Big Gear Efforts

fergie said:

Tried a few big gear efforts mixed with some high frequency efforts. What I am finding is...

Normal gear efforts lead to a normal power output and expected heart rate.

Big gear efforts lead a much higher power output (20-40watts) at around 60rpm and a slightly higher heart rate (up 10beats).

High frequency efforts lead a slightly higher power output (10watts) at around 120rpm but a much higher heart rate (up 20beats).

All at around the same RPE.

Now I know the Aussies do both SE work in the big gears and O2 training at high pedalling freqencies.

In relation to training should I be doing big gear efforts if it means I can crank out more power in training even if I don't race at such slow cadences. I know the Aussies and the NZ track team use BT ergs to get down to 40rpm where I can't wind my windtrainer up that hard to get the resistance needed. Or does it mean I should be racing in bigger gears.

Also will the high freq efforts be a good idea seeing it really gets the heart rate up (cardiovascular benefits?)?

Hamish Ferguson
Cycling Coach

You need to train your engine (cardio)and your pistons (legs) to get the most benefit. I hear michael rogers will do motorpacing one session then do SE efforts another session. I suggest you spin as much as possible in races, your legs will get tired a lot quicker in bigger gears.

If you can spin while your cruising around in the race you will be able to attack more fiercly when you flick it into the big ring. Being a junior I have to race in the little ring, by the end of the race my legs are really fresh but usually someone has to walk me to the car because I am seeing stars and finding it hard to breath. I would recommend you try a few races with big chainring locked out, that will really help your engine. Then do SE sessions during the week to help the pistons.

by the way I dug up this old post. How did these riders go at the junior tour of canberra and have there FT's changed all that much since the last post.

For someone to win the junior tour of canberra in the U19's what kind of FT would you need. Cam meyer won it this year i think?

Here are some revised FTPs for my riders using the Dmax method of analysing the lactate curve from a ramped test with 3min intervals and 30watts increases...

To compare within the age group...\

FTP: 290watts (Happy whoawhoa?)
Age: 15
Mass: 64kg
Best races: No 1 ranked U17 in Region
Years in Sport: 2

FTP: 240watts
Age: 15 (rider aboves twin brother)
Mass: 63.5kg
Best races: No 2 ranked U17 in Region
Years in Sport: 2

FTP: 245watts
Age: 16
Mass: 56kg (156cm tall)
Best races: Top 3 rank in NZ U17 pursuit and top 10 in Road
Years in Sport: 6
Note rider: rider tested after a bad NZ winter full of flu's and was overtrained with far too much interval training before I took over his coaching.

FTP: 190watts
Age: 14 Female
Mass: 58kg
Best races: 2nd Nats U15 TT, 3rd Nats U15 RR, 2nd Nats U17 IP.
Years in Sport 2

FTP: 200watts
Age: 14
Mass: 56kg
Best Races: 10th Nats U15 TT
Years in Sport: 1

FTP: 220watts
Age 34 (me)
Mass: 86kg (dropped 10kg in 2 months)
Years in Sport: 21 (back to cycling in May 2005 after 5 year break)
Best races: Former Regional Champ and Rep, World Ranked in Sport Aerobics and now can dominate cat 5 and is competitive in cat 4 races.

FTP: 225watts
Age: 45
Mass: 75kg (Father of twins above)
Years in Sport: 2
Best races: Top Cat 5 rider in Canterbury in recent series

FYI

Hamish Ferguson
Cycling Coach

fergie said:

Big gear efforts lead a much higher power output (20-40watts) at around 60rpm and a slightly higher heart rate (up 10beats).

Hamish Ferguson
Cycling Coach

Are we talking about max efforts? With your heartrate being that much higher at a cadence where you would think it would be lower, I suspect you're just riding harder during the big gear efforts.

dm69 said:

You need to train your engine (cardio)and your pistons (legs) to get the most benefit. I hear michael rogers will do motorpacing one session then do SE efforts another session. I suggest you spin as much as possible in races, your legs will get tired a lot quicker in bigger gears.

No argument there. I race with a compact chainset and I haven't used a 50X12-13 yet in the racing. I am personally going [censored] at the moment 🙁

Quoted post said:

If you can spin while your cruising around in the race you will be able to attack more fiercly when you flick it into the big ring. Being a junior I have to race in the little ring, by the end of the race my legs are really fresh but usually someone has to walk me to the car because I am seeing stars and finding it hard to breath. I would recommend you try a few races with big chainring locked out, that will really help your engine. Then do SE sessions during the week to help the pistons.

