bikes on ice

nash said:

http://www.digave.com/videos/#
Posted 2/04
In a rare chain of weather patterns the Charles River froze over to
form a perfect surface for raging around on bikes - watch us speed down
this frozen river in the middle of the city

I have ice skated on frozen rivers near Chicago, great for in line
speed, but how do you keep a bike upright? Just plain lucky.
I have seen motorcycle races on ice but the tires have big steel spikes
to dig in.
Bill Baka

Bill Baka said:

Quoted message said:

I have ice skated on frozen rivers near Chicago, great for in line
speed, but how do you keep a bike upright? Just plain lucky.
I have seen motorcycle races on ice but the tires have big steel spikes
to dig in.
Bill Baka

Nokian (Finnish tire maker) makes a line of studded tires in various 26"
and 700C sizes. There are a few cheaper studded bicycle tires on the
market, too.
mark

Mark Felber said:

Quoted message said:

I have ice skated on frozen rivers near Chicago, great for in line
speed, but how do you keep a bike upright? Just plain lucky. I
have seen motorcycle races on ice but the tires have big steel
spikes to dig in.

Quoted message said:

Nokian (Finnish tire maker) makes a line of studded tires in various
26" and 700C sizes. There are a few cheaper studded bicycle tires on
the market, too.

If it's cold, you don't need no steenkin studs:

http://www.trentobike.org/Countries/Switzerland/Tour_Reports/Ice_Princess_1963/

Jobst Brandt

Quoted message said:

Mark Felber said:

Quoted message said:

I have ice skated on frozen rivers near Chicago, great for in line
speed, but how do you keep a bike upright? Just plain lucky. I
have seen motorcycle races on ice but the tires have big steel
spikes to dig in.

Quoted message said:

Nokian (Finnish tire maker) makes a line of studded tires in various
26" and 700C sizes. There are a few cheaper studded bicycle tires on
the market, too.

If it's cold, you don't need no steenkin studs:

http://www.trentobike.org/Countries/Switzerland/Tour_Reports/Ice_Princess_1963/

Jobst Brandt

Nice story and pics, Jobst, thanks for sharing them.

Smokey

Smokey said:

Quoted message said:

Mark Felber said:

> I have ice skated on frozen rivers near Chicago, great for in line
> speed, but how do you keep a bike upright? Just plain lucky. I
> have seen motorcycle races on ice but the tires have big steel
> spikes to dig in.

Quoted message said:

Nokian (Finnish tire maker) makes a line of studded tires in various
26" and 700C sizes. There are a few cheaper studded bicycle tires on
the market, too.

If it's cold, you don't need no steenkin studs:

http://www.trentobike.org/Countries/Switzerland/Tour_Reports/Ice_Princess_1963/

Jobst Brandt

Nice story and pics, Jobst, thanks for sharing them.

Smokey

"Smokey" is an appropriate name, as ol' JB has /flamed/ others for posting
ride reports in here.

Bill "couldn't resist" S.

"nash" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

http://www.digave.com/videos/#
Posted 2/04
In a rare chain of weather patterns the Charles River froze over to
form a perfect surface for raging around on bikes - watch us speed down
this frozen river in the middle of the city

Most of Lucas Brunelle's videos are vicarious experience for me (drag race
through Manhattan traffic? No thanks!). But I've done similar stuff to this
on local ponds, the Skokie lagoons and a bit of the Chicago River and it is
just as much fun as the video makes it out to be.

With Nokian studded tires, there's plenty of traction on ice -- more than on
snow, where you have to depend on the knobbies unless the studs dig down to
the ice. Without studs, it's more of a challenge and can be a bit of a
bruiser, but still fun -- as Jobst's story indicates.

--
Mike Kruger
Blog: http://journals.aol.com/mikekr/ZbicyclistsZlog/

In article <[email hidden]>,

Mike Kruger said:

Most of Lucas Brunelle's videos are vicarious experience for me (drag race
through Manhattan traffic? No thanks!).

It's a lesson for children on how not to ride their bikes. They way they
use the road, I would say it's rather damaging to the cycling community
as a whole.
--

Bill Baka said:

nash said:

http://www.digave.com/videos/#
Posted 2/04
In a rare chain of weather patterns the Charles River froze over to
form a perfect surface for raging around on bikes - watch us speed down
this frozen river in the middle of the city

I have ice skated on frozen rivers near Chicago, great for in line
speed, but how do you keep a bike upright? Just plain lucky.

