Landis Won Without a Team

"Ned Buntline" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:eyKwg.2916$qZ2.1401@trndny01...

Quoted message said:

In my mind, the most amazing thing about Landis' win this year is - unlike
Armstrong - he did it on his own. Most of the tour he had no team -
certainly not in the mountains. He is very gracious when talking to the
press about Phonak, but I think that he'd be better served by an
organization who will back him up with some support on the road.

He could have had a stronger team but even so Phonak is in second place in
the team standings. They performed when they had to, as at the beginning of
stage 16. It seems to me that with a cleaner Tour, the advantage of a team
riding like Discovery in past years is not as great in the mountains.
Nicely retro, eh?

"Ned Buntline" <[email hidden]> a écrit dans le message de news:
eyKwg.2916$qZ2.1401@trndny01...

Quoted message said:

In my mind, the most amazing thing about Landis' win this year is - unlike
Armstrong - he did it on his own. Most of the tour he had no team -
certainly not in the mountains. He is very gracious when talking to the
press about Phonak, but I think that he'd be better served by an
organization who will back him up with some support on the road.

he was lucky that there wasnt any team time trile this year

in message <eyKwg.2916$qZ2.1401@trndny01>, Ned Buntline

(') said:

In my mind, the most amazing thing about Landis' win this year is -
unlike Armstrong - he did it on his own. Most of the tour he had no
team - certainly not in the mountains.

That's a little unkind to Axel Merckx. But, on the whole, you're right.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; not so much a refugee from reality, more a bogus
;; asylum seeker

Ned Buntline said:

In my mind, the most amazing thing about Landis' win this year is - unlike
Armstrong - he did it on his own. Most of the tour he had no team -
certainly not in the mountains. He is very gracious when talking to the
press about Phonak, but I think that he'd be better served by an
organization who will back him up with some support on the road.

Nobody had a team this year. Except maybe Klöden.

Joseph

B. Lafferty said:

"Ned Buntline" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:eyKwg.2916$qZ2.1401@trndny01...

Quoted message said:

In my mind, the most amazing thing about Landis' win this year is - unlike
Armstrong - he did it on his own. Most of the tour he had no team -
certainly not in the mountains. He is very gracious when talking to the
press about Phonak, but I think that he'd be better served by an
organization who will back him up with some support on the road.

He could have had a stronger team but even so Phonak is in second place in
the team standings. They performed when they had to, as at the beginning of
stage 16. It seems to me that with a cleaner Tour, the advantage of a team
riding like Discovery in past years is not as great in the mountains.
Nicely retro, eh?

So, it the drop from 99% cheating to 85% that changed EVERYTHING?

The threshold for a competitive tour is what, 90% or so cheating?

Pierre wrote:

"he was lucky that there wasnt any team time trile this year"

I absolutely agree.

B. Lafferty wrote:

"Nicely retro, eh? "

Ha! That's what I was thinking. I picture the tour in the early 1900s with
a lonely guy on a winding dirt road in the alps, tire slung around his neck
and covered with mud.

Simon Brooke wrote:

"That's a little unkind to Axel Merckx."

I'm not so sure. It seemed that most of the time Landis wanted Merckx, he
had to drop back to get him.

Ned Buntline said:

In my mind, the most amazing thing about Landis' win this year is - unlike
Armstrong - he did it on his own. Most of the tour he had no team -
certainly not in the mountains. He is very gracious when talking to the
press about Phonak, but I think that he'd be better served by an
organization who will back him up with some support on the road.

Well, this was the last TDF for Flandis anyways.

--
"If there are people inside our country who are talking with al Qaeda, we want
to know about it, because we will not sit back and wait to be hit again."
~President George W. Bush

Ned Buntline said:

In my mind, the most amazing thing about Landis' win this year is - unlike
Armstrong - he did it on his own. Most of the tour he had no team -
certainly not in the mountains. He is very gracious when talking to the
press about Phonak, but I think that he'd be better served by an
organization who will back him up with some support on the road.

Dumbass -

LANCE had the dominating team for his later wins, but the first few
wins were accomplished w/ a relatively weak team.

thanks,

K. Gringioni.

"Tim Lines" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

B. Lafferty said:

"Ned Buntline" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:eyKwg.2916$qZ2.1401@trndny01...

