thats it DAMMIT

Steve said:

Thanks to Tyler and Floyd I have lost interest in following Pro Tour Cycling
and specifically the TdF.

Good bye all and throw a punch for me at one of the two if you see them.

Unsubscribing ...

AMF - Steve

Gonna miss you Steve.
The sport is only different now than in the past in that it's
different, more effective products being used. The beauty of the the
sport is still there and the fact that Landis got popped doesn't change
the fact for me that it was one of the most interesting Tours in a long
time.
Kurgan in particular is focused, rightly I think, on the idea that
behavior in cycling is parallel to that in society. Drug use, wheteher
it's alcohol, marijuana, speed, etc.., is widespread and not really
condemned by most of society other than a few diehard crusaders who are
clogging our prison systems with "EVIL" pot smokers.
Open any "fitness" magazine and it full of ads for performance
enhancing supplements. It's questionable if any of these actually work,
but why is it a surprise when athletes do move onto the products that
DO really work?
Then where do you draw the totally artificial line on what's "Doping"
and what isn't. The code they are using now is ridiculously convulated
and long.
Mark McGwire managed to cover his steroid abuse quite nicely by using,
and keeping in plain sight, his bottles of a, then, legal supplement
from a company which made tons of sales because "Big Mac" was publicly
using it.
Doping, in one form or another, has always been there in one form or
another, and will be as long as humans want to get better and win.
So basically I guess my position is to enjoy the beauty of the sport,
be [censored] by the screwed system, and support tossing those stupid
enough to get caught.
What this will do is, as many have said, create a three speed Peleton.
Those who have the money and resources to dope successfully without
getting caught. Those who dope to keep up, but don't have the
sophisticated system in place, so they get caught and kicked out. And
those who don't dope and have very little chance especially over the
length and difficulty of the GTs.
I think the playing field is much less level now than it was in the
past because you really seem to have to have a great, undetectable,
doping plan to win todayand keep it, as opposed to in the past when
they turned a blind eye for the most part and celebrated the actions
during the races.
It really is still the same beautiful sport, it's just that the
Inquisition has come to town and stripped our carefully crafted
innocence and voluntary ignorance away and lots of people have to hate
someone for shattering their illusion while they hold onto their
fantasy of the past. They are taking it out on the riders who really
aren't any different than they have ever been, but someone has to pay,
right?
Bill C

Folks:
I support a number of cycling causes/organizations here in Maine and
New England. In some of the fundraising that I do, I am encountering a
real and increasing backlash concerning cycle racing -- with folks
insisting that they will support rails-to-trails/recreational
cycling/fitness cycling, etc., but not cycle racing due to the recent
doping publicity.

Is anyone else experiencing this?

Best,
Bill Black

Bill C said:

Steve said:

Thanks to Tyler and Floyd I have lost interest in following Pro Tour Cycling
and specifically the TdF.

Good bye all and throw a punch for me at one of the two if you see them.

Unsubscribing ...

AMF - Steve

Gonna miss you Steve.
The sport is only different now than in the past in that it's
different, more effective products being used. The beauty of the the
sport is still there and the fact that Landis got popped doesn't change
the fact for me that it was one of the most interesting Tours in a long
time.
Kurgan in particular is focused, rightly I think, on the idea that
behavior in cycling is parallel to that in society. Drug use, wheteher
it's alcohol, marijuana, speed, etc.., is widespread and not really
condemned by most of society other than a few diehard crusaders who are
clogging our prison systems with "EVIL" pot smokers.
Open any "fitness" magazine and it full of ads for performance
enhancing supplements. It's questionable if any of these actually work,
but why is it a surprise when athletes do move onto the products that
DO really work?
Then where do you draw the totally artificial line on what's "Doping"
and what isn't. The code they are using now is ridiculously convulated
and long.
Mark McGwire managed to cover his steroid abuse quite nicely by using,
and keeping in plain sight, his bottles of a, then, legal supplement
from a company which made tons of sales because "Big Mac" was publicly
using it.
Doping, in one form or another, has always been there in one form or
another, and will be as long as humans want to get better and win.
So basically I guess my position is to enjoy the beauty of the sport,
be [censored] by the screwed system, and support tossing those stupid
enough to get caught.
What this will do is, as many have said, create a three speed Peleton.
Those who have the money and resources to dope successfully without
getting caught. Those who dope to keep up, but don't have the
sophisticated system in place, so they get caught and kicked out. And
those who don't dope and have very little chance especially over the
length and difficulty of the GTs.
I think the playing field is much less level now than it was in the
past because you really seem to have to have a great, undetectable,
doping plan to win todayand keep it, as opposed to in the past when
they turned a blind eye for the most part and celebrated the actions
during the races.
It really is still the same beautiful sport, it's just that the
Inquisition has come to town and stripped our carefully crafted
innocence and voluntary ignorance away and lots of people have to hate
someone for shattering their illusion while they hold onto their
fantasy of the past. They are taking it out on the riders who really
aren't any different than they have ever been, but someone has to pay,
right?
Bill C

