avoid pacelines

Callistus Valerius said:

Reading the previous thread on pacelines, I wonder if others have had a
similar evolution on this issue as I have. When I first started riding, I
was weak, so I was always looking for easier ways to get down the road, and
I discovered the paceline. For years I use to think they were fun, doing
echelons, rotating pacelines, etc. But in those years I discovered all the
crashes I ever had, were in pacelines. Also as those paceline years went
by, I found out they took away from the fun I was seeking in riding. I
never saw the countryside, as we wizzed down the road, looking at only each
others asses, wearing our arms out with arm signals, and getting headaches
by keeping a close eye on strangers and the tedium of concentrating with the
limited view of the road. Then I woke up one morning and said to myself and
said "fu*k all of that. I now ride mostly solo, or if I ride with someone,
at least 20 yards apart. With this new approach I found out that the fun of
riding went way up, I now enjoy the road, the countryside, and now can
relax. I still do pacelines, in timed events, or in hurricaine winds, and
there is a place for it, but for a weekend rides, forget it.

With ya on that! - f***ed up my back when I crashed riding in a tight
group two years ago (bye-bye season in late May), and crashed again
last year, this time I broke my collarbone, in a paceline (bye-bye
season in early July).

Plus this is the second year that I have failed to complete the Death
Ride. Really disappointed about that, especially after a significant
preparatory effort.

None of this is about enjoying cycling. Pacelines aren't fun (except
being fast), and certainly completing the Death Ride won't be enjoyable
(well, having done it will provide a sense of satisfaction but the
actual act will be painful).

Gotta get back to the joy!

D'ohBoy
"You took my joy, I want it back!" - Lucinda Williams, "Joy"

Callistus Valerius said:

Reading the previous thread on pacelines, I wonder if others have had a
similar evolution on this issue as I have. When I first started riding, I
was weak, so I was always looking for easier ways to get down the road, and
I discovered the paceline. For years I use to think they were fun, doing
echelons, rotating pacelines, etc. But in those years I discovered all the
crashes I ever had, were in pacelines. Also as those paceline years went
by, I found out they took away from the fun I was seeking in riding. I
never saw the countryside, as we wizzed down the road, looking at only each
others asses, wearing our arms out with arm signals, and getting headaches
by keeping a close eye on strangers and the tedium of concentrating with the
limited view of the road. Then I woke up one morning and said to myself and
said "fu*k all of that. I now ride mostly solo, or if I ride with someone,
at least 20 yards apart. With this new approach I found out that the fun of
riding went way up, I now enjoy the road, the countryside, and now can
relax. I still do pacelines, in timed events, or in hurricaine winds, and
there is a place for it, but for a weekend rides, forget it.

You've exactly described my own evolution as a rider. Since giving up
pacelines, my riding is much more enjoyable and less stressful.

Solo rides provide total freedom. I choose my own route, start time,
and pace. And can make whatever changes I please along the way. I'm
much more relaxed on the bike, even when pushing the pace. And I notice
things I'd never seen before on roads I've ridden dozens of times in
pacelines.

Sure, your average speed in a paceline will be a couple of mph faster.
But that's because you're cheating the wind, not because you're a
stronger rider. And the time required for a typical 50 mile solo ride
is usually less than for a similar group ride because there's less time
spent standing around waiting.

I gladly traded the rush and excitement of paceline riding for the
freedom, safety, and enjoyment of solo rides.

Art Harris

D'ohBoy a écrit :

Quoted message said:

Callistus Valerius said:

Reading the previous thread on pacelines, I wonder if others have had a
similar evolution on this issue as I have. When I first started riding, I
was weak, so I was always looking for easier ways to get down the road, and
I discovered the paceline. For years I use to think they were fun, doing
echelons, rotating pacelines, etc. But in those years I discovered all the
crashes I ever had, were in pacelines. Also as those paceline years went
by, I found out they took away from the fun I was seeking in riding. I
never saw the countryside, as we wizzed down the road, looking at only each
others asses, wearing our arms out with arm signals, and getting headaches
by keeping a close eye on strangers and the tedium of concentrating with the
limited view of the road. Then I woke up one morning and said to myself and
said "fu*k all of that. I now ride mostly solo, or if I ride with someone,
at least 20 yards apart. With this new approach I found out that the fun of
riding went way up, I now enjoy the road, the countryside, and now can
relax. I still do pacelines, in timed events, or in hurricaine winds, and
there is a place for it, but for a weekend rides, forget it.

