Hitting max power

mickthomas said:

Hello,
I want to get my max power over 1 kw and I'm just a few watts shy of this. Typically what's the best training drill/scenario to do this i.e. low gear, big gear, hill sprint...?

Search for a thread, something along the lines of '1000w club' or 'kilo club,' can't remember which.
There's no real consensus, but some like standing starts in a small gear. Of course, you'll never win a sprint finish in a crit from a standing start in a small gear, but I don't think that's what you're asking.

Personally, I pay attention to my max watts in situations similar to those when it will matter, i.e. at the end of my workouts, sprinting from a decent speed, usually uphill since 90% of NorCal RR's finish this way. This doesn't mean I don't train my sprint (and see higher wattages) in other ways/ conditions. Typical sprint training seems to include both leg strength (standing starts) and leg speed (spinning gears out) components. I found an article at Cycle-Smart to be useful:
http://www.cycle-smart.com/Articles/find.php?search=24

And jeez, if this doesn't bring Warren out of the woodwork, I don't know what will. 😉 )

mickthomas said:

Hello,
I want to get my max power over 1 kw and I'm just a few watts shy of this. Typically what's the best training drill/scenario to do this i.e. low gear, big gear, hill sprint...?

Training: (once a week for at least a month): ride ~20min warmup (tempo), 2x slight uphill sprints (standing starts) 10-15sec followed by 3-4x sprints (flying starts) that you start on a slight down hill soft pedal down to get you up to ~35km/h painlessly on the down hill, then go as hard as you can for 15-20 sec... good if the road after the hill is very slightly up (i'm talking false flat here not really what you'd call uphill) full recover between sprints (~5min slow just keep the legs going around), ride home for cooldown (20min). plus, do a 2-3x flying starts on your endurance/group ride days 10s to town sign, telephone post or something.

max numbers - do tempo warmup as usual... do 1x the uphill sprint then 2-3 of the flying start sprints.. your fastest numbers will come from the flying start sprints... and likley be the 1st or 2nd flying start...

technique - hands in drops, well bent over... glutes/buttocks (the largest muscle in your body) will be activated only if you are bent over enough. body stays straight but bike gets thrown from side to side in coordination with you pedaling.. one of the most important things is to make sure you are consciously appyling torque to the pedal for as much of the pedal stroke as possible carrying though past the 4-5 o'clock. feels like you are on your toes and you are using your calves to finish off the stroke and starting the stroke over the top before 12 o'clock... really have to feel your way around...

riding in big, big gears during your recovery... REALLY slowly put breaks if necessary, standing up and seated and feeling your way around the stroke as comfortably as possible can get you to realize what your pedal stroke should feel like... just slows things down so you can get a feel for what you are doing, then you can think about this and try to recreate that during the sprint... again, not hard at all, this is just to get a feel for the stoke and shouldn't strain your muscles even a little bit... imagine your pedal are made of glass and you are turning them over so you won't break them but you want to be applying torque all the way arround the stroke...

mickthomas said:

I want to get my max power over 1 kw and I'm just a few watts shy of this. Typically what's the best training drill/scenario to do this i.e. low gear, big gear, hill sprint...?

What scenario currently gets you within a few watts of 1kW?

For me, a hard jump from a slow speed rolling start produces my highest peaks. By extension, that probably means going hard from a standing start or stop sign might be even better.

frenchyge said:

What scenario currently gets you within a few watts of 1kW?

For me, a hard jump from a slow speed rolling start produces my highest peaks. By extension, that probably means going hard from a standing start or stop sign might be even better.

up to last month i was the same, but after training for flying starts more consistantly for a couple of months and working on pedaling technique/higher cadence etc, my highest max power sprints are now for flying starts... 100W more than i was doing for the standing starts 1200W vs 1100W.. not bad for a 56kg fly weight... 🙂

but not only that... getting you flying starts prefected is probably better just from a practical point of view since in a race or even on the weekend town sign sprint point of view this is how the sprint will go down.

also to the OP, do your sprints when you are completely fresh like after a day off or in the morning if you are doing a double ride that day or and at the begining of your workout.. if you are tired you won't be able to do your sprints properly, motivation will be low, technique will be sloppy etc.. you DON'T want to be engraining sloppy technique into your sprinting... genetics counts for a lot too, but if you want to get to YOUR potential for sprinting technique counts for a whole lot... when you are in a real sprint situation you won't even be thinking about it you'll just do what you did in pratice and you'll know exactly how it feels to get all the power you can to the road because it's engrained from your training

Your question has two parts in my mind. Part I is how to improve your sprint power (i.e., L7 power). Part II is how to realize your peak power. These may sound like the same thing, but they really aren't.