Quoted message said:

In my mind, the most amazing thing about Landis' win this year is -
unlike Armstrong - he did it on his own. Most of the tour he had no
team - certainly not in the mountains. He is very gracious when talking
to the press about Phonak, but I think that he'd be better served by an
organization who will back him up with some support on the road.

He could have had a stronger team but even so Phonak is in second place
in the team standings. They performed when they had to, as at the
beginning of stage 16. It seems to me that with a cleaner Tour, the
advantage of a team riding like Discovery in past years is not as great
in the mountains. Nicely retro, eh?

So, it the drop from 99% cheating to 85% that changed EVERYTHING?

The threshold for a competitive tour is what, 90% or so cheating?

I'm not the only one saying that Operation P and its fallout have caused
this Tour to be significantly different. By what percentage has doping been
reduced this year? Who knows. The percentage doesn't matter anyway. What
became clear was that the biggest dopers were either out of the race or
afraid to follow the usual plan. The result was a great Tour this year sans
the robots.

B. Lafferty said:

I'm not the only one saying that Operation P and its fallout have caused
this Tour to be significantly different. By what percentage has doping been
reduced this year? Who knows. The percentage doesn't matter anyway. What
became clear was that the biggest dopers were either out of the race or
afraid to follow the usual plan.

No, logically that's not clear at all. I have the same feeling about it
as you are voicing here, but still let's not jump to conclusions.

Fact: The best riders (measured by their previous results) were not
participating.
Fact: Three of these were not participating because they are linked to
doping.
Fact: All remaining riders have shown no "robot like" riding in the
past, and also not in this tour.

Thought experiment: What if Basso and/or Ullrich weren't doping? It's
still not proven yet. Could we explain the "non-robot" tour anyway?

The answer is, yes we could, because if you are a robot, with or without
doping, you win when faced with mere humans. The only thing we know for
sure is that the "robots" didn't participate, and there is no way we
could deduct something about doping. We can't even know for sure that
this year's top five aren't all dopers also.

Quoted message said:

The result was a great Tour this year sans the robots.

It was great indeed.

On 23 Jul 2006 10:00:28 -0700, "Kurgan Gringioni" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Ned Buntline said:

In my mind, the most amazing thing about Landis' win this year is - unlike
Armstrong - he did it on his own. Most of the tour he had no team -
certainly not in the mountains. He is very gracious when talking to the
press about Phonak, but I think that he'd be better served by an
organization who will back him up with some support on the road.

Dumbass -

LANCE had the dominating team for his later wins, but the first few
wins were accomplished w/ a relatively weak team.

Dumbass -

if LANCE had such a dominating team last year why'd they suck so bad this year.
Mostly the same guys.

Ron

"RonSonic" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On 23 Jul 2006 10:00:28 -0700, "Kurgan Gringioni" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Ned Buntline said:

In my mind, the most amazing thing about Landis' win this year is -
unlike
Armstrong - he did it on his own. Most of the tour he had no team -
certainly not in the mountains. He is very gracious when talking to the
press about Phonak, but I think that he'd be better served by an
organization who will back him up with some support on the road.

Dumbass -

LANCE had the dominating team for his later wins, but the first few
wins were accomplished w/ a relatively weak team.

Dumbass -

if LANCE had such a dominating team last year why'd they suck so bad this
year.
Mostly the same guys.

Ron

I don't think Disco performed that well as a team last year either. It seems
to me that the biggest change ocurred when they replaced Landis with
Salvodelli and also added Popovych. It may just have been fatigue from the
Giro, but Salvodelli does not seem interested in riding hard for anyone
except himself. From what I have seen, Popovych has yet to show the
potential to be superior as either a time trialist or a climber.

Rick

"Ned Buntline" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:eyKwg.2916$qZ2.1401@trndny01...

Quoted message said:

In my mind, the most amazing thing about Landis' win this year is - unlike
Armstrong - he did it on his own. Most of the tour he had no team -
certainly not in the mountains. He is very gracious when talking to the
press about Phonak, but I think that he'd be better served by an
organization who will back him up with some support on the road.

