T-Mobile ripped, ouch

Did you read that report where the T-Mobile TEAM had decided their OWN
strategy? Didn't their actions LOOK like a strategy and tactics designed by
a committee?

Quoted message said:

Does T-Mobile get the Moron's R Us award this year, or is it perpetual?
I vote they are hopeless and have been.

T-Mobile is the equivalent of the NY Yankees having a bad year. Except that,
once in a while, the NY Yankees actually win.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

"Bill C" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
http://eurosport.com/cycling/tour-de-france/2006/sport_sto931939.shtml
Selected quotes:

What the French legends think

Bernard Thévenet (winner in 1975 and 1977): "Look at the 28 minutes
gifted to Oscar Pereiro. I think that on that day, the biggest loser
was T-Mobile. They were the team with the biggest chance of winning the
Tour. They even made another mistake on the day that Landis cracked.
They should have ridden harder and taken two or three more minutes from
him."

Laurent Fignon (winner in 1983 and 1984): "Landis benefited from the
relative weakness of his rivals. How did they let him take nine minutes
on the way to Morzine, without reacting? All that seems absurd to me,
especially with regard to T-Mobile who, on a technical level, have not
met the standard."

Richard Virenque (seven-time polka dot jersey, twice podium finisher):
"Landis was the rider who wanted to win the race the most. T-Mobile had
the keys to fight him but they were too passive."

Charley Mottet (three-time stage winner in early 1990s): "If T-Mobile
had ridden the course better, Klöden would have won the Tour."

Does T-Mobile get the Moron's R Us award this year, or is it perpetual?
I vote they are hopeless and have been.
Bill C

in message <[email hidden]>, Bill C

(') said:

http://eurosport.com/cycling/tour-de-france/2006/sport_sto931939.shtml
Selected quotes:

What the French legends think

Bernard Thévenet (winner in 1975 and 1977): [snip]

Laurent Fignon (winner in 1983 and 1984): [snip]

Richard Virenque (seven-time polka dot jersey, twice podium finisher):

[snip]

Quoted message said:

Charley Mottet (three-time stage winner in early 1990s): [snip]

Does T-Mobile get the Moron's R Us award this year, or is it perpetual?
I vote they are hopeless and have been.

What upsets me is that every one of these criticisms could also - and
should also - be pointed at CSC. Over the past few years I've supported
CSC at least partly because I've thought that Riis was the smartest DS
out there. Well, he didn't look it this year. Landis may have won the
Tour on stage 17, but that's just another way of saying CSC (and
T-Mobile) lost in on stage 17. They didn't have to. They basically just
rolled over and let Phonak tickle their tummies.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
Das Internet is nicht fuer gefingerclicken und giffengrabben... Ist
nicht fuer gewerken bei das dumpkopfen. Das mausklicken sichtseeren
keepen das bandwit-spewin hans in das pockets muss; relaxen und
watchen das cursorblinken. -- quoted from the jargon file

"Simon Brooke" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

in message <[email hidden]>, Bill C
([email hidden]'😉 wrote:

What upsets me is that every one of these criticisms could also - and
should also - be pointed at CSC. Over the past few years I've supported
CSC at least partly because I've thought that Riis was the smartest DS
out there. Well, he didn't look it this year. Landis may have won the
Tour on stage 17, but that's just another way of saying CSC (and
T-Mobile) lost in on stage 17. They didn't have to. They basically just
rolled over and let Phonak tickle their tummies.

Riis admitted that they should have chased harder, but when Landis took off,
he just went too fast. And it wasn't until he had a pretty good gap, that
Riis saw that Caisse couldn't (or wouldn't) take time on him. He didn't want
to sacrifise the few riders he had left by chasing Landis too early. When
they finally got around to it, they took quite a lot of time on him, but at
that point T-Mob contributed with 1 rider.