Good attitude to racing. As a U17 my old man usually had to lift me off the bike. Due to flat courses we also used to race on track bikes (with two brakes) where possible.

Quoted post said:

by the way I dug up this old post. How did these riders go at the junior tour of canberra and have there FT's changed all that much since the last post.

The twins were a surprise selection (for me) The one with the high FT won the local tour and in the NZ selection tour placed 5th and his brother 7th. In the hardest stage they rode away together and finished 1-2. Another rider I coach and thought would be a shoo in only placed 17th (of 70) and missed out. The girl (now 15) did well in the 15km time trial that starts the tour and placed 4th overall hanging in well on the climbs against riders a year older.

It was interesting that last year in the girls there were 3 1st year U17s in the top four and none of these riders did any good this time and again three 1st year U17s took the 3 of the top 4 spots.

At Canberra the boys were on team duties and had to attack early on to draw out the good Aussie riders which worked as a Kiwi won overall. In the girls event my riders lack of technical skill proved her undoing as she climbed well but was getting dropped on the descents which led to a low overall placing. In a straight line she would be more than competitive, hence her fondness for pursuiting.

Quoted post said:

For someone to win the junior tour of canberra in the U19's what kind of FT would you need. Cam meyer won it this year i think?

Hard to say without taking account of body size, anaerobic capacity, tactical skill, motivation and technical ability. I hope to use these factors in the NZ Vet 1 Points Race next year to make up for a low FT.

Quoted post said:

Here are some revised FTPs for my riders using the Dmax method of analysing the lactate curve from a ramped test with 3min intervals and 30watts increases...

To compare within the age group...\

FTP: 290watts (Happy whoawhoa?)
Age: 15
Mass: 64kg
Best races: No 1 ranked U17 in Region
Years in Sport: 2

FTP: 240watts
Age: 15 (rider aboves twin brother)
Mass: 63.5kg
Best races: No 2 ranked U17 in Region
Years in Sport: 2

FTP: 190watts
Age: 14 Female
Mass: 58kg
Best races: 2nd Nats U15 TT, 3rd Nats U15 RR, 2nd Nats U17 IP.
Years in Sport 2

The boys havent been tested properly since this point (lots of colds and we changed testing labs) but the girl is now around 205 watts FT. The point where she ended the test (close to MAP) is up around 40watts higher so I am picking this means her pursuit ability will be greater next season through a mix of maturation, experience and training.

Hamish Ferguson
Cycling Coach

whoawhoa said:

Are we talking about max efforts? With your heartrate being that much higher at a cadence where you would think it would be lower, I suspect you're just riding harder during the big gear efforts.

Max 20min effort and a similar RPE. It didn't feel any harder. I find that on hills at a lower cadence you have to produce more power just to keep moving. This was my argument about SE training that there was no magical effect you just had to produce the power to keep rolling.

My question is should I train at a cadence (be it 40rpm, 60rpm, 80rpm) that allows me to produce the most power and should I also train a high cadence (be it 110, 130, 150) if it means a very high heart rate for a slightly higher power output as normal efforts.

An interesting factor is when I started riding all we had was a 52-42 crankset and a 21 sprocket so climbing hills would be a very low cadence so perhaps I naturally did a lot of SE work as kid. These days the U17 riders I coach use a 39 x 25-28 when climbing and spin a lot more. On my comeback to the sport I am using a 36X27 on the steepest hills or long climbs and spinning more but based on times from old pursuits and time trials I estimate I am about 75watts off the pace.

If SE training allows me to produce more power in training should I not make use of it? Even if I race on normal gears. Is achieving the most power in training the ultimate goal?

Is there any advantage to having a higher heart rate at a set power output by using the high cadence training. Should having a higher heart rate for a set duration also be a priority?

Hamish Ferguson
Cycling Coach

Three points, fergie. The first is that I suspect there is an optimal cadence (or cadence range) at which one can produce the maximum power for a given duration. For example, I am a spinner and prefer higher cadences at all durations because I max out on torque early but I can output that torque pretty far up the cadence curve. The second is that I have yet to see any evidence that it is beneficial to train at a cadence (e.g., slow) other than what I would use in my events. IOW, if my preferred climbing cadence is 85-95, I don't know that there would be any advantage to training at a cadence of, say, 60. Third, I think it is predictable that one's HR will be higher at higher cadences (power constant), but that doesn't mean one should ride at lower cadences in order to reduce HR at a given power. I just basically ignore my HR as a proxy variable for efficiency.

