know what the problem is (if there is in fact a problem) before we try to solve the problem?

i'll say it again, if you read the thread you'll see why after a certain time it's perfectly understandable that you will addapt... just like you will addapt to any different exercise... but if you do find it difficult to transition from road to indoors and don't want to deal with a transition period... at least in the physical/physilogical realm it is possible (motivation is another issue and there are ways the mitigate this as well) and there are two major factors.. 1) cooling, cooling, cooling and 2) inertial loading (i.e. a heavy flywheel)... like is said i know this because i am on of those like the op that did have trouble with this but i have managed to mitigate the the difference so much that there is no transition i can do a ride indoor and outdoors with the same numbers with no transition where before it would take me months to transition...

doctorSpoc said:

i'll say it again, if you read the thread you'll see why after a certain time it's perfectly understandable that you will addapt... just like you will addapt to any different exercise... but if you do find it difficult to transition from road to indoors and don't want to deal with a transition period... at least in the physical/physilogical realm it is possible (motivation is another issue and there are ways the mitigate this as well) and there are two major factors.. 1) cooling, cooling, cooling and 2) inertial loading (i.e. a heavy flywheel)... like is said i know this because i am on of those like the op that did have trouble with this but i have managed to mitigate the the difference so much that there is no transition i can do a ride indoor and outdoors with the same numbers with no transition where before it would take me months to transition...

The cooling/ventilation issue is a no-brainer. If your body is having to work harder to stay cool, there's less energy available for the muscles doing the work. The inertial loading, momentum, pedaling style question seems to me to be an open debate. There's speculation and argument, yes, but I don't think there is a definitive conclusion as to the impact on the physiological stress of riding a high-intensity effort on a trainer. I think I could generate comparable numbers on just about any old trainer or ergo device and with the identical pedaling style I use outdoors (all the power is generated from 1-5 o'clock on the downstroke).

RapDaddyo said:

I think I could generate comparable numbers on just about any old trainer or ergo device and with the identical pedaling style I use outdoors (all the power is generated from 1-5 o'clock on the downstroke).

To me this is an important key to this enigma.

Whoawhoa, if you have a trainer that has adjustable resistance, reduce it and shift gears on your bike so you get the back wheel spinning as fast as possible. I find that 53-13 (which is the fastest combination on my bike at the moment) feels easier than let's say 53-21, at the same power.

doctorSpoc said:

i know this because i am on of those like the op that did have trouble with this but i have managed to mitigate the the difference so much that there is no transition i can do a ride indoor and outdoors with the same numbers with no transition where before it would take me months to transition...

Maybe it would make things more clear if you described what you did to *mitigate* the difference as opposed to "just keep riding and the problem goes away on it's own."

If the problem goes away on it's own, then the 'problem' is much like asking "I can't produce as much power in the aero position -- what gives?" Nothing really gives other than the fact that the rider is being forced to ride in a way that he's not comfortable with.

RapDaddyo said:

The cooling/ventilation issue is a no-brainer. If your body is having to work harder to stay cool, there's less energy available for the muscles doing the work. The inertial loading, momentum, pedaling style question seems to me to be an open debate. There's speculation and argument, yes, but I don't think there is a definitive conclusion as to the impact on the physiological stress of riding a high-intensity effort on a trainer. I think I could generate comparable numbers on just about any old trainer or ergo device and with the identical pedaling style I use outdoors (all the power is generated from 1-5 o'clock on the downstroke).

ok.. so cooling is settled.. proper cooling is essential

but like i said... yes.. YOU can.. with YOUR pedaling style.. that's the point. but there are a lot of individuals with THEIR pedaling style that can't.. i am one of those individuals.. so let's for a moment forget the reasons behind it or for it.. lets take the black box approach... and forget about trying to understanding it... i, as as an individual that does have problems with transitioning from indoors to outdoors but when i add add inertial load (fly wheel or using the method that SolarEnergy had just mentioned above) this mitigates the effect this is just a fact, the numbers don't lie.. this absolutely works. the fact that you can go indoor or outdoors and ride the same number without transition is a huge advantage... would you not agree that having no transitional period outdoors to indoors would be of great advantage to people with this problem? as well, part of the motivational problem is the number differential... so this helps in this department too..