With ya on that! - f***ed up my back when I crashed riding in a tight
group two years ago (bye-bye season in late May), and crashed again
last year, this time I broke my collarbone, in a paceline (bye-bye
season in early July).

Plus this is the second year that I have failed to complete the Death
Ride. Really disappointed about that, especially after a significant
preparatory effort.

None of this is about enjoying cycling. Pacelines aren't fun (except
being fast), and certainly completing the Death Ride won't be enjoyable
(well, having done it will provide a sense of satisfaction but the
actual act will be painful).

Gotta get back to the joy!

D'ohBoy
"You took my joy, I want it back!" - Lucinda Williams, "Joy"

Just adding 2 cents -
1) the only time I wear a hel..t (crossing a boundary, sorry) is on
group rides.
2) pacelines are not group rides, but a subset, and I don't do them
unless I know the guys I am riding with.
3) yes, riding a bike for leisure is supposed to be enjoyable, not
another version of work. a paceline can be fun, but when it's not, I
drop off.

Callistus Valerius said:

I now ride mostly solo, or if I ride with someone,
at least 20 yards apart.

Try at least 5000 meters. Works much better.

JT

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Visit http://www.jt10000.com
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Wow, people are really down on pacelining. I find them both extremely
fun and extremely dangerous. I do ride solo alot but find that cars
have less respect for me as a soloist, so pick your poison.

My favorite is a paceline of about 4 or 5 riders of comparable ability
and predictable riding habits. Still dangerous but less so than a
larger group, plus having someone else to share the joy with seems to
add joy to the joy.

Joyous riding,

Chris

Art Harris said:

Solo rides provide total freedom. I choose my own route, start time,
and pace. And can make whatever changes I please along the way. I'm
much more relaxed on the bike, even when pushing the pace. And I notice
things I'd never seen before on roads I've ridden dozens of times in
pacelines.

Sure, your average speed in a paceline will be a couple of mph faster.
But that's because you're cheating the wind, not because you're a
stronger rider.

Unfortunately for you, you must have been in pacelines with like
minded riders who didn't like to ride in pacelines or didn't know how.
If you never were able to experience the group dynamic of common
effort, challenging yourself to stay on even if the effort is above
your personal comfort zone, and ending up with a huge endorphin high,
then I'm sorry for you.

My personal strategy is to ride in a fast and furious group ride once
a week, a long and challenging group ride once a week, and a solo ride
of various lengths and elevation once a week. That way I get my cake
and eat it.

Callistus Valerius said:

Reading the previous thread on pacelines, I wonder if others have had a
similar evolution on this issue as I have. When I first started riding, I
was weak, so I was always looking for easier ways to get down the road, and
I discovered the paceline. For years I use to think they were fun, doing
echelons, rotating pacelines, etc. But in those years I discovered all the
crashes I ever had, were in pacelines. Also as those paceline years went
by, I found out they took away from the fun I was seeking in riding. I
never saw the countryside, as we wizzed down the road, looking at only each
others asses, wearing our arms out with arm signals, and getting headaches
by keeping a close eye on strangers and the tedium of concentrating with the
limited view of the road. Then I woke up one morning and said to myself and
said "fu*k all of that. I now ride mostly solo, or if I ride with someone,
at least 20 yards apart. With this new approach I found out that the fun of
riding went way up, I now enjoy the road, the countryside, and now can
relax. I still do pacelines, in timed events, or in hurricaine winds, and
there is a place for it, but for a weekend rides, forget it.