I think the answer to Part I is basically any maximum effort of 5-20 seconds. These can be standing start, uphill, upwind, on the flat, basically anything except downhill. It helps to do them on a slight upgrade or upwind because the added resistance prevents you from spinning out too fast. If you don't have any resistance, you will tend to spin right through your optimal torque range too quickly. If you have some resistance, you will move through your optimal torque range more gradually. These are best done well rested and with ~5mins between efforts (although I sometimes do 4-5 of them with as little as 1min between efforts). The purpose of these efforts is neuromuscular adaptation. You can include these efforts several times a week (e.g., 3-4) because they are short, intense and don't really raise your training stress very much.

I think the answer to Part II is a set of max power tests. The purpose of the tests is to determine at what cadence you generate your max power. I would pick a slight upgrade section of road and to approach the sprint segment in different gears such that you start the sprint at different cadences. If I were doing the tests, I would approach the sprint segment at cadences ranging from 60 to 120. I have done such tests and I know that I generate my max torque at ~125rpm. So, if I start my sprint at 60-90rpm there's no way I'm going to generate my peak power. You can also experiment with your technique both on and off the saddle with these tests. The question is, at what cadence and in what position do you generate your max power? I don't think there is a universal answer to these questions for everybody.

just one more note of caution.. if you are interested in actually sprinting faster and not just your max number then you need to also concentrate on ending your sprints strongly... as in being able to hold your speed and/or have your speed diminish less than others around you.. holding your composure, relaxing, holding your composure sitting down and spinning and applying lots of torque seated... you can spin much faster seated than standing and you can only apply so much torque to the pedal so you can get greater power by compensating with leg speed... so you need to finish your sprint properly as well if your goal is to actually be a better sprinter.. concentrating too much on max power puts too much emphasis on the acceleration portion of the sprint and not enough on the ending part of the sprint with can ofter be where the sprint is lost or won.. that's why flying start sprints are up to 20sec and why it's good to do sprints in group rides.. you learn how to hold your composure and technique at the end of the sprint... very important...

[edit] i think you'll find if you look at any picture of the winner of a flat sprint in any major race you'll find that the final portion allway ends seated... impoving this portion of the sprint is essential if you actually want to improve your sprint and not just your power numbers for 5,10,15,20 secs or whatever and why some would say that 10,15 or even 20sec power is more important to look at than say maxPower or 5s power... when you are concentrating on max numbers you'll probably be concentrating on the standing portion of the sprint too much... but it's kinda cool to see just how much power you can lay down on the road though...🙂

RapDaddyo said:

I have done such tests and I know that I generate my max torque at ~125rpm. So, if I start my sprint at 60-90rpm there's no way I'm going to generate my peak power...

think this is why a downhill followed by a false flat is your best bet...

on an uphill standing start type sprint.. by definition you start at a cadence of 0 and need to accelerate up to your optimum cadence, but if you get up to speed by going down hill soft pedaling then you sprint as the bottom of the hill as the false flat begins you can sprint at your optimum cadence from begining to end at your optimum cadence... and no effort winding up the gear.. you need to choose the proper gear but no energy is wasted as you wind up the gear from 0 to the optimum cadence.. the slight uphill providing the resistance for you to apply torque as you begin your sprint at the bottom of the decent... any way it works for me... someone else on the board actually suggested and i tried it and it worked... so i'm passing it along...

mickthomas said:

Hello,
I want to get my max power over 1 kw and I'm just a few watts shy of this. Typically what's the best training drill/scenario to do this i.e. low gear, big gear, hill sprint...?

What power meter are you using? If it's a Polar, you're most likely already over 1 kW peak power 🙄

doctorSpoc said:

think this is why a downhill followed by a false flat is your best bet...

on an uphill standing start type sprint.. by definition you start at a cadence of 0 and need to accelerate up to your optimum cadence, but if you get up to speed by going down hill soft pedaling then you sprint as the bottom of the hill as the false flat begins you can sprint at your optimum cadence from begining to end at your optimum cadence... and no effort winding up the gear.. you need to choose the proper gear but no energy is wasted as you wind up the gear from 0 to the optimum cadence.. the slight uphill providing the resistance for you to apply torque as you begin your sprint at the bottom of the decent... any way it works for me... someone else on the board actually suggested and i tried it and it worked... so i'm passing it along...

I've noticed that I tend to hit my highest power 950+ when cycling downhill and starting the sprint as the road levels and starts to rise up. Your explanation is very insightful and I'll probably explore some sprint variations. I've only started using a powerTap for sprinting training so I'm still very much on a learning curve as to what works best - at this stage I just want to see 4 digits on the watts display 🙂

I did two halfhearted sprints on my way home from an easy ride today. Both times I was rolling along at maybe 15mph or less on a flat as it just started uphill ever so slightly. My Powertap showed 980 the first time and I chose too big of a gear and had no snap off the start and bagged the sprint after 3 or 4 seconds. My second one I used a smaller gear and got up to 120+ rpm after I sat down and it showed 1040 watts.