It is not that hard, althought a very newly frozen lake may be
slippery. If you're on bare ice just don't make any sudden sharp turns
🙂. In extremely slippery conditions don't dismount. I once found that
I could ride quite comfortably but when I stopped to take a picture I
could not remount because I could not get enough weight on the rear
wheel to get a grip on the ice. In this last instance I was using
studded tires.

Studded tires are a definate help but not a real neccessity. In fact,
the studded tires are more useful for street riding , I've had very
good luck with Nokia
John Kane, Kingston ON Canada

John Kane said:

Bill Baka said:

nash said:

http://www.digave.com/videos/#
Posted 2/04
In a rare chain of weather patterns the Charles River froze over to
form a perfect surface for raging around on bikes - watch us speed down
this frozen river in the middle of the city

I have ice skated on frozen rivers near Chicago, great for in line
speed, but how do you keep a bike upright? Just plain lucky.

It is not that hard, althought a very newly frozen lake may be
slippery. If you're on bare ice just don't make any sudden sharp turns
🙂. In extremely slippery conditions don't dismount. I once found that
I could ride quite comfortably but when I stopped to take a picture I
could not remount because I could not get enough weight on the rear
wheel to get a grip on the ice. In this last instance I was using
studded tires.

Studded tires are a definate help but not a real neccessity. In fact,
the studded tires are more useful for street riding , I've had very
good luck with Nokia
John Kane, Kingston ON Canada

In retrospect, I am glad I didn't skate over a thin patch. Same for
biking unless you had a really hard freeze. Either of us could have gone
through the ice and nobody would ever know where we went. I think the
buddy system applies here, or should. Or course a week with highs in the
teens and low in the -teens (F, not C)makes for some thick ice.
Find your fun where you can.
Bill Baka

Bill Baka said:

John Kane said:

Bill Baka said:

nash wrote:
> http://www.digave.com/videos/#
> Posted 2/04
> In a rare chain of weather patterns the Charles River froze over to
> form a perfect surface for raging around on bikes - watch us speed down
> this frozen river in the middle of the city
>
I have ice skated on frozen rivers near Chicago, great for in line
speed, but how do you keep a bike upright? Just plain lucky.

It is not that hard, althought a very newly frozen lake may be
slippery. If you're on bare ice just don't make any sudden sharp turns
🙂. In extremely slippery conditions don't dismount. I once found that
I could ride quite comfortably but when I stopped to take a picture I
could not remount because I could not get enough weight on the rear
wheel to get a grip on the ice. In this last instance I was using
studded tires.

Studded tires are a definate help but not a real neccessity. In fact,
the studded tires are more useful for street riding , I've had very
good luck with Nokia
John Kane, Kingston ON Canada

In retrospect, I am glad I didn't skate over a thin patch. Same for
biking unless you had a really hard freeze.

I never even thought of this. I just expect people to know their ice. I
grew up where we routinely would drive to town on the lake, drive the
team of horses on it, skate on it , play a German version of curling
an ex-German introduced, etc.

I probably knew by age 6 what was safe ice. Rule: First time on ice
carry and use an axe. Also I would not do this on a body of water
where I did not know the currents, etc.

Quoted message said:

Either of us could have gone
through the ice and nobody would ever know where we went. I think the
buddy system applies here, or should. Or course a week with highs in the
teens and low in the -teens (F, not C)makes for some thick ice.

Yes indeed.

Well I am quite happy with about 5-6 cm for walking or cycling but want
perhaps 30 cm for a car. We, before global warming anyway, routinely
get 60-80 cm of ice

John Kane said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> In a rare chain of weather patterns the Charles River froze over
>> to form a perfect surface for raging around on bikes - watch us
>> speed down this frozen river in the middle of the city

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> I have ice skated on frozen rivers near Chicago, great for in
> line speed, but how do you keep a bike upright? Just plain
> lucky.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

It is not that hard, although a very newly frozen lake may be
slippery. If you're on bare ice just don't make any sudden sharp
turns 🙂. In extremely slippery conditions don't dismount. I
once found that I could ride quite comfortably but when I stopped
to take a picture I could not remount because I could not get
enough weight on the rear wheel to get a grip on the ice. In this
last instance I was using studded tires.

