Road bike crash damage

Sasha (nospam) said:

Hi,

Assuming I have had a front on crash involving a motor vehicle, how would I
tell if my carbon forks and handlebars are structurally damaged, considering
they show no signs of being cosmetically damaged? I have had an accident
with a car (luckily my physical injuries weren't too bad), and the shop
quoting the damage to the bike has included the carbon fork and handlebars
in the quote, although they show no cosmetic signs of damage. Is it just a
case of "better replace them to be safe"? If there are no signs of
cracking/bending, can I conclude that they are still OK to ride on?

All opinions welcome.

Sasha

You can bruise carbon fiber, and it can be compromised with no outward
sign of damage, until it fails...and carbon doesn't bend, it breaks.
Good idea to replace...

jim beam said:

Sasha said:

Hi,

Assuming I have had a front on crash involving a motor vehicle, how would I
tell if my carbon forks and handlebars are structurally damaged, considering
they show no signs of being cosmetically damaged? I have had an accident
with a car (luckily my physical injuries weren't too bad), and the shop
quoting the damage to the bike has included the carbon fork and handlebars
in the quote, although they show no cosmetic signs of damage. Is it just a
case of "better replace them to be safe"? If there are no signs of
cracking/bending, can I conclude that they are still OK to ride on?

All opinions welcome.

Sasha

yes, they're "being safe". if you want to form your own opinion, the
key to assessing damage in carbon componentry is creaking or cracking
noises. it's /very/ rare for something to break without audible signs
of distress first. for the forks, one test is to take the wheel out and
squeeze the blade ends together with one hand. any creaking or cracking
noises, condemn that fork immediately. same for the bars. [gently]
stand on them to see if they complain.

Does that go for new forks? I recently got a real noisy one when new...

jim beam said:

Sasha said:

Hi,

Assuming I have had a front on crash involving a motor vehicle, how would I
tell if my carbon forks and handlebars are structurally damaged, considering
they show no signs of being cosmetically damaged? I have had an accident
with a car (luckily my physical injuries weren't too bad), and the shop
quoting the damage to the bike has included the carbon fork and handlebars
in the quote, although they show no cosmetic signs of damage. Is it just a
case of "better replace them to be safe"? If there are no signs of
cracking/bending, can I conclude that they are still OK to ride on?

All opinions welcome.

Sasha

yes, they're "being safe". if you want to form your own opinion, the
key to assessing damage in carbon componentry is creaking or cracking
noises. it's /very/ rare for something to break without audible signs
of distress first. for the forks, one test is to take the wheel out and
squeeze the blade ends together with one hand. any creaking or cracking
noises, condemn that fork immediately. same for the bars. [gently]
stand on them to see if they complain.

Also, you might be interested in reading two pages Trek recently put on
their web site about inspecting carbon fiber for damage. I don't know
how to link to it directly, but go to
http://www2.trekbikes.com/ then Double Yellow, then scroll down to
"Safety First Carbon Fiber Crash Replacement and Care Information".

Maybe this is the link:
http://www2.trekbikes.com/us/en/Inside_Trek/Misc/Safety_First_Carbon_Fiber_Crash_Replacement_and_Care_Information.php

or http://tinyurl.com/acguf

Quoting the first page:
======================================================
Safety First Carbon Fiber Crash Replacement and Care Information

On the heels of Lance Armstrong's seven Tour de France victories &
Chris Eatough's six 24 hour solo world championships, both aboard OCLV
Carbon frames, carbon fiber has become the material of choice in the
cycling industry. Although carbon is arguably the strongest material
used in the bicycle industry, it's important to remember that it reacts
differently as a result of major impacts than aluminum, steel or
titanium. Therefore, embracing a "Safety First" philosophy, Trek is
highlighting a Carbon Fiber Crash Replacement Program to make it easy
and affordable to replace damaged parts at your local Trek Authorized
Dealer. If you are riding a carbon frame or component, we encourage you
to check out our Proper Carbon Care & Maintenance fact sheet and list
of Carbon FAQ's to best ensure that you're equipment is safe, sound and
ready to be enjoyed.

proper carbon fiber care & maintenance
: forks and components :
Trek has been producing OCLV carbon bicycles since 1992. Our products
are rigorously tested and proven in the most brutal race conditions.