"billb" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Folks:
I support a number of cycling causes/organizations here in Maine and
New England. In some of the fundraising that I do, I am encountering a
real and increasing backlash concerning cycle racing -- with folks
insisting that they will support rails-to-trails/recreational
cycling/fitness cycling, etc., but not cycle racing due to the recent
doping publicity.

Is anyone else experiencing this?

Best,
Bill Black

That is unfortunate, whether or not it's limited to your area or not. I'll
bet little league hasn't taken a hit.

"Steve" <h90943@hotmaildotcom> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Thanks to Tyler and Floyd I have lost interest in following Pro Tour
Cycling
and specifically the TdF.

Good bye all and throw a punch for me at one of the two if you see them.

Unsubscribing ...

Thanks GOD that stupid [censored] will leave this group!

"B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

That is unfortunate, whether or not it's limited to your area or not.
I'll bet little league hasn't taken a hit.

Ain't this the entire purpose of your life laff@me? Isn't it your position
that no one can race bicycles in ANY class without doping?

billb said:

I support a number of cycling causes/organizations here in Maine and
New England. In some of the fundraising that I do, I am encountering a
real and increasing backlash concerning cycle racing -- with folks
insisting that they will support rails-to-trails/recreational
cycling/fitness cycling, etc., but not cycle racing due to the recent
doping publicity.

Is anyone else experiencing this?

I know a promoter of a very high-end event who said his phone was
ringing off the hook from sponsors the day after the Tour of France
ended, but stopped later that week....

But I don't think those potential sponsors are going to non-racing
cycling stuff.

JT

****************************
Remove "remove" to reply
Visit http://www.jt10000.com
****************************

B. Lafferty said:

"billb" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Folks:
I support a number of cycling causes/organizations here in Maine and
New England. In some of the fundraising that I do, I am encountering a
real and increasing backlash concerning cycle racing -- with folks
insisting that they will support rails-to-trails/recreational
cycling/fitness cycling, etc., but not cycle racing due to the recent
doping publicity.

Is anyone else experiencing this?

Best,
Bill Black

That is unfortunate, whether or not it's limited to your area or not. I'll
bet little league hasn't taken a hit.

How about HS football down south? That's almost a religion, with
"sponsors" lining kids up even before they go to college so "their" HS
wins no matter what.
I think they are the ultimate in psycho fan behavior and the "Do
anything it takes to win!" mentality.
Saw a lot of that in Florida, Georgia, and Texas. I'm a die hard, life
long Red Sox fan, and we are normal compared to those HS football fans
and what they'll do.
The best cheaters are the best coaches and players to them.
Bill C

Bill C said:

It really is still the same beautiful sport, it's just that the
Inquisition has come to town and stripped our carefully crafted
innocence and voluntary ignorance away and lots of people have to hate
someone for shattering their illusion while they hold onto their
fantasy of the past. They are taking it out on the riders who really
aren't any different than they have ever been, but someone has to pay,
right?

Excuse me, Bill. I chopped the top off and repeated in hopes that a few
haters, who can be assumed to fatigue easily when reading, might make
it all the way through that fine paragraph.

"Scapegoats". --D-y

"Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

That is unfortunate, whether or not it's limited to your area or not.
I'll bet little league hasn't taken a hit.