I think T-mob was the loser team. They should have crushed Landis the day he
bonked, and kept him in a tight leash the next day. Klöden could have taken
the victory by crushing Perreiro in the TT

HB

HBJensen said:

"Simon Brooke" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

in message <[email hidden]>, Bill C
([email hidden]'😉 wrote:

What upsets me is that every one of these criticisms could also - and
should also - be pointed at CSC. Over the past few years I've supported
CSC at least partly because I've thought that Riis was the smartest DS
out there. Well, he didn't look it this year. Landis may have won the
Tour on stage 17, but that's just another way of saying CSC (and
T-Mobile) lost in on stage 17. They didn't have to. They basically just
rolled over and let Phonak tickle their tummies.

Riis admitted that they should have chased harder, but when Landis took off,
he just went too fast. And it wasn't until he had a pretty good gap, that
Riis saw that Caisse couldn't (or wouldn't) take time on him. He didn't want
to sacrifise the few riders he had left by chasing Landis too early. When
they finally got around to it, they took quite a lot of time on him, but at
that point T-Mob contributed with 1 rider.

I think T-mob was the loser team. They should have crushed Landis the day he
bonked, and kept him in a tight leash the next day. Klöden could have taken
the victory by crushing Perreiro in the TT

Yeah, but maybe Sastre would've taken out even more time out of a more
tired Kloeden on stage 17 then - too much time to take back in the TT?
Maybe Perreiro too?

As to crushing Landis on his bad day, I think they did that already, not
enough in hindsight, but who could've expected that ride the next day?

Ernst Noch wrote:
:: HBJensen wrote:
::: "Simon Brooke" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
::: news:[email hidden]...
:::: in message <[email hidden]>,
:::: Bill C ([email hidden]'😉 wrote:
::::
::::
:::: What upsets me is that every one of these criticisms could also -
:::: and should also - be pointed at CSC. Over the past few years I've
:::: supported CSC at least partly because I've thought that Riis was
:::: the smartest DS out there. Well, he didn't look it this year.
:::: Landis may have won the Tour on stage 17, but that's just another
:::: way of saying CSC (and T-Mobile) lost in on stage 17. They didn't
:::: have to. They basically just rolled over and let Phonak tickle
:::: their tummies.
::::
:::
::: Riis admitted that they should have chased harder, but when Landis
::: took off, he just went too fast. And it wasn't until he had a
::: pretty good gap, that Riis saw that Caisse couldn't (or wouldn't)
::: take time on him. He didn't want to sacrifise the few riders he had
::: left by chasing Landis too early. When they finally got around to
::: it, they took quite a lot of time on him, but at that point T-Mob
::: contributed with 1 rider.
:::
::: I think T-mob was the loser team. They should have crushed Landis
::: the day he bonked, and kept him in a tight leash the next day.
::: Klöden could have taken the victory by crushing Perreiro in the TT
::
:: Yeah, but maybe Sastre would've taken out even more time out of a
:: more tired Kloeden on stage 17 then - too much time to take back in
:: the TT? Maybe Perreiro too?
::
:: As to crushing Landis on his bad day, I think they did that already,
:: not enough in hindsight, but who could've expected that ride the
:: next day?

I think it's real easy to talk about what should have been done when you
WEREN'T riding in the race!

🙂

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Riis admitted that they should have chased harder, but when Landis took off,
he just went too fast. And it wasn't until he had a pretty good gap, that
Riis saw that Caisse couldn't (or wouldn't) take time on him. He didn't want
to sacrifise the few riders he had left by chasing Landis too early. When
they finally got around to it, they took quite a lot of time on him, but at
that point T-Mob contributed with 1 rider.

I think T-mob was the loser team. They should have crushed Landis the day he
bonked, and kept him in a tight leash the next day. Klöden could have taken
the victory by crushing Perreiro in the TT

Yeah, but maybe Sastre would've taken out even more time out of a more
tired Kloeden on stage 17 then - too much time to take back in the TT?
Maybe Perreiro too?

As to crushing Landis on his bad day, I think they did that already, not
enough in hindsight, but who could've expected that ride the next day?

