Hubris

Kristian M Zoerhoff said:

That night, I went back out in the garage, and noticed that the tire was
flat again. Drats, I thought, either my patch failed [2], or there's
more debris in the tire that I missed. I decided to start with an
external inspection of the tire, so I applied some soapy water, and
pumped up the tube. Five holes promptly revealed themselves, including a
1/4" long cut buried in the oh-so-useless-but-decorative tread [3]. I
then pulled the tire off and re-swept for debris, but came up clean. I
also re-inflated the tube to find the newest hole, but could not, so I
tossed the tube (no way I'm trusting a tube with a leak I can't find),
and installed a backup tube (a tube that had been patched from an
earlier flat).

Find the hole in the tube, not tire. Remove the tube, pump it up, locate
leak by passing it by your face, if you can't find it, dunk it in a pan
of water. Line up the hole with the tire to look for the cause.

Quoted message said:

I just finished pulling that tube (which I tossed, as I'm not wasting a
second patch on it),

Patches are <10% the cost of tubes, there's nothing wrong with lots of
patches.

Quoted message said:

[3] I'd been putting off ordering new tires, so I took this as a sign
from above, and ordered an Ultra GatorSkin and a pack of Slime tubes
later that night. I really don't like dealing with flats.

[4] Did I mention I'm not that confident in my patching skills?

It's not very hard to learn to patch tubes. Slime is really only
necessary in badly thorn infested areas (if then).

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

Kristian M Zoerhoff said:

also re-inflated the tube to find the newest hole, but could not, so I
tossed the tube (no way I'm trusting a tube with a leak I can't find),
and installed a backup tube (a tube that had been patched from an
earlier flat).

Find the hole in the tube, not tire. Remove the tube, pump it up, locate
leak by passing it by your face, if you can't find it, dunk it in a pan
of water. Line up the hole with the tire to look for the cause.

Tried that, couldn't find it. There was obviously a hole, as air was
leaking into the tire and then out through the cuts, but it was
apparently only leaking when the tube was stressed in a particular way,
which I could not replicate outside of the tire.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I just finished pulling that tube (which I tossed, as I'm not wasting a
second patch on it),

Patches are <10% the cost of tubes, there's nothing wrong with lots of
patches.

Yes, but patches can fail, and I'm paranoid.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

[4] Did I mention I'm not that confident in my patching skills?

It's not very hard to learn to patch tubes. Slime is really only
necessary in badly thorn infested areas (if then).

We don't have thorns, but we have tons of glass, metal, sharp gravel,
and other nasty debris that doesn't get swept up often (there are loads
of subdivisions and office parks being built around here, so lots of
construction traffic creates new hazards daily), and can be tough to
spot at night, or when riding in the rain [1]. It's really more the
labor of patching that I'm trying to avoid -- the fact that my patches
themselves have actually held [2] shows that I'm overly paranoid about
the actual patches themselves.

[1] Of my various flats, most seem to originate in the rain and/or dark.

[2] Thus far.

--

__o Kristian Zoerhoff
_'\(,_ [email hidden]
(_)/ (_)

Kristian M Zoerhoff said:

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

Kristian M Zoerhoff said:

also re-inflated the tube to find the newest hole, but could not, so I
tossed the tube (no way I'm trusting a tube with a leak I can't find),
and installed a backup tube (a tube that had been patched from an
earlier flat).

Find the hole in the tube, not tire. Remove the tube, pump it up, locate
leak by passing it by your face, if you can't find it, dunk it in a pan
of water. Line up the hole with the tire to look for the cause.

Tried that, couldn't find it. There was obviously a hole, as air was
leaking into the tire and then out through the cuts, but it was
apparently only leaking when the tube was stressed in a particular way,
which I could not replicate outside of the tire.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I just finished pulling that tube (which I tossed, as I'm not wasting a
second patch on it),

Patches are <10% the cost of tubes, there's nothing wrong with lots of
patches.