From that I take it you don't start astride of the bicycle. Starting
on the slickest ice is no problem if you are over the bicycle and have
one foot on the pedal. The problem usually arises because riders have
no idea what gear to use.

What gear do you use?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Studded tires are a definite help but not a real necessity. In
fact, the studded tires are more useful for street riding, I've
had very good luck with Nokia John Kane, Kingston ON Canada

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

In retrospect, I am glad I didn't skate over a thin patch. Same for
biking unless you had a really hard freeze.

Quoted message said:

I never even thought of this. I just expect people to know their
ice. I grew up where we routinely would drive to town on the lake,
drive the team of horses on it, skate on it, play a German version
of curling an ex-German introduced, etc.

What do you mean by "know their ice"? With a heavy freeze and ice
plenty thick, thin spots develop wherever there is gas rising from the
lake bottom, or there is current from an incoming stream. Areas of
lakes with a reedy end are highly suspect because the reeds decompose
under water and release CO2 that bubbles to the surface.

I suppose you know that frozen lakes are at 4°C under the surface and
that any current caused y bubbling brings this water in contact with
the ice or a void under the ice. That is dangerous ice.

Quoted message said:

I probably knew by age 6 what was safe ice. Rule: First time on ice
carry and use an axe. Also I would not do this on a body of water
where I did not know the currents, etc.

What do you do with the axe to assure that ice has no weak spots? The
only proper rescue device, whether alone or with another person is a
ladder. That is the best and lightest device for pulling a person out
of a breakthrough.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Either of us could have gone through the ice and nobody would ever
know where we went. I think the buddy system applies here, or
should. Or course a week with highs in the teens and low in the
-teens (F, not C)makes for some thick ice.

That's a historical condition. The temperature right now, if below
freezing, only assures that the ice that is there is solid. Thick ice
can break up even when more than 20cm if it gets warm. In contrast
10cm ice can be more than strong enough for a crowd if below freezing.

Quoted message said:

Yes indeed.

Quoted message said:

Well I am quite happy with about 5-6 cm for walking or cycling but
want perhaps 30 cm for a car. We, before global warming anyway,
routinely get 60-80 cm of ice

That can still have thin spots. Beware of marshes at the end of the
lake.

Jobst Brandt

Quoted message said:

John Kane said:

Quoted message said:

>>> In a rare chain of weather patterns the Charles River froze over
>>> to form a perfect surface for raging around on bikes - watch us
>>> speed down this frozen river in the middle of the city

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> I have ice skated on frozen rivers near Chicago, great for in
>> line speed, but how do you keep a bike upright? Just plain
>> lucky.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> It is not that hard, although a very newly frozen lake may be
> slippery. If you're on bare ice just don't make any sudden sharp
> turns 🙂. In extremely slippery conditions don't dismount. I
> once found that I could ride quite comfortably but when I stopped
> to take a picture I could not remount because I could not get
> enough weight on the rear wheel to get a grip on the ice. In this
> last instance I was using studded tires.

From that I take it you don't start astride of the bicycle. Starting
on the slickest ice is no problem if you are over the bicycle and have
one foot on the pedal. The problem usually arises because riders have
no idea what gear to use.

No. I was astride. The problem was that my saddle height was slightly
higher than my leg length. There was no way (without lowering the
saddle and I didn't have an allen key with me) that I could sit on the
saddle and make the initial push-off. With the force on the pedels and
no weight on the rear wheel I could not get any traction. (In this
case most of the traction probably came from the Nokia studs,not just
the tire contact)
Once I got some weight on the back wheel (achieved by finding a small
snow patch as a push-off point) I was fine.

Quoted message said:

What gear do you use?

On ice ? I have no real idea. Probably something in the mid-range of
a low geared MTB in this case. I was just poking along. In roughly 20
km on ice gthat day I would doubt that I ever hit over 20 km/hr

Quoted message said:

What do you mean by "know their ice"? With a heavy freeze and ice
plenty thick, thin spots develop wherever there is gas rising from the
lake bottom, or there is current from an incoming stream. Areas of
lakes with a reedy end are highly suspect because the reeds decompose
under water and release CO2 that bubbles to the surface.

