Alloy Nipples@#$%^&*&^!!!!!!

"RonSonic" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

A spoke comes of in my hand!?!?!?! The nipple broke at the end of the

spoke

Quoted message said:

which aligned with the base of the nipple's head, just at the end of the

barrel.

Quoted message said:

The break area was a grainy texture with a powdery white appearance. The

break

Quoted message said:

was almost perfectly flat across the nipple. The shocking thing was how

little

Quoted message said:

force I applied.

Fortunately I had some brass nips handy from last years MTB spoke breaking
festival, and spun one on.

With some trepidation I went around the wheel pulling on spokes and all

the

Quoted message said:

others held. I'll go ride 'em.

Am thinking of replacing all the nipples on the next tire change, when I

go back

Quoted message said:

to cross tires. Seem reasonable, or was this a fluke? Is this the normal

failure

Quoted message said:

mode?

Or is this just one more reason why smart people like Jobst won't ride

sewups

Quoted message said:

anymore.

Nothing to do with tubulars - aluminium for spoke nipples is just a
Completely Dumb Idea.

RonSonic said:

So it's raining like hell yesterday and I'm getting my 'cross bike into summer
mode which I've decided means (among other things) putting fast road sewups on
the nice wheelset (D/A hubs with GP4 rims - okay, compared to the rest of my
stuff this is nice).

So there I am got a nice Conti sprinter on, glued and partially aired and I'm
turning it and aligning the tire on the rim. I'm muscling it a bit to get
everything in place and to do so I'm holding rim and spokes in one hand and
pinching and moving the tire with the other.

A spoke comes of in my hand!?!?!?! The nipple broke at the end of the spoke
which aligned with the base of the nipple's head, just at the end of the barrel.
The break area was a grainy texture with a powdery white appearance. The break
was almost perfectly flat across the nipple. The shocking thing was how little
force I applied.

It happened to me. On an ancient rear wheel with 26" MA-2s, Wheelsmith
spokes, American Classic hub, and black aluminum nipples (I'm a reformed
weight weenie). Went for a ride one day and 6 or 7 of the rear nipples
exploded a couple of hundred yards from my house. They were shooting
all over the place.

Quoted message said:

Fortunately I had some brass nips handy from last years MTB spoke breaking
festival, and spun one on.

With some trepidation I went around the wheel pulling on spokes and all the
others held. I'll go ride 'em.

Am thinking of replacing all the nipples on the next tire change, when I go back
to cross tires. Seem reasonable, or was this a fluke? Is this the normal failure
mode?

I replaced them all.

Quoted message said:

Or is this just one more reason why smart people like Jobst won't ride sewups
anymore.

It's nothing to do with the rims.

Greg

--
"All my time I spent in heaven
Revelries of dance and wine
Waking to the sound of laughter
Up I'd rise and kiss the sky" - The Mekons

RonSonic said:

So it's raining like hell yesterday and I'm getting my 'cross bike into summer
mode which I've decided means (among other things) putting fast road sewups on
the nice wheelset (D/A hubs with GP4 rims - okay, compared to the rest of my
stuff this is nice).

So there I am got a nice Conti sprinter on, glued and partially aired and I'm
turning it and aligning the tire on the rim. I'm muscling it a bit to get
everything in place and to do so I'm holding rim and spokes in one hand and
pinching and moving the tire with the other.

A spoke comes of in my hand!?!?!?! The nipple broke at the end of the spoke
which aligned with the base of the nipple's head, just at the end of the barrel.
The break area was a grainy texture with a powdery white appearance. The break
was almost perfectly flat across the nipple. The shocking thing was how little
force I applied.

Fortunately I had some brass nips handy from last years MTB spoke breaking
festival, and spun one on.

With some trepidation I went around the wheel pulling on spokes and all the
others held. I'll go ride 'em.

Am thinking of replacing all the nipples on the next tire change, when I go back
to cross tires. Seem reasonable, or was this a fluke? Is this the normal failure
mode?

Or is this just one more reason why smart people like Jobst won't ride sewups
anymore.

My MTB wheels are only 1 year old with alu nipples. The wheel felt like
it had slack spokes (or maybe it's the floppy 2.0" tire on the narrow
rim?) so I tried to tighten them. Virtually all the nipples
disintegrated after a half turn of the spoke wrench. What was supposed
to be a 15 minute operation before a ride turned into an all evening
project with replacing all the nipples. I had to use a wire brush on
the spoke threads to get all of the nipple off as they had just turned
into mush.

Joseph

Quoted message said:

My MTB wheels are only 1 year old with alu nipples. The wheel felt
like
it had slack spokes (or maybe it's the floppy 2.0" tire on the narrow
rim?) so I tried to tighten them. Virtually all the nipples
disintegrated after a half turn of the spoke wrench. What was supposed
to be a 15 minute operation before a ride turned into an all evening
project with replacing all the nipples. I had to use a wire brush on
the spoke threads to get all of the nipple off as they had just turned
into mush.