Ain't this the entire purpose of your life laff@me?

Non.

Quoted message said:

Isn't it your position that no one can race bicycles in ANY class without
doping?

Non.

Quoted message said:

"Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Steve" <h90943@hotmaildotcom> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Thanks to Tyler and Floyd I have lost interest in following Pro Tour
Cycling
and specifically the TdF.

Good bye all and throw a punch for me at one of the two if you see them.

Unsubscribing ...

Thanks GOD that stupid [censored] will leave this group!

You're leaving??!! Wonderful!

B. Lafferty said:

"billb" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Folks:
I support a number of cycling causes/organizations here in Maine and
New England. In some of the fundraising that I do, I am encountering a
real and increasing backlash concerning cycle racing -- with folks
insisting that they will support rails-to-trails/recreational
cycling/fitness cycling, etc., but not cycle racing due to the recent
doping publicity.

Is anyone else experiencing this?

Best,
Bill Black

That is unfortunate, whether or not it's limited to your area or not. I'll
bet little league hasn't taken a hit.

With baseball and other team sports you could at least argue that the
dopers didn't necessarily single-handedly cause their teams to win a
championship. With cycling that's not the case. If the rider dopes
then any victory is completely tarnished.

JB

Quoted message said:

Folks:
I support a number of cycling causes/organizations here in Maine and
New England. In some of the fundraising that I do, I am encountering a
real and increasing backlash concerning cycle racing -- with folks
insisting that they will support rails-to-trails/recreational
cycling/fitness cycling, etc., but not cycle racing due to the recent
doping publicity.

Is anyone else experiencing this?

Best,
Bill Black

yes, it's happening here too. pro-cycling, is it real or Reuters,
everyone is tired of figuring it out, or have. recreational cycling is
growing, but I never hear anyone talking about racing. kind of embarrassing
to even bring it up.

Quoted message said:

Kurgan in particular is focused, rightly I think, on the idea that
behavior in cycling is parallel to that in society. Drug use, wheteher
it's alcohol, marijuana, speed, etc.., is widespread and not really
condemned by most of society other than a few diehard crusaders who are
clogging our prison systems with "EVIL" pot smokers.
Open any "fitness" magazine and it full of ads for performance
enhancing supplements. It's questionable if any of these actually work,
but why is it a surprise when athletes do move onto the products that
DO really work?
Then where do you draw the totally artificial line on what's "Doping"
and what isn't. The code they are using now is ridiculously convulated
and long.
Mark McGwire managed to cover his steroid abuse quite nicely by using,
and keeping in plain sight, his bottles of a, then, legal supplement
from a company which made tons of sales because "Big Mac" was publicly
using it.

You left out some of the more-obvious issues society hasn't found a way to
deal with. Rampant cheating in schools (even/especially? at places like
Stanford), high members of congress (and beyond) who believe they can get
away with just about anything simply because they're in a powerful position,
and complete moral bankruptcy at many corporations (Enron) that makes the
movie Wall Street look incredibly tame.

From what, exactly, are athletes supposed to derive their moral/ethical
barometer from?

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

"Bill C" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Steve said:

Thanks to Tyler and Floyd I have lost interest in following Pro Tour
Cycling
and specifically the TdF.

Good bye all and throw a punch for me at one of the two if you see them.

Unsubscribing ...