Yes, but patches can fail, and I'm paranoid.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

[4] Did I mention I'm not that confident in my patching skills?

It's not very hard to learn to patch tubes. Slime is really only
necessary in badly thorn infested areas (if then).

We don't have thorns, but we have tons of glass, metal, sharp gravel,
and other nasty debris that doesn't get swept up often (there are loads
of subdivisions and office parks being built around here, so lots of
construction traffic creates new hazards daily), and can be tough to
spot at night, or when riding in the rain [1]. It's really more the
labor of patching that I'm trying to avoid -- the fact that my patches
themselves have actually held [2] shows that I'm overly paranoid about
the actual patches themselves.

[1] Of my various flats, most seem to originate in the rain and/or dark.

[2] Thus far.

I've patched tubes over a hundred times (not same tube, usually only a
dozen or so max), the only time I've found one that didn't show the leak
in a pan of water was when the leak was between the valve stem and the
tube, where you had to tilt the stem to get it to bubble. Unfortunately,
those aren't fixable.

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

I've patched tubes over a hundred times (not same tube, usually only a
dozen or so max), the only time I've found one that didn't show the leak
in a pan of water was when the leak was between the valve stem and the
tube, where you had to tilt the stem to get it to bubble. Unfortunately,
those aren't fixable.

That's almost certainly what it was, then, given that I did have an
identifiable hole around the valve stem with my next attempt (where I
pinched it between the bead and rim). At least now I know I'm not
/completely/ crazy.

--

__o Kristian Zoerhoff
_'\(,_ [email hidden]
(_)/ (_)

Peter Cole said:

I've patched tubes over a hundred times (not same tube, usually only
a dozen or so max), the only time I've found one that didn't show
the leak in a pan of water was when the leak was between the valve
stem and the tube, where you had to tilt the stem to get it to
bubble. Unfortunately, those aren't fixable.

Oh no! Why do we have this forum if no one can learn fro it. Rip the
separating Presta valve stem out of the tube, put some saliva on the
hole and insert the tubular stem that should be in your patch kit and
tighten the nut. Fortunately I haven't had separating stems since the
production run that cause them a year or two ago.

Of course the true believers say that it is the knurled stem nut that
pulled the stem out of the tube. We had to listen to the alcoholic
one on that. The test for that is to screw the knurled nut down as
tight as you can, then inflate the tire to 100psi and not that the nut
is loose again. The purpose of the nut is to make pumping with a
frame fit pump practical, a pump without a hose.

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/tube-failure.html#valve
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/presta-nuts.html

Jobst Brandt

Peter Cole said:

I've patched tubes over a hundred times (not same tube, usually only
a dozen or so max), the only time I've found one that didn't show
the leak in a pan of water was when the leak was between the valve
stem and the tube, where you had to tilt the stem to get it to
bubble. Unfortunately, those aren't fixable.

Oh no! Why do we have this forum if no one can learn fro it. Rip the
separating Presta valve stem out of the tube, put some saliva on the
hole and insert the tubular stem that should be in your patch kit and
tighten the nut. Fortunately I haven't had separating stems since the
production run that cause them a year or two ago.

Of course the true believers say that it is the knurled stem nut that
pulled the stem out of the tube. We had to listen to the alcoholic
one on that. The test for that is to screw the knurled nut down as
tight as you can, then inflate the tire to 100psi and not that the nut
is loose again. The purpose of the nut is to make pumping with a
frame fit pump practical, a pump without a hose.

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/tube-failure.html#valve
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/presta-nuts.html

Jobst Brandt

Quoted message said:

Peter Cole said:

I've patched tubes over a hundred times (not same tube, usually only
a dozen or so max), the only time I've found one that didn't show
the leak in a pan of water was when the leak was between the valve
stem and the tube, where you had to tilt the stem to get it to
bubble. Unfortunately, those aren't fixable.