What brand of nipple?

Is there not a difference between DT and cheaper ones?

~PB

Pete Biggs said:

Quoted message said:

My MTB wheels are only 1 year old with alu nipples. The wheel felt
like
it had slack spokes (or maybe it's the floppy 2.0" tire on the narrow
rim?) so I tried to tighten them. Virtually all the nipples
disintegrated after a half turn of the spoke wrench. What was supposed
to be a 15 minute operation before a ride turned into an all evening
project with replacing all the nipples. I had to use a wire brush on
the spoke threads to get all of the nipple off as they had just turned
into mush.

What brand of nipple?

Is there not a difference between DT and cheaper ones?

I am not sure, but I believe these were Wheelsmith. They are brass DT
now!

Joseph

It sounds like the alloy has oxidized a common problem with aluminum alloy.
People know that aluminum doesn't rust but they don't know that unprotected
it still oxidizes! My guess is water penetration at the threads that
eventually leads to oxidation and failure.

I used to use alloy nipples too, but not anymore. I didn't run into the
failure problems, but I was never able to get a the correct tension vs. a
brass nipple. I didn't think that the few grams savings offset the weaker
wheel that was harder to maintain and I am a weight weenie to the max,
having a 12 lbs bike! Of course with wheels that I can really ride on the
same bike weights 15 lbs. The 12 lbs setup would fail if you hit a pot hole
at any decent speed!

cel

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

RonSonic said:

So it's raining like hell yesterday and I'm getting my 'cross bike into

summer

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

mode which I've decided means (among other things) putting fast road

sewups on

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the nice wheelset (D/A hubs with GP4 rims - okay, compared to the rest

of my

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

stuff this is nice).

So there I am got a nice Conti sprinter on, glued and partially aired

and I'm

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

turning it and aligning the tire on the rim. I'm muscling it a bit to

get

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

everything in place and to do so I'm holding rim and spokes in one hand

and

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

pinching and moving the tire with the other.

A spoke comes of in my hand!?!?!?! The nipple broke at the end of the

spoke

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

which aligned with the base of the nipple's head, just at the end of the

barrel.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The break area was a grainy texture with a powdery white appearance. The

break

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

was almost perfectly flat across the nipple. The shocking thing was how

little

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

force I applied.

Fortunately I had some brass nips handy from last years MTB spoke

breaking

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

festival, and spun one on.

With some trepidation I went around the wheel pulling on spokes and all

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

others held. I'll go ride 'em.

Am thinking of replacing all the nipples on the next tire change, when I

go back

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

to cross tires. Seem reasonable, or was this a fluke? Is this the normal

failure

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

mode?

Or is this just one more reason why smart people like Jobst won't ride

sewups

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

anymore.

My MTB wheels are only 1 year old with alu nipples. The wheel felt like
it had slack spokes (or maybe it's the floppy 2.0" tire on the narrow
rim?) so I tried to tighten them. Virtually all the nipples
disintegrated after a half turn of the spoke wrench. What was supposed
to be a 15 minute operation before a ride turned into an all evening
project with replacing all the nipples. I had to use a wire brush on
the spoke threads to get all of the nipple off as they had just turned
into mush.

Joseph

cel said:

I used to use alloy nipples too, but not anymore. I didn't run into
the failure problems, but I was never able to get a the correct
tension vs. a brass nipple.

That's what I feared until I tried them (DT alloy nipples on front wheel).
No problems to get the same tension I use with brass nipples, they didn't
round at all.

I wouldn't be keen to use them on the rear drive side, though. Probably
could get good tension in the first place, but I would worry if ever I had
to tension more than normal at the roadside after breaking a nearby spoke.

~PB

In article <[email hidden]>,

RonSonic said:

So it's raining like hell yesterday and I'm getting my 'cross bike into summer
mode which I've decided means (among other things) putting fast road sewups on
the nice wheelset (D/A hubs with GP4 rims - okay, compared to the rest of my
stuff this is nice).

So there I am got a nice Conti sprinter on, glued and partially aired and I'm
turning it and aligning the tire on the rim. I'm muscling it a bit to get
everything in place and to do so I'm holding rim and spokes in one hand and
pinching and moving the tire with the other.

A spoke comes of in my hand!?!?!?! The nipple broke at the end of the spoke
which aligned with the base of the nipple's head, just at the end of the barrel.
The break area was a grainy texture with a powdery white appearance. The break
was almost perfectly flat across the nipple. The shocking thing was how little
force I applied.

Fortunately I had some brass nips handy from last years MTB spoke breaking
festival, and spun one on.