Amen brother-too much testasterone(how do ya spell it?) in these 50 yo.
posseurs jamming around like they're training for that there tour in
france...

Callistus Valerius said:

Reading the previous thread on pacelines, I wonder if others have had a
similar evolution on this issue as I have. When I first started riding, I
was weak, so I was always looking for easier ways to get down the road, and
I discovered the paceline. For years I use to think they were fun, doing
echelons, rotating pacelines, etc.

They are fun, and challenging, if you're with a group of people of similar
strength whom you trust, and they develop team spirit, concentration,
smoothness and bike-handling skill like no other kind of riding. The group
I do a fast flat ride with on Saturday mornings has never had a crash (in
about 3 years), because we (politely) kick out anyone who isn't suitable
after giving them a go.

However, climbing and descending hills is also fun, and while I
usually do hills rides with others, and we regroup at agreed points, we
don't ride in a tight formation. Sitting close behind another rider
when either climbing or descending is a bad idea IMHO.

As you say, you don't get to admire the scenery in pacelines, and it's best
to do the same route each time so that you become familiar with it, and the
lack of road visibility is less of a problem. It's also good to break them
up with a few sprint points and coasting spots where taking a drink and
stretching is safe.

--
Home page: http://members.westnet.com.au/mvw

Doug Taylor said:

Unfortunately for you, you must have been in pacelines with like
minded riders who didn't like to ride in pacelines or didn't know how.

Not always. Unfortunately, on club rides, you never know who is going
to show up. You may encounter a newcomer of unknown skills, or even a
known sketchy rider. Whoever shows up will ride with the group for
better or worse.

Definitely, some paceline rides are more enjoyable than others. But
even at their best, paceline rides require more concentration, less
ability to enjoy the scenery, and greater risk of a crash.

Quoted message said:

If you never were able to experience the group dynamic of common
effort, challenging yourself to stay on even if the effort is above
your personal comfort zone, and ending up with a huge endorphin high,
then I'm sorry for you.

I've been there, done that, and don't want to do it anymore. It's a
matter of personal choice and preference. If you've never enjoyed the
freedom and solitude of watching scenic countryside roll by as you
hammer along solo, I feel sorry for you.

Art Harris

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

Callistus Valerius said:

Reading the previous thread on pacelines, I wonder if others have had a
similar evolution on this issue as I have. When I first started riding, I
was weak, so I was always looking for easier ways to get down the road, and
I discovered the paceline. For years I use to think they were fun, doing
echelons, rotating pacelines, etc. But in those years I discovered all the
crashes I ever had, were in pacelines. Also as those paceline years went
by, I found out they took away from the fun I was seeking in riding. I
never saw the countryside, as we wizzed down the road, looking at only each
others asses, wearing our arms out with arm signals, and getting headaches
by keeping a close eye on strangers and the tedium of concentrating with the
limited view of the road. Then I woke up one morning and said to myself and
said "fu*k all of that. I now ride mostly solo, or if I ride with someone,
at least 20 yards apart. With this new approach I found out that the fun of
riding went way up, I now enjoy the road, the countryside, and now can
relax. I still do pacelines, in timed events, or in hurricaine winds, and
there is a place for it, but for a weekend rides, forget it.

Amen brother-too much testasterone(how do ya spell it?) in these 50 yo.
posseurs jamming around like they're training for that there tour in
france...

Hey...I resemble that remark. But all my testosterone is naturally
induced.

Chris

Art Harris said:

Doug Taylor said:

Unfortunately for you, you must have been in pacelines with like
minded riders who didn't like to ride in pacelines or didn't know how.

Not always. Unfortunately, on club rides, you never know who is going
to show up. You may encounter a newcomer of unknown skills, or even a
known sketchy rider. Whoever shows up will ride with the group for
better or worse.

Definitely, some paceline rides are more enjoyable than others. But
even at their best, paceline rides require more concentration, less
ability to enjoy the scenery, and greater risk of a crash.