Oh no! Why do we have this forum if no one can learn fro it. Rip the
separating Presta valve stem out of the tube, put some saliva on the
hole and insert the tubular stem that should be in your patch kit and
tighten the nut.

Not having a supply of tubular valves, I just carry a spare tube, this
allows avoiding riding on a fresh patch, too.

Quoted message said:

Fortunately I haven't had separating stems since the
production run that cause them a year or two ago.

Me neither, and I didn't have so many that buying replacement tubes was
a hardship.

Quoted message said:

Of course the true believers say that it is the knurled stem nut that
pulled the stem out of the tube. We had to listen to the alcoholic
one on that. The test for that is to screw the knurled nut down as
tight as you can, then inflate the tire to 100psi and not that the nut
is loose again.

In my early days with presta valves I made the mistake of doing the
reverse -- tightening the nut hard on a fully inflated tire and finding
that I couldn't remove it with my fingers when the tire deflated.

Quoted message said:

The purpose of the nut is to make pumping with a
frame fit pump practical, a pump without a hose.

I've used a Zefal (with a locking chuck, no hose) for the past 30+
years. Many of those years were with schrader valves which had no nut. I
don't find that the nut serves any useful purpose. I throw mine away. I
do have a use for valve caps, I glue those (presta) onto fender stays
when I lose the factory ends.

Quoted message said:

Peter Cole said:

I've patched tubes over a hundred times (not same tube, usually only
a dozen or so max), the only time I've found one that didn't show
the leak in a pan of water was when the leak was between the valve
stem and the tube, where you had to tilt the stem to get it to
bubble. Unfortunately, those aren't fixable.

Oh no! Why do we have this forum if no one can learn fro it. Rip the
separating Presta valve stem out of the tube, put some saliva on the
hole and insert the tubular stem that should be in your patch kit and
tighten the nut.

Not having a supply of tubular valves, I just carry a spare tube, this
allows avoiding riding on a fresh patch, too.

Quoted message said:

Fortunately I haven't had separating stems since the
production run that cause them a year or two ago.

Me neither, and I didn't have so many that buying replacement tubes was
a hardship.

Quoted message said:

Of course the true believers say that it is the knurled stem nut that
pulled the stem out of the tube. We had to listen to the alcoholic
one on that. The test for that is to screw the knurled nut down as
tight as you can, then inflate the tire to 100psi and not that the nut
is loose again.

In my early days with presta valves I made the mistake of doing the
reverse -- tightening the nut hard on a fully inflated tire and finding
that I couldn't remove it with my fingers when the tire deflated.

Quoted message said:

The purpose of the nut is to make pumping with a
frame fit pump practical, a pump without a hose.

I've used a Zefal (with a locking chuck, no hose) for the past 30+
years. Many of those years were with schrader valves which had no nut. I
don't find that the nut serves any useful purpose. I throw mine away. I
do have a use for valve caps, I glue those (presta) onto fender stays
when I lose the factory ends.

Kristian M Zoerhoff said:

I made the mistake of invoking the name of the Fairy That Must Not Be
Named last week.

Quoted message said:

I just finished pulling that tube (which I tossed, as I'm not wasting a
second patch on it), and installed my backup-backup tube, being
excruciatingly careful about setting the bead this time. If I go through
any more tires, I'm changing my name to Marian.

Ahh but you see, I am apparently related to the Fairy and you've
invoked _me_ which is almost as bad. Be prepared for a rash of pinch
flats shortly followed by the destruction of your rear tire.

-M

(back on a cheap tire due to the Bontrager developing a large number of
interesting bulges when it was put back on the wheel after what could
have been a minor retruing but involved the truing stand because
someone wants to learn about truing wheels and someone else had the
time and the temporary lack of customers enough to show her...)

Quoted message said:

Peter Cole said:

I've patched tubes over a hundred times (not same tube, usually only
a dozen or so max), the only time I've found one that didn't show
the leak in a pan of water was when the leak was between the valve
stem and the tube, where you had to tilt the stem to get it to
bubble. Unfortunately, those aren't fixable.