Anyone who watched the climb to La Toussuire will see that TMO went as
fast as they could, I don't think Kloden was having a great day, in
fact Perreiro took off at the end.

"HBJensen" <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

I think T-mob was the loser team.

Say what you will, but T-Mobile got the podium and the team classification.
At the end of the day, they are less a loser team than CSC. I find that the
definition of 'loser' is changed to whatever position T-Mobile is currently
in.

Quoted message said:

They should have crushed Landis the
day he bonked, and kept him in a tight leash the next day.

So should CSC.

Quoted message said:

Klöden
could have taken the victory by crushing Perreiro in the TT

HB

Mike Jacoubowsky said:

Quoted message said:

Does T-Mobile get the Moron's R Us award this year, or is it perpetual?
I vote they are hopeless and have been.

T-Mobile is the equivalent of the NY Yankees having a bad year. Except that,
once in a while, the NY Yankees actually win.

That's true once in awhile the Yankees win even when they are having a
bad year.

Roger Zoul said:

I think it's real easy to talk about what should have been done when you
WEREN'T riding in the race!

🙂

Dumbass,

You're absolutely right - tactics and strategy should never be
discussed after the race, especially when you lose, unless you were
riding the race. Because constructive (or destructive, this is RBR
after all...) criticism NEVER helps anyone.

In that light, please shut up. Your criticism of our criticism is not
helping.

Dumbass said:

Landis thought the peleton pace was too slow

Dumbass, it's "peloton".
Sorry to intrude in a legitimate cycling discussion,

--
E. Dronkert

Jonathan v.d. Sluis said:

"HBJensen" <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

I think T-mob was the loser team.

Say what you will, but T-Mobile got the podium and the team classification.
At the end of the day, they are less a loser team than CSC. I find that the
definition of 'loser' is changed to whatever position T-Mobile is currently
in.

Quoted message said:

They should have crushed Landis the
day he bonked, and kept him in a tight leash the next day.

So should CSC.

I think both teams made the same mistake in that they were racing
almost exactly the way they have in the past few years, totally
defensively and negatively, just trying to keep it close until they
could get a small gap and defend it. That's worked well for Disco with
a dominant leader and team, it's been the same result in the past for
both T-Mob and CSC, though I think both were more agressive early on in
past years, but missing key pieces could account for that.
Landis going that far down was a total write-off and should have been
no factor at all, because none of the GC types have been really
agressive since Hinault. It just "coudn't" happen in their minds, and
they let it happen.
Out of desperation, Landis who had no intention of being aggressive
either, had to do something amazing to get back into it and it took
them all by surprise. The interesting thing to see will be if this has
any effect at all on the way the Vuelta is raced this year.
It's been said over and over that making that kind of attack stick was
impossible, and that being agressive was a sure way to lose, Landis
disproved both for the first time in decades.
This should make teams more aggressive about opening gaps as much as
they can, any time they can, and being willing to take some risks to do
it, or it may make them all try to adapt the Disco model of a really
strong team and rider with a single goal. There you've got to pick the
right one though, and that's a lot riskier than being aggressive. You
get one shot to try and pick the guy who can cover everything, wont
have a bad day, and can gain a gap somewhere. Lots of eggs to have in
one huge basket. Look at the bet on Levi. Didn't work out too well, did
it?
I'm hoping that things continue with the more open style we saw
through most of the Tour even before Landis went off.
Everything I see says T-Mobile is falling apart internally, wish I was
still there to hear what's going on inside, but this sounds messy
enough that they probably wont be talking until it's sorted out.
Bill C

"Bill C" <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Jonathan v.d. Sluis said:

"HBJensen" <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

I think T-mob was the loser team.

Say what you will, but T-Mobile got the podium and the team
classification. At the end of the day, they are less a loser team
than CSC. I find that the definition of 'loser' is changed to
whatever position T-Mobile is currently in.

Quoted message said:

They should have crushed Landis the
day he bonked, and kept him in a tight leash the next day.