Exactly. 🙂 After 2 or 3 generations one learns all of this by
personal experience and experience of the ancestors. I didn't say one
learned it quickly (and my lake is fairly simple compared to some ice
surfaces).

Quoted message said:

I suppose you know that frozen lakes are at 4°C under the surface and
that any current caused y bubbling brings this water in contact with
the ice or a void under the ice. That is dangerous ice.

I didn't know about the temperature but re dangerous ice, whatever the
cause, most definately. We lose a few (usually urban) snowmobilers and
the occasional cross-country skier every year to lack of ice knowledge.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I probably knew by age 6 what was safe ice. Rule: First time on ice
carry and use an axe. Also I would not do this on a body of water
where I did not know the currents, etc.

What do you do with the axe to assure that ice has no weak spots?

Know your ice!

A: Learn local ice lore.
B: Chop holes whenever dubious. I have chopped holes every 30 m for
half a kilometre in some cases.

A + B usually works.

Some areas are safe with a general 5-6 cm freeze , some are never safe,
some may be depending on the progression of the freeze. After about 3
generations you have a good idea of what to expect. I would be
extremely paranoid if I had to go onto ice I did not know without an
expert guide.

Quoted message said:

The only proper rescue device, whether alone or with another person is a
ladder. That is the best and lightest device for pulling a person out
of a breakthrough.

Very true but where I live we hope not to have a breakthrough. We
almost lost grandma back about 1902 but my grandfather was still
learning the ice as he had just moved to the current location. I heard
that if grandma had not been wearing the fur coat, grandfather figured
he could have save grandma and the horse!

Pressure cracks on a lake are very dangerous if you don't anticipate
them.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Either of us could have gone through the ice and nobody would ever
know where we went. I think the buddy system applies here, or
should. Or course a week with highs in the teens and low in the
-teens (F, not C)makes for some thick ice.

That's a historical condition. The temperature right now, if below
freezing, only assures that the ice that is there is solid. Thick ice
can break up even when more than 20cm if it gets warm. In contrast
10cm ice can be more than strong enough for a crowd if below freezing.

I have not seen that but it may be dependent on conditions that I am
not familiar with.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Yes indeed.

Quoted message said:

Well I am quite happy with about 5-6 cm for walking or cycling but
want perhaps 30 cm for a car. We, before global warming anyway,
routinely get 60-80 cm of ice

That can still have thin spots. Beware of marshes at the end of the
lake.

Marshes? I would not even go near a spring. 🙂 I am sure some idiots
would though. As I say, we lose a few snowmobilers and skiers every
year to utterly stupid moves.

John Kane said:

Marshes? I would not even go near a spring. 🙂 I am sure some idiots
would though. As I say, we lose a few snowmobilers and skiers every
year to utterly stupid moves.

I have to reply to that. Cars on ice. My mother used to live in the high
Mojave desert in the 70's, thinking that since it was a desert it would
be good for her arthritis. The real estate agent never told her how cold
it gets up there in the winter. I went to visit her around Christmas and
while driving around I found a frozen over dry lake about 5 miles in
diameter. This was near Victorville / Apple Valley where Roy Rodgers had
his museum. I don't know what the name of the dry lake was but it had
gotten about 2 inches of water that promptly froze over and when I found
it I decided to try driving on it. I got up to 42 MPH and no more after
about a mile of careful acceleration, then the rear tires started
slipping. Turning the wheel to the left, nothing happened, at first.
Then the car started angling left, but we were still going straight. We
went all the way around and came out of it still doing about 35 MPH.
Needless to say it was a blast, and probably something I will never get
lucky enough to so again.
When opportunity for fun knocks, I'm there.
Bill Baka

aka Jobst Brandt said:

...
What do you do with the axe to assure that ice has no weak spots? The
only proper rescue device, whether alone or with another person is a
ladder. That is the best and lightest device for pulling a person out
of a breakthrough.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Either of us could have gone through the ice and nobody would ever
know where we went. I think the buddy system applies here, or
should. Or course a week with highs in the teens and low in the
-teens (F, not C)makes for some thick ice.

That's a historical condition. The temperature right now, if below
freezing, only assures that the ice that is there is solid. Thick ice
can break up even when more than 20cm if it gets warm. In contrast
10cm ice can be more than strong enough for a crowd if below freezing.