Thanks Paul

I do think there is an optimal cadence. If it is 40-60rpm you still wouldn't race that low. In a pursuit you would lose too much at the start and in road racing I find it easy enough to crack the guys riding at 70-80rpm as it is.

But if riding at these low cadences allows me to produce more power in a training effort is this not a good thing?

Hamish Ferguson
Cycling Coach

fergie said:

But if riding at these low cadences allows me to produce more power in a training effort is this not a good thing?

Well, I don't see how it is a bad thing. Riding your high-intensity efforts at higher power is always a good thing, if you can sustain the target duration. If I could produce more power at 60rpm, I would probably train at 60rpm. But, I can't, so I train at the cadences at which I can produce the most power over the target duration. A classic example is NM efforts. I do these efforts with a starting cadence near 100 because I produce maximum power in the range 120-150. I have done efforts starting at 60rpm, but I just don't produce enough torque to produce much power so I end up just getting fatigued until I get into my sweet spot cadence range. I guess my engine is like a high-revving car engine -- it needs to get above a certain RPM before it really kicks in.

Interesting thread, with no clear cut answer.

In all of my 30 years training, this is the first season that I have tried over gear efforts. I rather liked the results and benefits.

For what it is worth I would take the third week of every month and insert 4 workouts using a larger gear. And as the season progressed I was able to handle larger gears for racing, I would then train my over gear cycle at approx. 4" larger. During the 4 days on an over gear I would hit on all of the disciplines that I work at. Standing starts, 10sec, 20sec, and 30 sec efforts.

I really believe and preach to all of the Jrs. here that the sport is always about speed. You can have all of the endurance and power in the world, but if can't get it around at the finish fast enough to win, then whats the point.

I guess what I'am saying, do the right things to build the strength, but don't forget the speed.

I have nothing in particular against Big Gear training, except maybe that I would need a 9day week in order to find room to include such a session, and that I am improving anyway without them.

In relation to flat course riding, my climbing workouts are Big Gear efforts anyway.

I climb at a cadence ranging between 70 and 85 rpm (for hills that are 8% and higher), while on the flat, I use 85-95 rpm.

In order to increase the power I can generate uphill, my goal is to increase the cadence, not the gear. And so I choose to include uphill sprints in my schedule. During these sessions, I climb at 90-100rpm, for durations between 45-90sec.

In a week, if I have 1 regular L5 session uphill, 1 L6 session uphill, that leaves me no room for an additionnal Big Gear session.

SolarEnergy said:

In a week, if I have 1 regular L5 session uphill, 1 L6 session uphill, that leaves me no room for an additionnal Big Gear session.

That really gets to the heart of it, doesn't it? We talk about various ways of increasing power and various workouts, but we rarely discuss whether that is the most efficient way to attain the desired adaptation. It's not just a question of whether a given workout results in increased power. It's a question of allocation of training time. What workouts give us the best bang for the buck?

Rapdaddyo and solar you may want to explore varying your weekly routine from week to week. It sounds like the only goal of your training is to complete the sessions at as high a power as you can. Nothing against that and its a hell of a lot better than what most people do. But sometimes doing extremely fast cadence efforts and extremely hard SE sessions will give you a bigger benefit at a smaller power. Ok it might not show up as harder on the TSS but doing a 20minute effort flat out in your little ring and a 15 is better for your cardio than anything else.

Especially for people looking at long term improvement in there FT, spinning and SE are essential. Spinning will give your cardio the extra capacity to maintain a higher HR and more power during TT's and SE will train your legs to handle more torque. Combine the two and you are going faster.

Here is a weekly plan you could use

Monday- Active Recovery
Tuesday- 10x2minute efforts at a rapid cadence (as high as you can handle (120-160rpm) morning/ 5x5minute efforts up a steady hill in the big ring and a 13 afternoon
Wednesday- 3x20mins at 102% FT morning/ max wattage efforts 10x20 second efforts alternating between flat and uphill afternoon
Thursday- 130%FT efforts, hold for as long as possible. Repeat the effort 5 times morning/ easy recovery ride
Friday- 30mins-1hour active recovery or just have the day off
Saturday- LSD ride but practice mashing on the uphills in a big gear and spinning at a high cadence down the other side
Sunday- All out TT (1 hour as hard as possible 98-102% FT) to test your FT. Go to a race or do another LSD ride depending on the time of season.

In a week like this you are varying your workouts a lot, also I wouldn't recommend even doing a week like this two weeks in a row. Keep varying the weeks to prevent staleness. As you can see Tuesday is dedicated to cadence and you can also fit in a session without even thinking about it on a LSD ride.