Quoted message said:

From the Tour de France to the 24 Hour Mountain Bike World

Championships, our OCLV carbon bikes have been ridden to victory in a
variety of racing arenas. Carbon has proven its performance pedigree.
However, carbon fi ber has unique qualities. Unlike metal parts, carbon
fi ber parts that have been damaged usually do not bend, bulge or
deform; they break. A damaged carbon part may appear normal at a quick
glance, but could suddenly fail without warning. Carbon forks,
handlebars and stems are most critical. Trek wants you to be safe. No
matter what brand you ride, if you have crashed or impacted your bike
(like when you forgot to take it off your roof rack when you drove into
the garage), take your bike to your dealer for inspection. Regularly
follow the self inspection tips below. If you suspect any of them are
true, stop riding your bike immediately and take it to your local
dealer for inspection and evaluation.

THE VISUAL TEST
Frequently inspect your bike frame, fork and carbon components.
· Look for any gouges or deep scratches, cracks, loose fibers or
other surface flaws.
· When cleaning your bike, pay attention to the cloth getting
snagged.

THE AUDIBLE TEST
Be careful to listen for uncommon noises.
· While riding your bike, carefully listen for any uncommon sounds.
Creaking, cracking or
popping noises could all be indications of a problem.

THE TACTILE TEST
Judging your bicycle's ride quality can be another method for
discerning a potential problem. Things to be aware of include:
· Any degradation in the shifting or braking performance.
· A change in the bike's ride quality or handling characteristics.

WARNING
Damaged carbon fi ber can fail suddenly, causing serious injury or
death. Carbon fiber
can conceal damage from an impact or crash. If you suspect your bike
has been impacted or crashed, immediately stop riding. Take the bike to
a dealer for inspection.

=====================================
End quote.

The second page is at
http://www2.trekbikes.com/us/en/Inside_Trek/Misc/Safety_First_Carbon_Fiber_Care_-_Questions.php
or http://tinyurl.com/q639l

Quote:
=====================================
Safety First Carbon Fiber Care - Questions

Questions & Answers

What is the definition of a crashed/impacted bike?
This is difficult to define because we cannot anticipate everything
that might happen to your bike. Crashing it while riding, riding at
speed into an object, and driving it into the garage on your car rack
are examples of what could cause damage to your carbon fiber.

How do I know if my frame, fork or component is damaged?
Take it to your dealer for inspection. If there is any doubt, the part
should be replaced under Trek's crash replacement policy.

My bike gets paint chips and scratches in normal use (no crashes). Are
"scratches" really a cause for concern?
Paint chips and cracks are usually not a concern. Take it to your
dealer for inspection.

Will the replacement be an exact match for the original?
We can match the color and graphics for the current model year and the
prior model year. For older bikes, the best option is a nude
replacement part. However, see your dealer for more information.

What if I am not the original owner?
We will still allow you to participate in the crash replacement
program.

Should I replace my bike if it falls over on its own?
A minor impact such as the bike tipping over should not cause a
problem. However, if you have any doubt, take your bike to a dealer for
evaluation.
=====================================
End quote.

jim beam said:

Sasha said:

Hi,

Assuming I have had a front on crash involving a motor vehicle, how
would I tell if my carbon forks and handlebars are structurally
damaged, considering they show no signs of being cosmetically damaged?
I have had an accident with a car (luckily my physical injuries
weren't too bad), and the shop quoting the damage to the bike has
included the carbon fork and handlebars in the quote, although they
show no cosmetic signs of damage. Is it just a case of "better replace
them to be safe"? If there are no signs of cracking/bending, can I
conclude that they are still OK to ride on?

All opinions welcome.