Quoted message said:

If you never were able to experience the group dynamic of common
effort, challenging yourself to stay on even if the effort is above
your personal comfort zone, and ending up with a huge endorphin high,
then I'm sorry for you.

I've been there, done that, and don't want to do it anymore. It's a
matter of personal choice and preference. If you've never enjoyed the
freedom and solitude of watching scenic countryside roll by as you
hammer along solo, I feel sorry for you.

Art Harris

You should definately switch to decaf.

Chris

Callistus Valerius said:

never saw the countryside, as we wizzed down the road, looking at only each
others asses, wearing our arms out with arm signals, and getting headaches

Ah! but there is you problem! You chose to ride with men! The better
plan is to be the sole man in a paceline of Women! If your the sole
man in a paceline of women of average and above beauty you won't care
about roadside scenery, but the wonderful peaches ahead of you. Your
spead will also increase as you focus on thoes exalted objects.. the
Female bootie!

Bill Sornson said:

Chris Nelson said:

Art Harris said:

Doug Taylor wrote:
> Unfortunately for you, you must have been in pacelines with like
> minded riders who didn't like to ride in pacelines or didn't know
> how.

Not always. Unfortunately, on club rides, you never know who is going
to show up. You may encounter a newcomer of unknown skills, or even a
known sketchy rider. Whoever shows up will ride with the group for
better or worse.

Definitely, some paceline rides are more enjoyable than others. But
even at their best, paceline rides require more concentration, less
ability to enjoy the scenery, and greater risk of a crash.

> If you never were able to experience the group dynamic of common
> effort, challenging yourself to stay on even if the effort is above
> your personal comfort zone, and ending up with a huge endorphin
> high, then I'm sorry for you.

I've been there, done that, and don't want to do it anymore. It's a
matter of personal choice and preference. If you've never enjoyed the
freedom and solitude of watching scenic countryside roll by as you
hammer along solo, I feel sorry for you.

Art Harris

Quoted message said:

You should definately switch to decaf.

That /definitely/ makes no sense. (HINT: that's a line to indicate someone
is too intense; Art was talking about "watching scenic countryside roll by".
HTH)

You forgot about the "I feel sorry for you", which was slung back at
Doug after snipping the part where Doug says that he rides solo once a
week. What's up with that?

Chris

D'ohBoy said:

Callistus Valerius said:

Reading the previous thread on pacelines, I wonder if others have had a
similar evolution on this issue as I have. When I first started riding, I
was weak, so I was always looking for easier ways to get down the road, and
I discovered the paceline. For years I use to think they were fun, doing
echelons, rotating pacelines, etc. But in those years I discovered all the
crashes I ever had, were in pacelines. Also as those paceline years went
by, I found out they took away from the fun I was seeking in riding. I
never saw the countryside, as we wizzed down the road, looking at only each
others asses, wearing our arms out with arm signals, and getting headaches
by keeping a close eye on strangers and the tedium of concentrating with the
limited view of the road. Then I woke up one morning and said to myself and
said "fu*k all of that. I now ride mostly solo, or if I ride with someone,
at least 20 yards apart. With this new approach I found out that the fun of
riding went way up, I now enjoy the road, the countryside, and now can
relax. I still do pacelines, in timed events, or in hurricaine winds, and
there is a place for it, but for a weekend rides, forget it.

With ya on that! - f***ed up my back when I crashed riding in a tight
group two years ago (bye-bye season in late May), and crashed again
last year, this time I broke my collarbone, in a paceline (bye-bye
season in early July).

Plus this is the second year that I have failed to complete the Death
Ride. Really disappointed about that, especially after a significant
preparatory effort.

None of this is about enjoying cycling. Pacelines aren't fun (except
being fast), and certainly completing the Death Ride won't be enjoyable
(well, having done it will provide a sense of satisfaction but the
actual act will be painful).

Gotta get back to the joy!