With some trepidation I went around the wheel pulling on spokes and all the
others held. I'll go ride 'em.

Am thinking of replacing all the nipples on the next tire change, when I go back
to cross tires. Seem reasonable, or was this a fluke? Is this the normal failure
mode?

Or is this just one more reason why smart people like Jobst won't ride sewups
anymore.

Are you saying the nipples are not brass? I would not wait
to replace them with brass nipples.

--
Michael Press

I was using DT nipples. They still will round off before I can get the
correct tension. I also tried the DT 3 cornered spoke wrench. I got the park
adjustable wrench now too. That one may work better by gripping the nipple.

cel

"Pete Biggs" <[email hidden]> wrote in
message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

cel said:

I used to use alloy nipples too, but not anymore. I didn't run into
the failure problems, but I was never able to get a the correct
tension vs. a brass nipple.

That's what I feared until I tried them (DT alloy nipples on front wheel).
No problems to get the same tension I use with brass nipples, they didn't
round at all.

I wouldn't be keen to use them on the rear drive side, though. Probably
could get good tension in the first place, but I would worry if ever I had
to tension more than normal at the roadside after breaking a nearby spoke.

~PB

On Mon, 26 Jun 2006 13:33:48 GMT, RonSonic <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

So it's raining like hell yesterday and I'm getting my 'cross bike into summer
mode which I've decided means (among other things) putting fast road sewups on
the nice wheelset. [multiple snips]

So there I am got a nice Conti sprinter on...

A spoke comes off in my hand!?!?!?! The nipple broke at the end of the spoke
which aligned with the base of the nipple's head, just at the end of the barrel.

Fortunately I had some brass nips handy from last years MTB spoke breaking
festival, and spun one on.

With some trepidation I went around the wheel pulling on spokes and all the
others held. I'll go ride 'em.

Am thinking of replacing all the nipples on the next tire change, when I go back
to cross tires. Seem reasonable, or was this a fluke? Is this the normal failure
mode?

IMLE, aluminum nipples have two annoying and predictable habits;
breaking, and siezing on to the spoke threads. I'd swap them out at
the next convenient point. You won't regret the two or three grams of
total extra weight.
--
Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
Some gardening required to reply via email.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

Werehatrack said:

the next convenient point. You won't regret the two or three grams of
total extra weight.

It's ~0.7g weight difference per nipple... so about 45g for a wheelset.

Does the climate matter... like salty and humid vs dry?

cel said:

I was using DT nipples. They still will round off before I can get the
correct tension. I also tried the DT 3 cornered spoke wrench. I got
the park adjustable wrench now too. That one may work better by
gripping the nipple.

I used a Spokey Pro on DT alloy nipps and experienced no rounding off at
all. Threads and spoke holes were greased. Sorry I don't have a
tensionometer to properly describe what tension I have, but I think it's
good for front 32h Open Pro with Sapim Race spokes.

Incidentally, I wonder if the bikes/wheels with crumbling nipples were
stored in damp conditions?

~PB

"Ron Ruff" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Werehatrack said:

the next convenient point. You won't regret the two or three grams of
total extra weight.

It's ~0.7g weight difference per nipple... so about 45g for a wheelset.

Does the climate matter... like salty and humid vs dry?

Nope.

They're just a Bad Idea regardless.

RonSonic said:

So it's raining like hell yesterday and I'm getting my 'cross bike into summer
mode which I've decided means (among other things) putting fast road sewups on
the nice wheelset (D/A hubs with GP4 rims - okay, compared to the rest of my
stuff this is nice).

So there I am got a nice Conti sprinter on, glued and partially aired and I'm
turning it and aligning the tire on the rim. I'm muscling it a bit to get
everything in place and to do so I'm holding rim and spokes in one hand and
pinching and moving the tire with the other.

A spoke comes of in my hand!?!?!?! The nipple broke at the end of the spoke
which aligned with the base of the nipple's head, just at the end of the barrel.
The break area was a grainy texture with a powdery white appearance. The break
was almost perfectly flat across the nipple. The shocking thing was how little
force I applied.

Fortunately I had some brass nips handy from last years MTB spoke breaking
festival, and spun one on.

With some trepidation I went around the wheel pulling on spokes and all the
others held. I'll go ride 'em.

Am thinking of replacing all the nipples on the next tire change, when I go back
to cross tires. Seem reasonable, or was this a fluke? Is this the normal failure
mode?

Has nuthin to do with the tire type..aluminum nipples do nothing of
benefit and do fail much more quickly than brass. What you saw is
common.

Quoted message said:

Or is this just one more reason why smart people like Jobst won't ride sewups
anymore.

Ron

On 27 Jun 2006 05:48:23 -0700, "Qui si parla Campagnolo" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

RonSonic said:

So it's raining like hell yesterday and I'm getting my 'cross bike into summer
mode which I've decided means (among other things) putting fast road sewups on
the nice wheelset (D/A hubs with GP4 rims - okay, compared to the rest of my
stuff this is nice).