Quoted message said:

Yes indeed.

Quoted message said:

Well I am quite happy with about 5-6 cm for walking or cycling but
want perhaps 30 cm for a car. We, before global warming anyway,
routinely get 60-80 cm of ice

That can still have thin spots. Beware of marshes at the end of the
lake.

See also <http://www.crrel.usace.army.mil/ierd/tectran/ieieb13.htm>.

I personally would want to be wearing a flotation device and a wetsuit,
as the chances of survival of falling through the ice are not good if
help is not immediately available, since a person wearing normal
clothing (and with a normal range of body fat) will typically have less
than one minute before they become too numb from the cold to have
useful muscle activity.

This paper recommends "ice claws" as a way to pull one's self out:
<http://ohioline.osu.edu/aex-fact/pdf/0392.pdf#search=%22corps%20engineers%20ice%20safety%22>.

--
Tom Sherman - Behind the Cheddar Curtain

John Kane said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>>>> In a rare chain of weather patterns the Charles River froze
>>>> over to form a perfect surface for raging around on bikes -
>>>> watch us speed down this frozen river in the middle of the
>>>> city

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>>> I have ice skated on frozen rivers near Chicago, great for in
>>> line speed, but how do you keep a bike upright? Just plain
>>> lucky.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> It is not that hard, although a very newly frozen lake may be
>> slippery. If you're on bare ice just don't make any sudden
>> sharp turns 🙂. In extremely slippery conditions don't
>> dismount. I once found that I could ride quite comfortably but
>> when I stopped to take a picture I could not remount because I
>> could not get enough weight on the rear wheel to get a grip on
>> the ice. In this last instance I was using studded tires.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

From that I take it you don't start astride of the bicycle.
Starting on the slickest ice is no problem if you are over the
bicycle and have one foot on the pedal. The problem usually arises
because riders have no idea what gear to use.

Quoted message said:

No. I was astride. The problem was that my saddle height was
slightly higher than my leg length. There was no way (without
lowering the saddle and I didn't have an allen key with me) that I
could sit on the saddle and make the initial push-off. With the
force on the pedals and no weight on the rear wheel I could not get
any traction. (In this case most of the traction probably came from
the Nokia studs,not just the tire contact) Once I got some weight on
the back wheel (achieved by finding a small snow patch as a push-off
point) I was fine.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

What gear do you use?

Quoted message said:

On ice? I have no real idea. Probably something in the mid-range
of a low geared MTB in this case. I was just poking along. In
roughly 20 km on ice that day I would doubt that I ever hit over 20
km/hr

That seems to suggest that you haven't done it, or at least did so
with poor results. This is like starting a car on snow pack in which
you start in second or third gear to prevent wheel spin. On a bicycle
that tis usually the highest gear available because wheel spin is easily
achieved with the pulsating torque of pedaling.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

What do you mean by "know their ice"? With a heavy freeze and ice
plenty thick, thin spots develop wherever there is gas rising from the
lake bottom, or there is current from an incoming stream. Areas of
lakes with a reedy end are highly suspect because the reeds decompose
under water and release CO2 that bubbles to the surface.

Quoted message said:

Exactly. 🙂 After 2 or 3 generations one learns all of this by
personal experience and experience of the ancestors. I didn't say
one learned it quickly (and my lake is fairly simple compared to
some ice surfaces).

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I suppose you know that frozen lakes are at 4°C under the surfaceand
that any current caused y bubbling brings this water in contact with
the ice or a void under the ice. That is dangerous ice.

Quoted message said:

I didn't know about the temperature but re dangerous ice, whatever
the cause, most definitely. We lose a few (usually urban)
snowmobilers and the occasional cross-country skier every year to
lack of ice knowledge.

I mean walking on ice. Thin ice is more common than people think and
not knowing about the vagaries of water density leaves one in the myth
and lore category. The whole lake must reach 4°C before any ice can
form. Not knowing about bubblers and their effect makes the whole
thing a mystery.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I probably knew by age 6 what was safe ice. Rule: First time on
ice carry and use an axe. Also I would not do this on a body of
water where I did not know the currents, etc.

I doubt it.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

What do you do with the ax to assure that ice has no weak spots?

