Replace Revolution spokes on rear?

Tad Marko said:

Howdy!

I have a set of wheels that I had built last year at my LBS. The owner
there is very fond of 32 wheels laced 3x with DT Revolution spokes and
aluminium nipples. The front wheel stays true and in 3,500 km, I've
only had to touch it once, and then only because I was being picky. The
rear, though, is a little different. I've had to true it several times
and it's always a lot of work to get it to come out right. I'm thinking
of replacing the drive side spokes with 14/15 ga double butted spokes
(such as DT Competitions).

Will I see any improvement? Should I leave the aluminium nipples or
replace the drive side ones with brass?

The type of spoke, or nipple material, as such, will determine how round
and true the wheel will remain. Other elementary wheel-building skills
(evenness of tension, stress relieving, other stuff discussed at length
many times on this NG, earlier) will determine how much touch-up
maintenance the wheel will require throughout its lifetime.

I've had aluminium nipples on both good and bad wheels. I've had
straight-gauge spokes on both good and bad wheels.

That said, if you use brass nipples, they will not degrade every time
you touch up the wheel.

I think you should take the back wheel back to your LBS and explain that
they've built you an unreliable wheel. Ask them to do the job right this
time, with whatever materials that provide reliability.

.. . . assuming that you're not unreasonably heavy or are riding your
wheels consistently on very bad roads . . .

/Robert

Robert wrote:

--snip---

Quoted message said:

The type of spoke, or nipple material, as such, will determine how round
and true the wheel will remain.

---snip---

Oops.

Should be "The type of spoke, or nipple material, as such, will NOT
determine how round and true the wheel will remain".

Apologies.

/Robert

Tad Marko said:

rear, though, is a little different. I've had to true it several times
and it's always a lot of work to get it to come out right.

Please describe which spokes are coming loose (left, right?). Is the
tension even on each side? Do you have any way to measure the tension?

BTW... the spoke stiffness seems to have a relativley small effect on
the lateral of the wheel:
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/rinard/wheel/index.htm

So I would suspect that the wheels were poorly built, rather than it
being an issue with the spokes being too light... uneven tension, low
tension, not stress relieved, etc. It is more difficult to get thin
spokes like revs up to a high tension (which is required on the drive
side), so possibly the tension is too low. It is also possible that the
spokes "settled in" early on, and when you retensioned you made the
tension uneven... just guessing, of course.

What rims are they?

Tad Marko said:

Howdy!

I have a set of wheels that I had built last year at my LBS. The owner
there is very fond of 32 wheels laced 3x with DT Revolution spokes and
aluminium nipples. The front wheel stays true and in 3,500 km, I've
only had to touch it once, and then only because I was being picky. The
rear, though, is a little different. I've had to true it several times
and it's always a lot of work to get it to come out right. I'm thinking
of replacing the drive side spokes with 14/15 ga double butted spokes
(such as DT Competitions).

Will I see any improvement? Should I leave the aluminium nipples or
replace the drive side ones with brass?

Thanks,
Tad

is this a dished wheel? if so, i wouldn't use revos on the drive side
rear - simply too elastic.

for the future, make sure the spoke tension is correct and consider the
use of threadlock. i have a mavic cosmos rear that routinely has the
non-drive side rears go so slack you can hear them rattle - but the
wheel stays dead true because nylocked nipples prevent unscrewing.

Tad Marko said:

Howdy!

I have a set of wheels that I had built last year at my LBS. The owner
there is very fond of 32 wheels laced 3x with DT Revolution spokes and
aluminium nipples. The front wheel stays true and in 3,500 km, I've
only had to touch it once, and then only because I was being picky. The
rear, though, is a little different. I've had to true it several times
and it's always a lot of work to get it to come out right. I'm thinking
of replacing the drive side spokes with 14/15 ga double butted spokes
(such as DT Competitions).

Will I see any improvement? Should I leave the aluminium nipples or
replace the drive side ones with brass?