I was under the impression you needed 1400 watts to have an effective sprint or be able to bridge quickly, but i am pretty green on this PT and only about 600 miles in this year. I got all the cool toys though.

I cannot wait to do speed work and intervals with the guidnace of a coach as I have never been a fast sprinter!!

Thanks for this thread!!

Ray

rayhuang said:

I did two halfhearted sprints on my way home from an easy ride today. Both times I was rolling along at maybe 15mph or less on a flat as it just started uphill ever so slightly. My Powertap showed 980 the first time and I chose too big of a gear and had no snap off the start and bagged the sprint after 3 or 4 seconds. My second one I used a smaller gear and got up to 120+ rpm after I sat down and it showed 1040 watts.

I was under the impression you needed 1400 watts to have an effective sprint or be able to bridge quickly, but i am pretty green on this PT and only about 600 miles in this year. I got all the cool toys though.

I cannot wait to do speed work and intervals with the guidnace of a coach as I have never been a fast sprinter!!

Thanks for this thread!!

Ray

A suggestion: include some weightlifting workouts (i.e. single leg presses, squats, etc). Think in terms of explosive power and you should be able to transfer that kind of power into your sprinting capabilities.

Ignore your 1400 watts thing.

If I had 700 watts for 4 minutes, I could bridge to anything. I would also bridge to the finish line first!

nrhorwitz said:

A suggestion: include some weightlifting workouts (i.e. single leg presses, squats, etc). Think in terms of explosive power and you should be able to transfer that kind of power into your sprinting capabilities.

Explosive Power: Standing starts (seated).

Want to ride a bicycle fast? Train riding a bicycle fast.

nrhorwitz said:

A suggestion: include some weightlifting workouts (i.e. single leg presses, squats, etc). Think in terms of explosive power and you should be able to transfer that kind of power into your sprinting capabilities.

Ive seen 800 watts up short hills, but only for a few seconds and only about 380 to 400+ watts for 3 or 4 minutes, but again I am not doing any power or speed work yet. I hope all those numbers im[rove with specific training.

Weights are definately in my plan for this winter-that and Yoga.

rayhuang said:

Ive seen 800 watts up short hills, but only for a few seconds and only about 380 to 400+ watts for 3 or 4 minutes, but again I am not doing any power or speed work yet. I hope all those numbers im[rove with specific training.

Weights are definately in my plan for this winter-that and Yoga.

Sorry if you've been exposed to the anti-weight view on this forum before, but I would definitely discourage you. It's likely to *decrease* aerobic abilities. Sprinting is much better trained on the bike. Besides, sprinting is only 50% about power output over 5-10 seconds anyway. I've placed (yet to win) in field sprints in the 3's with a 5 second power that's barely cat 3 worthy (and a 1 minute power even lower). Obviously not up to par with my results in races that suit me better, but I can still get by with some fitness and technical skill.

mickthomas said:

Hello,
I want to get my max power over 1 kw and I'm just a few watts shy of this. Typically what's the best training drill/scenario to do this i.e. low gear, big gear, hill sprint...?

I started the 'other' (kilowatt club)thread having been in a similar situation to you.
I made the improvement by doing 2-3 hour L2/3 rides with 10 second out-of-the-saddle-sprints(800-900w) every 10-15 minutes throughout the ride. It was also important not to drop below middle to high L2 following each sprint. I did 2-3 of these sessions, and following good recovery, I was out one day and thought I would see how my 5 second power was, and BANG! It was like a plane breaking the sound barrier, but the equivalent on a bicycle - honest🙄.
To be serious though, the above session should help.

well-up to 1100 watts tonight-this time after a 2 hour training ride. I found starting in a lower gear/higher rpm and sitting down sooner and spinning out the gear as best i could lead to the better power figure.

This is not really part of my training regimen-I can see a max and 5 second power addiction starting!! DARN YOU GUYS 😠 :p

rayhuang said:

well-up to 1100 watts tonight-this time after a 2 hour training ride. I found starting in a lower gear/higher rpm and sitting down sooner and spinning out the gear as best i could lead to the better power figure.

A standing start on a slight upgrade will probably bump it a little as well. Anyway, think of it as specificity. All my sprints are standing starts on slight upgrades, aren't yours?😄

RapDaddyo said:

A standing start on a slight upgrade will probably bump it a little as well. Anyway, think of it as specificity. All my sprints are standing starts on slight upgrades, aren't yours?😄

I am a pathetic sprinter (even in the 80's when I was pretty fast) and pretty out of shape at this point so a standing start wouldnt be very impressive.. I think a standing start sprint would only yield me maybe 800 watts. I see that figure in my PT after regular rides and have always assumed those were taking off from a light or stop sign.