I have been rinding in pacelines for 30 years with some of the worst
riders imaginable -- mostly recently due to a "director sportif" who
feels compelled to bring along unskilled riders on team training rides
to get them into racing. Long story. Anyway, you watch the rider
ahead of you. If he or she is a squirrel, then you drop back or go
around. You look over the shoulder of the rider ahead of you to see
the road, you anticipate speed changes at the begining of a climb,
etc., etc. I have never crashed in a JRA paceline -- only in races
because of wheel overlap, or a crash ahead or an obstacle. Also, if
you don't want to be in a paceline, don't -- its not required unless
you are racing.

Apart from racing, packs and pacelines can make long rides more fun --
both because of the society and because of the aerodynamic advantage.
I did a Seattle to Portland in about 8:40 including four stops -- a
little over 8 hours on bike for 203 miles, all because I was in a huge,
fast paceline dragging along a huge pack. It was a hoot. We did the
first 100 miles in under 4 hours. Very smooth, short pulls and a group
that wanted to work together with none of the bickering or strategy of
a race. The tail wind helped a lot, too. The ride really was more
collegial and more satisfying than any race I had every ridden. Even
more fun than the Death Ride, just not as pretty or challenging. -- Jay
Beattie.

Chris Nelson said:

Bill Sornson said:

Chris Nelson said:

Art Harris wrote:
> Doug Taylor wrote:
>> Unfortunately for you, you must have been in pacelines with like
>> minded riders who didn't like to ride in pacelines or didn't know
>> how.
>
> Not always. Unfortunately, on club rides, you never know who is
> going to show up. You may encounter a newcomer of unknown skills,
> or even a known sketchy rider. Whoever shows up will ride with the
> group for better or worse.
>
> Definitely, some paceline rides are more enjoyable than others. But
> even at their best, paceline rides require more concentration, less
> ability to enjoy the scenery, and greater risk of a crash.
>
>> If you never were able to experience the group dynamic of common
>> effort, challenging yourself to stay on even if the effort is
>> above your personal comfort zone, and ending up with a huge
>> endorphin high, then I'm sorry for you.
>
> I've been there, done that, and don't want to do it anymore. It's a
> matter of personal choice and preference. If you've never enjoyed
> the freedom and solitude of watching scenic countryside roll by as
> you hammer along solo, I feel sorry for you.
>
> Art Harris

Quoted message said:

You should definately switch to decaf.

That /definitely/ makes no sense. (HINT: that's a line to indicate
someone is too intense; Art was talking about "watching scenic
countryside roll by". HTH)

You forgot about the "I feel sorry for you", which was slung back at
Doug after snipping the part where Doug says that he rides solo once a
week. What's up with that?

Mix in some decaf.

Sandy said:

D'ohBoy a écrit :

Quoted message said:

Callistus Valerius said:

Reading the previous thread on pacelines, I wonder if others have had a
similar evolution on this issue as I have. When I first started riding, I
was weak, so I was always looking for easier ways to get down the road, and
I discovered the paceline. For years I use to think they were fun, doing
echelons, rotating pacelines, etc. But in those years I discovered all the
crashes I ever had, were in pacelines. Also as those paceline years went
by, I found out they took away from the fun I was seeking in riding. I
never saw the countryside, as we wizzed down the road, looking at onlyeach
others asses, wearing our arms out with arm signals, and getting headaches
by keeping a close eye on strangers and the tedium of concentrating with the
limited view of the road. Then I woke up one morning and said to myself and
said "fu*k all of that. I now ride mostly solo, or if I ride with someone,
at least 20 yards apart. With this new approach I found out that the fun of
riding went way up, I now enjoy the road, the countryside, and now can
relax. I still do pacelines, in timed events, or in hurricaine winds,and
there is a place for it, but for a weekend rides, forget it.

With ya on that! - f***ed up my back when I crashed riding in a tight
group two years ago (bye-bye season in late May), and crashed again
last year, this time I broke my collarbone, in a paceline (bye-bye
season in early July).