So should CSC.

I think both teams made the same mistake in that they were racing
almost exactly the way they have in the past few years, totally
defensively and negatively, just trying to keep it close until they
could get a small gap and defend it. That's worked well for Disco with
a dominant leader and team, it's been the same result in the past for
both T-Mob and CSC, though I think both were more agressive early on
in past years, but missing key pieces could account for that.
Landis going that far down was a total write-off and should have been
no factor at all, because none of the GC types have been really
agressive since Hinault.

Pantani, perhaps Lemond and Chiapucci... There's bound to be more.

Quoted message said:

It just "coudn't" happen in their minds, and
they let it happen.
Out of desperation, Landis who had no intention of being aggressive
either, had to do something amazing to get back into it and it took
them all by surprise. The interesting thing to see will be if this has
any effect at all on the way the Vuelta is raced this year.
It's been said over and over that making that kind of attack stick
was
impossible, and that being agressive was a sure way to lose, Landis
disproved both for the first time in decades.

And we should thank him for that, although I think 'decades' is a bit over
the top. The scale at which Landis succeeded was unique - in terms of
places gained and distance at which he attacked, the basic principle was
not. Pantani attacked with pretty much the same gusto (if not panache). GC
types have always attacked early (i.e. before the last climb), we just
needed to be reminded that even such a very early attack can still be a
viable way to improve one's chances at winning the overall. The idea had
taken hold that the early break is for lesser riders.

Quoted message said:

This should make teams more aggressive about opening gaps as much as
they can, any time they can, and being willing to take some risks to
do it, or it may make them all try to adapt the Disco model of a
really strong team and rider with a single goal. There you've got to
pick the right one though, and that's a lot riskier than being
aggressive. You get one shot to try and pick the guy who can cover
everything, wont have a bad day, and can gain a gap somewhere. Lots of
eggs to have in one huge basket. Look at the bet on Levi. Didn't work
out too well, did it?
I'm hoping that things continue with the more open style we saw
through most of the Tour even before Landis went off.
Everything I see says T-Mobile is falling apart internally, wish I
was
still there to hear what's going on inside, but this sounds messy
enough that they probably wont be talking until it's sorted out.
Bill C

Ernst Noch said:

HBJensen said:

"Simon Brooke" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

in message <[email hidden]>, Bill C
([email hidden]'😉 wrote:

What upsets me is that every one of these criticisms could also - and
should also - be pointed at CSC. Over the past few years I've supported
CSC at least partly because I've thought that Riis was the smartest DS
out there. Well, he didn't look it this year. Landis may have won the
Tour on stage 17, but that's just another way of saying CSC (and
T-Mobile) lost in on stage 17. They didn't have to. They basically just
rolled over and let Phonak tickle their tummies.

Riis admitted that they should have chased harder, but when Landis took off,
he just went too fast. And it wasn't until he had a pretty good gap, that
Riis saw that Caisse couldn't (or wouldn't) take time on him. He didn't want
to sacrifise the few riders he had left by chasing Landis too early. When
they finally got around to it, they took quite a lot of time on him, but at
that point T-Mob contributed with 1 rider.

I think T-mob was the loser team. They should have crushed Landis the day he
bonked, and kept him in a tight leash the next day. Klöden could have taken
the victory by crushing Perreiro in the TT

Yeah, but maybe Sastre would've taken out even more time out of a more
tired Kloeden on stage 17 then - too much time to take back in the TT?
Maybe Perreiro too?

As to crushing Landis on his bad day, I think they did that already, not
enough in hindsight, but who could've expected that ride the next day?

Ever follow chess? Even the highest grand masters play their openings to prevent
the "fools mate."

They should've and could've locked that door before it ever got opened.

Ron

On 26 Jul 2006 07:17:26 -0700, "Bill C" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Everything I see says T-Mobile is falling apart internally, wish I was
still there to hear what's going on inside,

Are you Ken Linvingston in hiding ? ;-)

Quoted message said:

but this sounds messy
enough that they probably wont be talking until it's sorted out.
Bill C

Tom Kunich said:

Did you read that report where the T-Mobile TEAM had decided their OWN
strategy? Didn't their actions LOOK like a strategy and tactics designed by
a committee?