Thanks,
Tad

Thin center section spokes just do not support a rear wheel rim well
enough, even for very light, like 'buck 25' riders...Aluminum nipps are
dum too. You add maybe 25 grams or so with 14/15 and brass nipps but
have a substancially stronger wheel...methinks the owner of the LBS
needs to get back to 'conventional wheels built well' rather than
whizbangery to sell his wheels. Reliable wheels make for great reps as
a wheel builder, poorly designed wheels, even if built well, that go to
hell quickly, make for a bad rep...kinda like the French bridge
builder-

If the wheel has gone outta true drastically, the rim is deformed to
the pount that just new spokes of 14/15 probably won't help the
reliability.

Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote (in part):

Quoted message said:

Thin center section spokes just do not support a rear wheel rim well
enough, even for very light, like 'buck 25' riders....

Depends on the # of spokes: I have some 36 hole wheels (OP rims)
radially laced with 14/17 in the front and rear ND (rear DS is 14/15
3x) and they are rock solid under my 200+ lbs (early season 220 lbs).

Generalizations are correct generally but just plain wrong,
specifically ;-)

Peter

D'ohBoy said:

Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote (in part):

Quoted message said:

Thin center section spokes just do not support a rear wheel rim well
enough, even for very light, like 'buck 25' riders....

Depends on the # of spokes: I have some 36 hole wheels (OP rims)
radially laced with 14/17 in the front and rear ND (rear DS is 14/15
3x) and they are rock solid under my 200+ lbs (early season 220 lbs).

Generalizations are correct generally but just plain wrong,
specifically ;-)

Peter

You can go ahead and build and use these but as a bike shop owner, that
must stand behind his wheels absolutely, I will not do Revs on the left
of any wheel cuz ya know, it does nothing except be less reliable than
14/15 on the NDS...I generalized and responded to the OPs question that
Revs on the rear are a bad idea...his being Revs both sides, but left
side revs or radial and revs or other combos answer no question, solve
no problem with respect to a standard 14/15/3cross...wheel.

quote='Qui si parla Campagnolo'D'ohBoy said:

Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote (in part):

Quoted message said:

Thin center section spokes just do not support a rear wheel rim well
enough, even for very light, like 'buck 25' riders....

Depends on the # of spokes: I have some 36 hole wheels (OP rims)
radially laced with 14/17 in the front and rear ND (rear DS is 14/15
3x) and they are rock solid under my 200+ lbs (early season 220 lbs).

Generalizations are correct generally but just plain wrong,
specifically ;-)

Peter

You can go ahead and build and use these but as a bike shop owner, that
must stand behind his wheels absolutely, I will not do Revs on the left
of any wheel cuz ya know, it does nothing except be less reliable than
14/15 on the NDS...I generalized and responded to the OPs question that
Revs on the rear are a bad idea...his being Revs both sides, but left
side revs or radial and revs or other combos answer no question, solve
no problem with respect to a standard 14/15/3cross...wheel.[/QUOTE]
Peter and I agree on most things.
However, this is one area that I don't agree.
I think that 14/17 DB spokes on left rear solve two issues:
1. Keeps left rear spokes from going slack under higher loads
2. Makes the rear wheel slightly lighter.
Excel Sports Boulder builds quite a selection of rear wheels that way. I am sure they need to stand behind them.
For some measurements and factual information about wheel stiffness check out the following sites:
sheldonbrown.comindex.htmOpen ↗
especially note Item 7 where the difference in stiffness comparing Revolution to straight 14 g in a wheel is 11%
sheldonbrown.comdata.htmOpen ↗
is Damon Rinards chart of measurements on many wheels.

Tad Marko said:

Howdy!

I have a set of wheels that I had built last year at my LBS. The owner
there is very fond of 32 wheels laced 3x with DT Revolution spokes and
aluminium nipples. The front wheel stays true and in 3,500 km, I've
only had to touch it once, and then only because I was being picky. The
rear, though, is a little different. I've had to true it several times
and it's always a lot of work to get it to come out right. I'm thinking
of replacing the drive side spokes with 14/15 ga double butted spokes
(such as DT Competitions).