Solar energy recommends having a 9 day week to fit in all the different sessions...GOOD IDEA😉 . How the hell does our body know we work in 7 day blocks 😄 .

dm69 said:

Here is a weekly plan you could use

Monday- Active Recovery
Tuesday- 10x2minute efforts at a rapid cadence (as high as you can handle (120-160rpm) morning/ 5x5minute efforts up a steady hill in the big ring and a 13 afternoon
Wednesday- 3x20mins at 102% FT morning/ max wattage efforts 10x20 second efforts alternating between flat and uphill afternoon
Thursday- 130%FT efforts, hold for as long as possible. Repeat the effort 5 times morning/ easy recovery ride
Friday- 30mins-1hour active recovery or just have the day off
Saturday- LSD ride but practice mashing on the uphills in a big gear and spinning at a high cadence down the other side
Sunday- All out TT (1 hour as hard as possible 98-102% FT) to test your FT. Go to a race or do another LSD ride depending on the time of season.

In a week like this you are varying your workouts a lot, also I wouldn't recommend even doing a week like this two weeks in a row. Keep varying the weeks to prevent staleness. As you can see Tuesday is dedicated to cadence and you can also fit in a session without even thinking about it on a LSD ride.

Hi coach. Thanks a lot for this sample plan.

But the problem is I couldn't do it, mainly because of my right knee that requires to handle the workload with care, and also because I don't ride twice a day, and also because even in a hard week of training I'd need more recovery.

Thanks for the advice anyway, it looks like a very fun week for someone that could handle it.

dm69 said:

But sometimes doing extremely fast cadence efforts and extremely hard SE sessions will give you a bigger benefit at a smaller power.

Basis for this statement?

Seems to me that working outside of the cadence you typically race at, or want to race at, is a good way to lose some of the specificity of training. We know there isn't some disconnect between "building strength" (big-gear efforts) and "building aerobic/cardio" (high-cadence efforts).

p.s. I also like working outside of a 7-day block. My favorite is 3-on, 1-off, 3-on, 1-off, etc, etc. It requires more planning during race season.

Yeah, My argument is "if I produce more power in bigger gears then it's a good thing to do big gear training". By the same token if I get a really high trainng heart rate for a similar power with high cadence training then it also good?

I can't see the benefit in doing something if it either doesn't allow me to generate more power or a high heart rate for either the same workload or perceived effort.

Hamish Ferguson
Cycling Coach

fergie said:

Yeah, My argument is "if I produce more power in bigger gears then it's a good thing to do big gear training".

Correct me if I am wrong Fergie, but if one finds a cadence (and gear of course) that allows to generate more power on climbs, then that's not overgearing. That's just a combination that seems appropriate for a given climb (depending on total duration and grade), for this rider.

My understanding of SE (Strength-Endurance) training, is that it implies choosing a cadence/gear ratio that is not favorable to generate more power. For instance, if one is able to generate his highest mean power over a 3k hill at 7%, by choosing 39-27 at 82rpm, then that's not overgearing or SE training to me.

Overgearing, or SE training, would imply choosing 39-15 at 40rpm. Underlying this choice is the overload in strength. But the max mean power that one can generate during a SE training session would undoubtedly be lower.

For what it's worth, I have a friend that does all his climbing off the saddle pushing big gears. And it works very well for him.

SolarEnergy said:

Correct me if I am wrong Fergie, but if one finds a cadence (and gear of course) that allows to generate more power on climbs, then that's not overgearing. That's just a combination that seems appropriate for a given climb (depending on total duration and grade), for this rider.

That's my question. I would never consider racing at such low cadences because I know what I do to those who do in races.

Perhaps in a TT like Gonchar. I assume there are those who will do better on very low cadences just as there are those who pedal at normal and high cadences.

Quoted post said:

My understanding of SE (Strength-Endurance) training, is that it implies choosing a cadence/gear ratio that is not favorable to generate more power. For instance, if one is able to generate his highest mean power over a 3k hill at 7%, by choosing 39-27 at 82rpm, then that's not overgearing or SE training to me.

For some the goal is to produce my torque. I don't buy this. I want more power and therefore more speed in a given situation or over a set duration. The Aussies do big gear efforts from 6sec to 20min.

Quoted post said:

Overgearing, or SE training, would imply choosing 39-15 at 40rpm. Underlying this choice is the overload in strength. But the max mean power that one can generate during a SE training session would undoubtedly be lower.

YMMV. I find with higher gears that I can produce more power.

Hamish Ferguson
Cycling Coach