Did you follow the tour in 1999, the year that Lance first won? Many people
said that the TTT was included in 2000 because Postal had a horrible team
and it would eliminate the possibility of Lance repeating.

RonSonic said:

On 23 Jul 2006 10:00:28 -0700, "Kurgan Gringioni" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Ned Buntline said:

In my mind, the most amazing thing about Landis' win this year is - unlike
Armstrong - he did it on his own. Most of the tour he had no team -
certainly not in the mountains. He is very gracious when talking to the
press about Phonak, but I think that he'd be better served by an
organization who will back him up with some support on the road.

Dumbass -

LANCE had the dominating team for his later wins, but the first few
wins were accomplished w/ a relatively weak team.

Dumbass -

if LANCE had such a dominating team last year why'd they suck so bad this year.
Mostly the same guys.

KG answered that question better than anyone 2 weeks ago. The thread
was "Racers go so much better when they have a purpose."

There's another answer that makes less sense to me. It sounds like "The
use of performance enhancing substances dropped by some undefined amount
below some magical threshold such that everything is different in some
readily apparent way."

Lots of people buy into explanation number 2 because it has a feel-good,
evil has been defeated, "Mission Accomplished" air about it.

B. Lafferty said:

"Tim Lines" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

B. Lafferty said:

"Ned Buntline" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:eyKwg.2916$qZ2.1401@trndny01...

>In my mind, the most amazing thing about Landis' win this year is -
>unlike Armstrong - he did it on his own. Most of the tour he had no
>team - certainly not in the mountains. He is very gracious when talking
>to the press about Phonak, but I think that he'd be better served by an
>organization who will back him up with some support on the road.

He could have had a stronger team but even so Phonak is in second place
in the team standings. They performed when they had to, as at the
beginning of stage 16. It seems to me that with a cleaner Tour, the
advantage of a team riding like Discovery in past years is not as great
in the mountains. Nicely retro, eh?

So, it the drop from 99% cheating to 85% that changed EVERYTHING?

The threshold for a competitive tour is what, 90% or so cheating?

I'm not the only one saying that Operation P and its fallout have caused
this Tour to be significantly different.

I just wanted to see if you had a defense for it. Your defense is that
lots of people say it so it must be true. Got it.

Quoted message said:

By what percentage has doping been
reduced this year? Who knows. The percentage doesn't matter anyway. What
became clear was that the biggest dopers were either out of the race or
afraid to follow the usual plan.

What were they afraid of this year that they weren't afraid of last
year? UCI testing protocols? French police?

Quoted message said:

The result was a great Tour this year sans
the robots.

This last bit makes more sense. Since the top, most consistent, talent
was removed the remaining riders were not the consistent "robots". I
agree with that part. But it doesn't have much to do with the tour
being cleaner.

The Spanish bust was a one time deal, like Festina. Life goes on. That
"Mission Accomplished" banner of yours has more wishful thinking behind
it than GW's.

Ernst Noch said:

B. Lafferty said:

I'm not the only one saying that Operation P and its fallout have
caused this Tour to be significantly different. By what percentage
has doping been reduced this year? Who knows. The percentage doesn't
matter anyway. What became clear was that the biggest dopers were
either out of the race or afraid to follow the usual plan.

No, logically that's not clear at all. I have the same feeling about it
as you are voicing here, but still let's not jump to conclusions.

Fact: The best riders (measured by their previous results) were not
participating.
Fact: Three of these were not participating because they are linked to
doping.
Fact: All remaining riders have shown no "robot like" riding in the
past, and also not in this tour.

Thought experiment: What if Basso and/or Ullrich weren't doping? It's
still not proven yet. Could we explain the "non-robot" tour anyway?

The answer is, yes we could, because if you are a robot, with or without
doping, you win when faced with mere humans. The only thing we know for
sure is that the "robots" didn't participate, and there is no way we
could deduct something about doping. We can't even know for sure that
this year's top five aren't all dopers also.

Quoted message said:

The result was a great Tour this year sans the robots.

It was great indeed.

Very well said. It's nice to see someone thinking this through logically.

Tim Lines said:

Lots of people buy into explanation number 2 because it has a feel-good,
evil has been defeated, "Mission Accomplished" air about it.

So has [censored] bought an aircraft carrier yet ?