Oh no! Why do we have this forum if no one can learn fro it. Rip the
separating Presta valve stem out of the tube, put some saliva on the
hole and insert the tubular stem that should be in your patch kit and
tighten the nut. Fortunately I haven't had separating stems since the
production run that cause them a year or two ago.

I learned enough from this forum that I've never had tubulars. What
should I do now? Buy new wheels with tubes so I can patch my
clinchers??

Pat

Email address works as is.

Patrick Lamb said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I've patched tubes over a hundred times (not same tube, usually
only a dozen or so max), the only time I've found one that didn't
show the leak in a pan of water was when the leak was between the
valve stem and the tube, where you had to tilt the stem to get it
to bubble. Unfortunately, those aren't fixable.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Oh no! Why do we have this forum if no one can learn fro it. Rip
the separating Presta valve stem out of the tube, put some saliva
on the hole and insert the tubular stem that should be in your
patch kit and tighten the nut. Fortunately I haven't had
separating stems since the production run that cause them a year or
two ago.

Quoted message said:

I learned enough from this forum that I've never had tubulars. What
should I do now? Buy new wheels with tubes so I can patch my
clinchers??

Drop by your better bike shop and pick up a Presta tubular stem from
the cast-off bin.

http://www.yellowjersey.org/NUVALVE.JPG

Lower left of picture = Presta, lower right = Schrader.

Quoted message said:

Email address works as is.

....and why not. So does mine.

Jobst Brandt

Quoted message said:

Patrick Lamb said:

Quoted message said:

> I've patched tubes over a hundred times (not same tube, usually
> only a dozen or so max), the only time I've found one that didn't
> show the leak in a pan of water was when the leak was between the
> valve stem and the tube, where you had to tilt the stem to get it
> to bubble. Unfortunately, those aren't fixable.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Oh no! Why do we have this forum if no one can learn fro it. Rip
the separating Presta valve stem out of the tube, put some saliva
on the hole and insert the tubular stem that should be in your
patch kit and tighten the nut. Fortunately I haven't had
separating stems since the production run that cause them a year or
two ago.

Quoted message said:

I learned enough from this forum that I've never had tubulars. What
should I do now? Buy new wheels with tubes so I can patch my
clinchers??

Drop by your better bike shop and pick up a Presta tubular stem from
the cast-off bin.

http://www.yellowjersey.org/NUVALVE.JPG

Lower left of picture = Presta, lower right = Schrader.

I'll do that, next time I'm in Wisconsin, is it? Any suggestions for
the 20 years between now and then?

Pat

Quoted message said:

Not having a supply of tubular valves, I just carry a spare tube, this
allows avoiding riding on a fresh patch, too.

Hmm. Do you sometimes carry a patched tubes as a spare?

Patrick Lamb said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> I've patched tubes over a hundred times (not same tube, usually
>> only a dozen or so max), the only time I've found one that
>> didn't show the leak in a pan of water was when the leak was
>> between the valve stem and the tube, where you had to tilt the
>> stem to get it to bubble. Unfortunately, those aren't fixable.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> Oh no! Why do we have this forum if no one can learn from it.
> Rip the separating Presta valve stem out of the tube, put some
> saliva on the hole and insert the tubular stem that should be in
> your patch kit and tighten the nut. Fortunately I haven't had
> separating stems since the production run that cause them a year
> or two ago.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I learned enough from this forum that I've never had tubulars.
What should I do now? Buy new wheels with tubes so I can patch my
clinchers??

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Drop by your better bike shop and pick up a Presta tubular stem
from the cast-off bin.

http://www.yellowjersey.org/NUVALVE.JPG

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Lower left of picture = Presta, lower right = Schrader.

Quoted message said:

I'll do that, next time I'm in Wisconsin, is it? Any suggestions
for the 20 years between now and then?