so whoawhoa.. as RapDaddyo has said.. proper cooling IS a big deal, essential... but i have found as someone who has a problem with this transition, that if i add the element of inertial load (using a trainer with a heavy flywheel, using a big gear and less resistance etc) as well, your transition will be much easier and painless and you can bring all the numbers you have established outside, inside.. to me that's a huge advantage... Dr. Coggan mentioned here that he does the majority of his training on a velodyne trainer that has a huge 10kg (~20lbs) flywheel ... kurt kinetic has a big flywheel, kreitler rollers you can get extra flywheels for... or you a a minimum you can use the method SolarEnergy mentioned and put your the heaviest wheel/tires on the back that you can get your hands on all these things work... individuals that don't observer a transition can't tell you if these things work because they don't observer a trasition in the first place making these change are meaningless to them... anyway, try it, it works...

whoawhoa said:

So the other day I tried to see how holding my outdoor FTP felt on the trainer. And, contrary to what I thought would be true, it was hard! I held it for 10 minutes and quit. Maybe I could have gotten to 15 if I wanted to destroy myself....The catch here is, it was done in a 75 degree room with only a ceiling fan. Does anyone with lots of trainer experience think I'll be fine when I'm doing intervals this winter at more like 50 degrees?

I do all my 2x20s & 5x5s indoors on rollers, 75-80 degrees with a fan blowing.
Did all these since Jan 1st, twice a week, maybe 3 times every now & then.

The difference I found out is that on the trainer/resistance rollers the effort is "constant" no soft peadling a hair, no momentum, its contant for the full 20min, I can hold a constant power within 5watts (e.g 250-255) Try that on the road. the only other way I see getting costant wattage is on a climb.

On the road to find a 20min stretch thats perfectly flat is hard, not counting wind. If you download the road interval you will have a lot of little ups & downs with the watts, on the other hand a downloaded interval from the trainer will show a smoother wattage. I find the rollers harder, feels like Im riding with my brakes on but then when I get on the road man does the bike take off when you push down.

Example picture "A" is on the rollers "B" is on the road
AVE watts (yellow) are pretty close in both, time spent is only 4min difference, the point is look at the little ups & downs compared to each other the average watts are just about the same. Check out cadence too (green)

doctorSpoc said:

Dr. Coggan mentioned that he does the majority of his training on a velodyne trainer that has a huge 10kg (~20lbs) flywheel...

... but he also mentioned that he can produce the same power on his little trainer (Tacx Swing, or whatever he has).

doctorSpoc said:

kurt kinetic has a big flywheel,

Well, if you call 6 lbs big (for the Road Machine), but I think that's was the one WhoaWhoa uses already.

frenchyge said:

... but he also mentioned that he can produce the same power on his little trainer (Tacx Swing, or whatever he has).

Well, if you call 6 lbs big (for the Road Machine), but I think that's was the one WhoaWhoa uses already.

i condense my last post even further to get right to the meat of it...

for people that have a problem with the indoor-outdoor transition.. inertial loading works.. it just does... you can debate 'til the cows come home why or why not, but it works... that the bottom line... want no transition, inertial loading and cooling is your answer [period][full stop]

doctorSpoc said:

want no transition, inertial loading and cooling is your answer [period][full stop]

You can make your argument as forcefully as you want, put words in bold, whatever you want to do is fine with me. But, what if what is going on with WW is that he is experiencing a completely normal period of adaptation to riding his trainer. You would have him believe that he needs a new trainer or some "technique" to solve a problem that you haven't determined he has. Why not prescribe some medication while you're at it for some virus that he may not have as well?

doctorSpoc said:

i condense my last post even further to get right to the meat of it...

for people that have a problem with the indoor-outdoor transition.. inertial loading works.. it just does... you can debate 'til the cows come home why or why not, but it works... that the bottom line... want no transition, inertial loading and cooling is your answer [period][full stop]

My problem goes a bit beyond your 'full stop period', though I agree with what's before the 'period'.