Will I see any improvement? Should I leave the aluminium nipples or
replace the drive side ones with brass?

Revolutions on the rear are *fussy*. As Peter says, he won't use revs
on the rear. I've had satisfactory results, but with lots of extra
care. Note: I built these as an experiment, since they are a bit
exotic for the "common wisdom", to see how long they held up. Currently
they are at 16,000 miles, but with one rebuild at 14,000 miles (see below).

Bottom line: I wouldn't recommend these spokes for rear wheels unless
you trust your builder very much, and the builder is willing to put in
the extra work/fussiness they will require - probably few builders will be.

1) 36 spokes, and I weigh ~170 lbs.
2) 15-17 on non-drive side, 14-17 on drive side, aluminum nipples
3) spoke threads and rim nipple beds carefully greased
4) this bike is a dry-day only bike
5) Use the Sharpie-marker trick to carefully avoid twisting the spokes
while tightening (mark one side and visually check that you have removed
any twist after each spoke adjustment).
6) Loosen non-drive side spokes and tighten drive-side to approximately
their final positions, then tighten non-drive sides (helps get high
tension without twisting the spokes to the breaking point).
7) Stress-relieve

Oh, and
8) Use a very high quality spoke wrench to give the fragile alu nipples
lots of support.

Using #1-4&7 I got about 14,000 miles, with three broken non-drive-side
spokes. At the third one, I replaced the non-drive-side spokes (again
with 15-17 rev's) and used #5,6 also to get the wheel to a higher
tension. I think the non-drive-side spokes were too loose previously.
So far so good. The wheel stays nicely true.

#2,6 help to get the non-drive-side spokes tight enough that they don't
periodically slacken and fatigue.

#3,4 seems to have beaten the seizing problem others have reported with
aluminum spokes.

#5 made the rebuild go far more smoothly and quickly - I wasn't causing
more problems than I was fixing each time I turned a nipple.

Good luck,

Mark

daveornee said:

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

D'ohBoy said:

Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote (in part):

>
> Thin center section spokes just do not support a rear wheel rim

well

Quoted message said:

> enough, even for very light, like 'buck 25' riders....

Depends on the # of spokes: I have some 36 hole wheels (OP rims)
radially laced with 14/17 in the front and rear ND (rear DS is 14/15
3x) and they are rock solid under my 200+ lbs (early season 220

lbs).

Quoted message said:

Generalizations are correct generally but just plain wrong,
specifically ;-)

Peter

You can go ahead and build and use these but as a bike shop owner,
that
must stand behind his wheels absolutely, I will not do Revs on the
left
of any wheel cuz ya know, it does nothing except be less reliable than
14/15 on the NDS...I generalized and responded to the OPs question
that
Revs on the rear are a bad idea...his being Revs both sides, but left
side revs or radial and revs or other combos answer no question, solve
no problem with respect to a standard 14/15/3cross...wheel.

Peter and I agree on most things.
However, this is one area that I don't agree.
I think that 14/17 DB spokes on left rear solve two issues:
1. Keeps left rear spokes from going slack under higher loads
2. Makes the rear wheel slightly lighter.
Excel Sports Boulder builds quite a selection of rear wheels that way.
I am sure they need to stand behind them.
For some measurements and factual information about wheel stiffness
check out the following sites:
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/rinard/wheel/index.htm
especially note Item 7 where the difference in stiffness comparing
Revolution to straight 14 g in a wheel is 11%
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/rinard/wheel/data.htm
is Damon Rinards chart of measurements on many wheels.

--
daveornee

I guess since you brought it up...

First, I gotta wonder why we true so many wheels built at Excel?.....

Second, since I do not use thin spokes on the rear on the kick stand
side, I see no problems with spokes getting loose, spokes breaking or
the wheel goi9ng outta true...so gotta once more ask why tell the
customer they need to spend the $ to solve a non problem with a wheel
we build with 14/15 all around?