I see you want to look lie a martyr. Give it up and drop in on you
local bicycle shop to get a Presta valve stem. Don't make it out to
be a Hajj to the Kaaba.

Jobst Brandt

Doug Landau said:

Quoted message said:

Not having a supply of tubular valves, I just carry a spare tube,
this allows avoiding riding on a fresh patch, too.

The point is that stem separation is no reason to discard a tube, one
that is probably more pristine than one that needs a patch. These
stems are available at any bicycle shop that sells latex tubes or
tubulars with latex tubes there being no simple way of attaching a
stem to latex by other means.

Quoted message said:

MM. Do you sometimes carry a patched tubes as a spare?

So what does that have to do with stem replacement, or anything in
this thread, for that matter.

Jobst Brandt

Patrick Lamb said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> I've patched tubes over a hundred times (not same tube, usually
>> only a dozen or so max), the only time I've found one that
>> didn't show the leak in a pan of water was when the leak was
>> between the valve stem and the tube, where you had to tilt the
>> stem to get it to bubble. Unfortunately, those aren't fixable.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> Oh no! Why do we have this forum if no one can learn from it.
> Rip the separating Presta valve stem out of the tube, put some
> saliva on the hole and insert the tubular stem that should be in
> your patch kit and tighten the nut. Fortunately I haven't had
> separating stems since the production run that cause them a year
> or two ago.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I learned enough from this forum that I've never had tubulars.
What should I do now? Buy new wheels with tubes so I can patch my
clinchers??

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Drop by your better bike shop and pick up a Presta tubular stem
from the cast-off bin.

http://www.yellowjersey.org/NUVALVE.JPG

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Lower left of picture = Presta, lower right = Schrader.

Quoted message said:

I'll do that, next time I'm in Wisconsin, is it? Any suggestions
for the 20 years between now and then?

I see you want to look like a martyr. Give it up and drop in on your
local bicycle shop to get a Presta valve stem. Don't make it out to
be a Hajj to the Kaaba.

Jobst Brandt

[email hidden] wrote (AGAIN):

Quoted message said:

Patrick Lamb writes:

{MISSING JB ATTRIBUTION GOES HERE}

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Drop by your better bike shop and pick up a Presta tubular stem
from the cast-off bin.

Quoted message said:

http://www.yellowjersey.org/NUVALVE.JPG

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Lower left of picture = Presta, lower right = Schrader.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I'll do that, next time I'm in Wisconsin, is it? Any suggestions
for the 20 years between now and then?

Quoted message said:

I see you want to look like a martyr. Give it up and drop in on your
local bicycle shop to get a Presta valve stem. Don't make it out to
be a Hajj to the Kaaba.

Why did you post your needless and overly dramatic insult TWICE? (Once at
8:55 pm and again at 10:26.)

Just to rub the /mean/ in?!?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Not having a supply of tubular valves, I just carry a spare tube,
this allows avoiding riding on a fresh patch, too.

Quoted message said:

MM. Do you sometimes carry a patched tubes as a spare?

So what does that have to do with stem replacement, or anything in
this thread, for that matter.

Nothing, just collecting data. I don't carry an untested patch as a
spare since I don't have anywhere near close enough to 100% success
rate at patching.

IIRC you put your patched tubes in your seatbag. What is your patch
success rate?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> Not having a supply of tubular valves, I just carry a spare tube,
> this allows avoiding riding on a fresh patch, too.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

MM. Do you sometimes carry a patched tubes as a spare?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

So what does that have to do with stem replacement, or anything in
this thread, for that matter.

Quoted message said:

Nothing, just collecting data. I don't carry an untested patch as a
spare since I don't have anywhere near close enough to 100% success
rate at patching.

Quoted message said:

IIRC you put your patched tubes in your seatbag. What is your patch
success rate?

100%. What is it that goes wrong with your patches?

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/patching.html

Jobst Brandt