A camel is a racehorse (designed by committee). They got themselves
one hell of an ugly camel. No wonder Ullrich could never win again.

Simon Brooke said:

in message <[email hidden]>, Bill C

(') said:

http://eurosport.com/cycling/tour-de-france/2006/sport_sto931939.shtml
Selected quotes:

What the French legends think

Bernard Thévenet (winner in 1975 and 1977): [snip]

Laurent Fignon (winner in 1983 and 1984): [snip]

Richard Virenque (seven-time polka dot jersey, twice podium finisher):

[snip]

Quoted message said:

Charley Mottet (three-time stage winner in early 1990s): [snip]

Does T-Mobile get the Moron's R Us award this year, or is it perpetual?
I vote they are hopeless and have been.

What upsets me is that every one of these criticisms could also - and
should also - be pointed at CSC. Over the past few years I've supported
CSC at least partly because I've thought that Riis was the smartest DS
out there. Well, he didn't look it this year. Landis may have won the
Tour on stage 17, but that's just another way of saying CSC (and
T-Mobile) lost in on stage 17. They didn't have to. They basically just
rolled over and let Phonak tickle their tummies.

Not to the same extent, though, because T-Mobile still had eight guys
racing. CSC was down to, what, six? And one of those was O'Grady with
a fractured vertebra? T-Mobile gets more of the share of the blame, in
my book.

~bob

In article
<[email hidden]>,

Bill C said:

Out of desperation, Landis who had no intention of being aggressive
either, had to do something amazing to get back into it and it took
them all by surprise. The interesting thing to see will be if this has
any effect at all on the way the Vuelta is raced this year.

It was not a surprise. `Everybody' knew that Phonak
planned to attack at dawn, and everybody followed their
own plan. Mark the attack, and when the attack became so
aggressive that the probability of success was very small,
to treat it like any other.

Speculation: they figured Landis could reach the
breakaway, then he would join the breakaway. Then they
could keep the breakaway on a leash and be in control of
the time gain that Landis could achieve.

Other evidence that it was not a surprise is that Landis
was the boss at Paris-Nice.

--
Michael Press

bob sullivan wrote:
:: Simon Brooke wrote:
::: in message <[email hidden]>,
::: Bill C ([email hidden]'😉 wrote:
:::
:::: http://eurosport.com/cycling/tour-de-france/2006/sport_sto931939.shtml
:::: Selected quotes:
::::
:::: What the French legends think
::::
:::: Bernard Thévenet (winner in 1975 and 1977): [snip]
::::
:::: Laurent Fignon (winner in 1983 and 1984): [snip]
::::
:::: Richard Virenque (seven-time polka dot jersey, twice podium
:::: finisher):
:::
::: [snip]
:::
:::: Charley Mottet (three-time stage winner in early 1990s): [snip]
::::
:::: Does T-Mobile get the Moron's R Us award this year, or is it
:::: perpetual? I vote they are hopeless and have been.
:::
::: What upsets me is that every one of these criticisms could also -
::: and should also - be pointed at CSC. Over the past few years I've
::: supported CSC at least partly because I've thought that Riis was
::: the smartest DS out there. Well, he didn't look it this year.
::: Landis may have won the Tour on stage 17, but that's just another
::: way of saying CSC (and T-Mobile) lost in on stage 17. They didn't
::: have to. They basically just rolled over and let Phonak tickle
::: their tummies.
::
:: Not to the same extent, though, because T-Mobile still had eight guys
:: racing. CSC was down to, what, six? And one of those was O'Grady with
:: a fractured vertebra? T-Mobile gets more of the share of the blame,
:: in my book.
::
:: ~bob

Blame? Why blame? Neither team deserved to win. There is no blame in not
being a winner. It just is.