Quoted message said:

Know your ice!

Quoted message said:

A: Learn local ice lore.
B: Chop holes whenever dubious. I have chopped holes every 30 m for
half a kilometre in some cases.

Quoted message said:

A + B usually works.

Chopping holes tells you nothing about thin areas caused by bubblers.

Artificial bubblers:

http://www.dockbubbler.com/

Quoted message said:

Some areas are safe with a general 5-6 cm freeze, some are never
safe, some may be depending on the progression of the freeze. After
about 3 generations you have a good idea of what to expect. I would
be extremely paranoid if I had to go onto ice I did not know without
an expert guide.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The only proper rescue device, whether alone or with another person
is a ladder. That is the best and lightest device for pulling a
person out of a breakthrough.

Quoted message said:

Very true but where I live we hope not to have a breakthrough. We
almost lost grandma back about 1902 but my grandfather was still
learning the ice as he had just moved to the current location. I heard
that if grandma had not been wearing the fur coat, grandfather figured
he could have save grandma and the horse!

Quoted message said:

Pressure cracks on a lake are very dangerous if you don't anticipate
them.

I'm not aware of that term. What is a pressure crack and how does it
occur?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> Either of us could have gone through the ice and nobody would
> ever know where we went. I think the buddy system applies here,
> or should. Or course a week with highs in the teens and low in
> the -teens (F, not C)makes for some thick ice.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

That's a historical condition. The temperature right now, if below
freezing, only assures that the ice that is there is solid. Thick
ice can break up even when more than 20cm if it gets warm. In
contrast 10cm ice can be more than strong enough for a crowd if
below freezing.

Quoted message said:

I have not seen that but it may be dependent on conditions that I am
not familiar with.

Temperature is the condition.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Yes indeed.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Well I am quite happy with about 5-6 cm for walking or cycling but
want perhaps 30 cm for a car. We, before global warming anyway,
routinely get 60-80 cm of ice

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

That can still have thin spots. Beware of marshes at the end of
the lake.

Quoted message said:

Marshes? I would not even go near a spring. 🙂 I am sure some
idiots would though. As I say, we lose a few snowmobilers and skiers
every year to utterly stupid moves.

Most lakes are surrounded by reeds and you must find a solid area if
you want to go out on that lake or leave it. It's good to know how a
thin spot looks. They can be seen if there is a dusting of snow on
the ice.

Jobst Brandt

Quoted message said:

John Kane writes:

A pressure crack seems to appear when our lake has frozen for some
time. As far as I can see it is just the pressue of the expanding ice
causing the ice to buckle. At times it can produce a crack of up to
3-4 metres in width and which may span most or all of the lake (perhaps
4 km ). I had one hit just after I had ridden from the cottage to the
village. On my return , about an hour later I had to detour all the way
to the other side of the lake to get around it.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Marshes? I would not even go near a spring. 🙂 I am sure some
idiots would though. As I say, we lose a few snowmobilers and skiers
every year to utterly stupid moves.

Most lakes are surrounded by reeds and you must find a solid area if
you want to go out on that lake or leave it. It's good to know how a
thin spot looks. They can be seen if there is a dusting of snow on
the ice.

Different lakes maybe? Most of the shores I know are sand or rock. We
have a _lot_ of granite around here. Marshes are very rare and, of
course, dangerous.
John Kane, Kingston ON Canada

Bill Baka said:

John Kane said:

Marshes? I would not even go near a spring. 🙂 I am sure some idiots
would though. As I say, we lose a few snowmobilers and skiers every
year to utterly stupid moves.

I have to reply to that. Cars on ice. I got up to 42 MPH and no more after
about a mile of careful acceleration, then the rear tires started
slipping.

Yes I remember my father saying that he never managed much over 40
miles/hr before losing traction

Turning the wheel to the left, nothing happened, at first.

Quoted message said:

Then the car started angling left, but we were still going straight. We
went all the way around and came out of it still doing about 35 MPH.
Needless to say it was a blast, and probably something I will never get
lucky enough to so again.

Moved further north. 🙂

You can hit the brakes and end up spinning like a top. One of my
father's favourite sports which he and my sister loved and left me
doubting their sanity 🙂

Quoted message said:

When opportunity for fun knocks, I'm there.
Bill Baka