Plus this is the second year that I have failed to complete the Death
Ride. Really disappointed about that, especially after a significant
preparatory effort.

None of this is about enjoying cycling. Pacelines aren't fun (except
being fast), and certainly completing the Death Ride won't be enjoyable
(well, having done it will provide a sense of satisfaction but the
actual act will be painful).

Gotta get back to the joy!

D'ohBoy
"You took my joy, I want it back!" - Lucinda Williams, "Joy"

Just adding 2 cents -
1) the only time I wear a hel..t (crossing a boundary, sorry) is on
group rides.
2) pacelines are not group rides, but a subset, and I don't do them
unless I know the guys I am riding with.
3) yes, riding a bike for leisure is supposed to be enjoyable, not
another version of work. a paceline can be fun, but when it's not, I
drop off.

That is my approach as well. When I know they know what they are doing,
and I am in the mood for speed I enjoy riding in a paceline. If it
seems dangerous or is otherwise unpleasant (people yelling or some such
thing) I bail. Most of my riding/training is for long distance events
and the groups I ride with tend to be of the same sort of rider. Our
aim is for a super fluid, non-stressfull, almost slow-motion sort of
effect. Fast, not frantic.

That said, at least 85% of my riding is alone.

Joseph

Art Harris said:

Doug Taylor said:

Unfortunately for you, you must have been in pacelines with like
minded riders who didn't like to ride in pacelines or didn't know how.

Not always. Unfortunately, on club rides, you never know who is going
to show up. You may encounter a newcomer of unknown skills, or even a
known sketchy rider. Whoever shows up will ride with the group for
better or worse.

On our club rides, when it is echelon day, we split up into groups of
about 7-8 riders. Usually the fast regulars who know what they are
doing, the slow regulars who know what they are doing, and then
everyone else which includes the random show-ups, usually with 1 or 2
old hands to show them how to do it. The groups are pretty well
defined, and one has to "qualify" in a way to get into a group. As the
groups are pretty constant week to week, the trust level is pretty
high. This seems to work well.

Quoted message said:

Definitely, some paceline rides are more enjoyable than others. But
even at their best, paceline rides require more concentration, less
ability to enjoy the scenery, and greater risk of a crash.

Quoted message said:

If you never were able to experience the group dynamic of common
effort, challenging yourself to stay on even if the effort is above
your personal comfort zone, and ending up with a huge endorphin high,
then I'm sorry for you.

I've been there, done that, and don't want to do it anymore. It's a
matter of personal choice and preference. If you've never enjoyed the
freedom and solitude of watching scenic countryside roll by as you
hammer along solo, I feel sorry for you.

I enjoy both. Riding solo (no speedometer) allows my fantasy to reign
free. Man do I ride fast alone! And the scenery is better, indeed.

Joseph

Cobben Sence said:

Callistus Valerius said:

never saw the countryside, as we wizzed down the road, looking at only each
others asses, wearing our arms out with arm signals, and getting headaches

Ah! but there is you problem! You chose to ride with men! The better
plan is to be the sole man in a paceline of Women! If your the sole
man in a paceline of women of average and above beauty you won't care
about roadside scenery, but the wonderful peaches ahead of you. Your
spead will also increase as you focus on thoes exalted objects.. the
Female bootie!

It's easier to just become gay, than to recruit lots of attractive
women to cycling.

Joseph

Art Harris said:

Not always. Unfortunately, on club rides, you never know who is going
to show up. You may encounter a newcomer of unknown skills, or even a
known sketchy rider. Whoever shows up will ride with the group for
better or worse.

IMHO the regulars in a group should always feel entitled to tell someone
new or undesirable to sit at the back, or even drop off, if they're making
the ride uneven or dangerous.

Often it's best to split into two smaller groups and send these riders to
the slower one, where they won't struggle. It's rare that a group of a
dozen or more stays tight and smooth anyway.

--
Home page: http://members.westnet.com.au/mvw