So there I am got a nice Conti sprinter on, glued and partially aired and I'm
turning it and aligning the tire on the rim. I'm muscling it a bit to get
everything in place and to do so I'm holding rim and spokes in one hand and
pinching and moving the tire with the other.

A spoke comes of in my hand!?!?!?! The nipple broke at the end of the spoke
which aligned with the base of the nipple's head, just at the end of the barrel.
The break area was a grainy texture with a powdery white appearance. The break
was almost perfectly flat across the nipple. The shocking thing was how little
force I applied.

Fortunately I had some brass nips handy from last years MTB spoke breaking
festival, and spun one on.

With some trepidation I went around the wheel pulling on spokes and all the
others held. I'll go ride 'em.

Am thinking of replacing all the nipples on the next tire change, when I go back
to cross tires. Seem reasonable, or was this a fluke? Is this the normal failure
mode?

Has nuthin to do with the tire type..aluminum nipples do nothing of
benefit and do fail much more quickly than brass. What you saw is
common.

Guess so from what everyone's saying. I bought these very, very lightly used,
very true and tensions even. In fact, when I screwed on the new nipple I just
sort of matched the other spokes for pitch and it fell right into true.

Was just surprised at how easily this thing came apart.

And of course it has nothing to do with using sewups or the rims, just wanted to
throw a bone into the yard.

Ron

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Or is this just one more reason why smart people like Jobst won't ride sewups
anymore.

Ron

RonSonic said:

So it's raining like hell yesterday and I'm getting my 'cross bike into
summer mode which I've decided means (among other things) putting fast
road sewups on the nice wheelset (D/A hubs with GP4 rims - okay,
compared to the rest of my stuff this is nice).

So there I am got a nice Conti sprinter on, glued and partially aired
and I'm turning it and aligning the tire on the rim. I'm muscling it a
bit to get everything in place and to do so I'm holding rim and spokes
in one hand and pinching and moving the tire with the other.

A spoke comes of in my hand!?!?!?! The nipple broke at the end of the
spoke which aligned with the base of the nipple's head, just at the end
of the barrel. The break area was a grainy texture with a powdery white
appearance. The break was almost perfectly flat across the nipple. The
shocking thing was how little force I applied.

Fortunately I had some brass nips handy from last years MTB spoke
breaking festival, and spun one on.

With some trepidation I went around the wheel pulling on spokes and all
the others held. I'll go ride 'em.

Am thinking of replacing all the nipples on the next tire change, when I
go back to cross tires. Seem reasonable, or was this a fluke? Is this
the normal failure mode?

Or is this just one more reason why smart people like Jobst won't ride
sewups anymore.

Ron

I used to build wheels with alloy nipples. Hey, 20 grams less per wheel!
My brother the Mechanical Engineer told me that after a couple of years
they would just start popping, one-by-one. Sure enough, he was right. Same
kind of powdery break you describe. Check the spoke tension. Based on
less than statistically significant samples, I would say that 100 KGF
seems to be the limit for alloy nipples, when used over time. If you stay
about there or less, they will probably last. I just use brass now.

Ron Abramson

i've had the same experience.

i've never had issues with aluminium nipples. they've never crumbled,
broken, cracked, or snapped clean off.

i use DT nipples and the DT Proline spoke wrench.

tensions are always within 5 kgf of what the rim manufacturer
recomends.

Pete Biggs said:

cel said:

I was using DT nipples. They still will round off before I can get the
correct tension. I also tried the DT 3 cornered spoke wrench. I got
the park adjustable wrench now too. That one may work better by
gripping the nipple.

I used a Spokey Pro on DT alloy nipps and experienced no rounding off at
all. Threads and spoke holes were greased. Sorry I don't have a
tensionometer to properly describe what tension I have, but I think it's
good for front 32h Open Pro with Sapim Race spokes.

Incidentally, I wonder if the bikes/wheels with crumbling nipples were
stored in damp conditions?

~PB

"sal bass" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

i've had the same experience.

i've never had issues with aluminium nipples. they've never crumbled,
broken, cracked, or snapped clean off.

Yet.

Ron Ruff said:

Werehatrack said:

the next convenient point. You won't regret the two or three grams of
total extra weight.

It's ~0.7g weight difference per nipple... so about 45g for a wheelset.

Does the climate matter... like salty and humid vs dry?

I live in a dry area but still over time the nipples froze to the
spokes, and on that fateful day 6 or 7 of the nipples exploded at once.

Greg

--
"All my time I spent in heaven
Revelries of dance and wine
Waking to the sound of laughter
Up I'd rise and kiss the sky" - The Mekons