question about radial spoke pattern

In article <[email hidden]>,

greggery peccary' .@. said:

my 700c front wheel has a regular radial pattern (the spokes don't cross).
the guy at the LBS said it would be stronger if the spokes were crossed.
it's a 32 spoke wheel, can i do this on the same wheel?

Read up this favourite r.b.* reference.

http://sheldonbrown.com/wheelbuild.html
--

greggery peccary said:

my 700c front wheel has a regular radial pattern (the spokes don't cross).
the guy at the LBS said it would be stronger if the spokes were crossed.
it's a 32 spoke wheel, can i do this on the same wheel?

Well, there is a concern about the grooves that appear on the hub flange,
and the slight deformation of the spoke hole. The idea is, if you
re-build a hub with a different lacing, then you double up on these
grooves and deformations, weakening the wheel. This is, in my
experience, not a concern if you start out with a good hub (Campy or
Shimano).

On the other hand, most hub makers will simply refuse to warrantee a hub
that has been laced radial.

On the third hand, your guy at the LBS is mistaken. Radially-laced front
wheels are not weaker in any real sense than crossed ones. Rear hubs,
yes, cannot be radial (at least not both sides), because of the torsion on
the hub. But a front wheel, unless you have disk brakes, has no torsion
on the hub.

Radial lacing is just a fashion statement, neither helpful nor hurtful to
the strength of the wheel.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | I believe that the motion picture is destined to revolutionize
_`\(,_ | our educational system and that in a few years it will supplant
(_)/ (_) | largely, if not entirely, the use of textbooks -- Thomas
Edison, 1922

If the hub will allow the spokes to be at an angle, yes.

- -
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Group: rec.bicycles.misc
Date: Sun, Sep 10, 2006, 6:44pm (EDT-1)
From: [email hidden] (David L. Johnson)

Quoted message said:

On the third hand, your guy at the LBS is
mistaken. Radially-laced front wheels
are not weaker in any real sense than
crossed ones. Rear hubs, yes, cannot be
radial (at least not both sides), because
of the torsion on the hub. But a front
wheel, unless you have disk brakes, has
no torsion on the hub.
--
David L. Johnson

These forces do occur on the front hub as well, when braking. And the
front wheel does bear most of those.

- -
Comments and opinions compliments of,
"Your Friendly Neighborhood Wheelman"

My web Site:
http://geocities.com/czcorner

To E-mail me:
ChrisZCorner "at" webtv "dot" net

greggery peccary .@. said:

my 700c front wheel has a regular radial pattern (the spokes don't cross).
the guy at the LBS said it would be stronger if the spokes were crossed.
it's a 32 spoke wheel, can i do this on the same wheel?

I wouldn't bother personally. Unless there is some problem that is
causing you to need a stronger wheel? I consider 32 front pretty
strong, and I eat weak wheels for breakfast. [1]

David already mentioned all the technical reasons I would have run
through as to why to do this or not. If you really wanted to, one might
see if you could find the same front hub and reuse everything else.
Really though, front wheels are cheap enough, it's probably best just to
spec another and keep this as a spare.

Also, which LBS?

[1] A little butter, a little molasses, fit for a king!

--
Dane Buson - [email hidden]
"Scriptures....The sacred books of our holy religion, as
distinguished from the false and profane writings on which
all other faiths are based." -Ambrose Bierce

In article <[email hidden]>,

David L. Johnson said:

greggery peccary said:

my 700c front wheel has a regular radial pattern (the spokes don't cross).
the guy at the LBS said it would be stronger if the spokes were crossed.
it's a 32 spoke wheel, can i do this on the same wheel?

Well, there is a concern about the grooves that appear on the hub flange,
and the slight deformation of the spoke hole. The idea is, if you
re-build a hub with a different lacing, then you double up on these
grooves and deformations, weakening the wheel. This is, in my
experience, not a concern if you start out with a good hub (Campy or
Shimano).