AMF - Steve

Gonna miss you Steve.
The sport is only different now than in the past in that it's
different, more effective products being used. The beauty of the the
sport is still there and the fact that Landis got popped doesn't change
the fact for me that it was one of the most interesting Tours in a long
time.
Kurgan in particular is focused, rightly I think, on the idea that
behavior in cycling is parallel to that in society. Drug use, wheteher
it's alcohol, marijuana, speed, etc.., is widespread and not really
condemned by most of society other than a few diehard crusaders who are
clogging our prison systems with "EVIL" pot smokers.
Open any "fitness" magazine and it full of ads for performance
enhancing supplements. It's questionable if any of these actually work,
but why is it a surprise when athletes do move onto the products that
DO really work?
Then where do you draw the totally artificial line on what's "Doping"
and what isn't. The code they are using now is ridiculously convulated
and long.
Mark McGwire managed to cover his steroid abuse quite nicely by using,
and keeping in plain sight, his bottles of a, then, legal supplement
from a company which made tons of sales because "Big Mac" was publicly
using it.
Doping, in one form or another, has always been there in one form or
another, and will be as long as humans want to get better and win.
So basically I guess my position is to enjoy the beauty of the sport,
be [censored] by the screwed system, and support tossing those stupid
enough to get caught.
What this will do is, as many have said, create a three speed Peleton.
Those who have the money and resources to dope successfully without
getting caught. Those who dope to keep up, but don't have the
sophisticated system in place, so they get caught and kicked out. And
those who don't dope and have very little chance especially over the
length and difficulty of the GTs.
I think the playing field is much less level now than it was in the
past because you really seem to have to have a great, undetectable,
doping plan to win todayand keep it, as opposed to in the past when
they turned a blind eye for the most part and celebrated the actions
during the races.
It really is still the same beautiful sport, it's just that the
Inquisition has come to town and stripped our carefully crafted
innocence and voluntary ignorance away and lots of people have to hate
someone for shattering their illusion while they hold onto their
fantasy of the past. They are taking it out on the riders who really
aren't any different than they have ever been, but someone has to pay,
right?
Bill C

Mike Jacoubowsky said:

You left out some of the more-obvious issues society hasn't found a way to
deal with. Rampant cheating in schools (even/especially? at places like
Stanford), high members of congress (and beyond) who believe they can get
away with just about anything simply because they're in a powerful position,
and complete moral bankruptcy at many corporations (Enron) that makes the
movie Wall Street look incredibly tame.

From what, exactly, are athletes supposed to derive their moral/ethical
barometer from?

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles

Moral and ethical barometers? While all of the above has been true
pretty much since each of the relevant institutions were founded, but
being a barometer would pretty much indicate that they are the same as
everyone else.

If you want a moral or ethical compass, I would probably go with
specific individuals. I've yet seen a profession with sufficient
constancy or standards to be a good compass. Some of the better
compasses were headed in the right direction when they took a bullet.
Or got hit on the head when they used their time to be someplace
really, really unpopular. Following compasses can be damn
uncomfortable and not necessarily all that relevant to bike racing.

Curtis L. Russell
Odenton, MD (USA)
Just someone on two wheels...

"B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

That is unfortunate, whether or not it's limited to your area or not.
I'll bet little league hasn't taken a hit.

Ain't this the entire purpose of your life laff@me?

Non.

So not only are you spouting [censored] but you're doing it in French?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Isn't it your position that no one can race bicycles in ANY class without
doping?

Non.

See above.

What we're seeing is the logical extension of everything laff@me has stood
for. Now he's going to pretend that it NEVER occurred to him that fascistic
power in the hands of the dope finders would lead to fascist behavior on
their part.

"B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Steve" <h90943@hotmaildotcom> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Thanks to Tyler and Floyd I have lost interest in following Pro Tour
Cycling
and specifically the TdF.

Good bye all and throw a punch for me at one of the two if you see them.

Unsubscribing ...

Thanks GOD that stupid [censored] will leave this group!

You're leaving??!! Wonderful!

Imagine something like that coming from a pansy like you? I'm really
surprised!

"Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Steve" <h90943@hotmaildotcom> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> Thanks to Tyler and Floyd I have lost interest in following Pro Tour
> Cycling
> and specifically the TdF.
>
> Good bye all and throw a punch for me at one of the two if you see

them.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>
> Unsubscribing ...

Thanks GOD that stupid [censored] will leave this group!

You're leaving??!! Wonderful!

Imagine something like that coming from a pansy like you? I'm really
surprised!

I would love to put my fist into your face Kunich. In fact since I live on
the East coast it would be hard and my Creds would be in jeopardy I will
have a big laugh when someone else does.

Kunich, you are a ....

"Steve" <h90943@hotmaildotcom> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I would love to put my fist into your face Kunich.

And I would really love it if you tried. I gave up fighting with people
because it was so easy to hurt them. But I'm not opposed to defending
myself.