On the other hand, most hub makers will simply refuse to warrantee a hub
that has been laced radial.

On the third hand, your guy at the LBS is mistaken. Radially-laced front
wheels are not weaker in any real sense than crossed ones. Rear hubs,
yes, cannot be radial (at least not both sides), because of the torsion on
the hub. But a front wheel, unless you have disk brakes, has no torsion
on the hub.

Radial lacing is just a fashion statement, neither helpful nor hurtful to
the strength of the wheel.

I read elsewhere radial front wheels give a harsher ride. Is this true?
And is it relevant in practice?
--

Chris Z The Wheelman said:

These forces do occur on the front hub as well, when braking. And the
front wheel does bear most of those.

Help me to understand that one... The rear hub has torque applied, so
that certainly makes sense. But braking forces are applied at the rim
(assuming rim brakes). So forces are applied at the brake and at the
contact point, with the hub pushing forward. I don't see where the
torque comes from: If I'm visualizing this correctly, there is just a
change in the radial forces with a horizontal component added to the
normal vertical component. I don't see where torque on the front hub
comes from, or how it could be applied given that the hub isn't
constrained.

Giles

"Dane Buson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

greggery peccary .@. said:

my 700c front wheel has a regular radial pattern (the spokes don't

cross).

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the guy at the LBS said it would be stronger if the spokes were crossed.
it's a 32 spoke wheel, can i do this on the same wheel?

I wouldn't bother personally. Unless there is some problem that is
causing you to need a stronger wheel? I consider 32 front pretty
strong, and I eat weak wheels for breakfast. [1]

David already mentioned all the technical reasons I would have run
through as to why to do this or not. If you really wanted to, one might
see if you could find the same front hub and reuse everything else.
Really though, front wheels are cheap enough, it's probably best just to
spec another and keep this as a spare.

Also, which LBS?

[1] A little butter, a little molasses, fit for a king!

--

thanks for the info. i have been losing spokes in the front. maybe it just
needs a rebuild with double butted ones. free-range cycles in seattle. a
nice little shop that helps me from time to time.

greggery peccary .@. said:

thanks for the info. i have been losing spokes in the front. maybe it
just needs a rebuild with double butted ones. free-range cycles in
seattle. a nice little shop that helps me from time to time.

Free range cycles is a pretty good shop from what I hear. They're not
in my neighborhood, so I can't give an opinion as to their wheel
building expertise or lack thereof. I haven't heard anything *bad*,
which is a good thing.

If you're doing a rebuild DB spokes probably aren't a bad idea. And
they won't add much cost to the process. On the other hand, unless
you're doing it yourself or getting the labor for free, it's probably
not cost effective. At $30 for spokes + $45 for a build, that's $75 to
rebuild that wheel at least.

Example: http://www.nashbar.com/profile.cfm?sku=6239

$40 + $10 shipping for a 36 spoke 3 cross wheel. Yes, it's not fancy,
and you'd probably have to bump the tension on it. But it would get you
a spare front wheel and you could then redo the other front wheel on
your own. I'm betting that if you retensioned it (even with the same
spokes and no re-lacing), it would probably be better behaved.

--
Dane Buson - [email hidden]
It typically takes 25-30 gallons of petrol/diesel to fully-consume an
average-sized body under ideal conditions. That I am conversant with
this level of detail should serve as an indication of why the wise man
does not ask me questions about MS-Windows. --Tanuki the Raccoon-dog

To answer Giles question, I sould have added that this would apply only
to bikes with front disc brakes, because the braking foirces which are
at the hub must be transferred through the spokes to the rim and tire.
Obviously wheels with rim brakes would not experiance this.

Sorry about that.

- -
Comments and opinions compliments of,
"Your Friendly Neighborhood Wheelman"

My web Site:
http://geocities.com/czcorner

To E-mail me:
ChrisZCorner "at" webtv "dot" net