Sasha

yes, they're "being safe". if you want to form your own opinion, the
key to assessing damage in carbon componentry is creaking or cracking
noises. it's /very/ rare for something to break without audible signs
of distress first. for the forks, one test is to take the wheel out and
squeeze the blade ends together with one hand. any creaking or cracking
noises, condemn that fork immediately. same for the bars. [gently]
stand on them to see if they complain.

i should add: you may only get one chance at this. once any particular
fiber has popped, it's obviously not going to do it again, so pay very
close attention the first time you test. if you keep testing, it'll
reach a point where it's silent for a given load and you need to take it
up a notch for it to pop again. not good.

Sasha said:

Sorry I should point out that the handlebars are actually aluminium Deda
items, not carbon fibre. My understanding of aluminium is that it will
simply crack if hit hard enough,

nope. aluminum can be one of the most ductile common structural
materials. it only cracks if the ductile limit is exceeded [and you'd
notice that] or if it's fatigued.

Quoted message said:

rather than bend ie, it dosen't have any
elastic qualities.

look up engineering definitions of "elastic" and "plastic".

Quoted message said:

At least this is my experience with aluminium automotive
components. Any metallurgists out there? I have visually inspected the bars,
and measured them from various angles, and they seem ok, which is the reason
I ask about structural damage.

the thing you need to worry about with aluminum is fatigue. you can't
prevent it - so you should replace periodically. if these bars are a
few seasons old, replacement now is prudent.

Quoted message said:

Point taken about the carbon forks, but carbon has a high degree of
flexibility from my understanding.

no.

Quoted message said:

After all, isn't that the reason it is
used in forks?

no, it's strength to weight ratio. it has an added benefit of vibration
attenuation, but that's simply gravy.

Quoted message said:

The force of the accident was transmitted through the front
wheel to the fork, but the fork itself did not sustain any direct damage.

still test or replace. if you have /any/ confusion on some of the
engineering stuff here, consider having inspection done by someone with
relevant experience.

Quoted message said:

Anyway, I will be replacing the fork (it is being paid for by the owner of
the car), but I wondered if I could still use the old fork and handlebars on
my less expensive training bike.

Thanks for the responses to date.

Sasha

"Qui si parla Campagnolo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Sasha (nospam) said:

Hi,

Assuming I have had a front on crash involving a motor vehicle, how would
I
tell if my carbon forks and handlebars are structurally damaged,
considering
they show no signs of being cosmetically damaged? I have had an accident
with a car (luckily my physical injuries weren't too bad), and the shop
quoting the damage to the bike has included the carbon fork and
handlebars
in the quote, although they show no cosmetic signs of damage. Is it just
a
case of "better replace them to be safe"? If there are no signs of
cracking/bending, can I conclude that they are still OK to ride on?

All opinions welcome.

Sasha

You can bruise carbon fiber, and it can be compromised with no outward
sign of damage, until it fails...and carbon doesn't bend, it breaks.
Good idea to replace...

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

jim beam said:

Sasha said:

Hi,

Assuming I have had a front on crash involving a motor vehicle, how would I
tell if my carbon forks and handlebars are structurally damaged, considering
they show no signs of being cosmetically damaged? I have had an accident
with a car (luckily my physical injuries weren't too bad), and the shop
quoting the damage to the bike has included the carbon fork and handlebars
in the quote, although they show no cosmetic signs of damage. Is it just a
case of "better replace them to be safe"? If there are no signs of
cracking/bending, can I conclude that they are still OK to ride on?

All opinions welcome.

Sasha

yes, they're "being safe". if you want to form your own opinion, the
key to assessing damage in carbon componentry is creaking or cracking
noises. it's /very/ rare for something to break without audible signs
of distress first. for the forks, one test is to take the wheel out and
squeeze the blade ends together with one hand. any creaking or cracking
noises, condemn that fork immediately. same for the bars. [gently]
stand on them to see if they complain.

Does that go for new forks? I recently got a real noisy one when new...

yes, definitely. absolutely no way is that acceptible.

Sasha (nospam) said:

Hi,

Assuming I have had a front on crash involving a motor vehicle, how would I
tell if my carbon forks and handlebars are structurally damaged, considering
they show no signs of being cosmetically damaged? I have had an accident
with a car (luckily my physical injuries weren't too bad), and the shop
quoting the damage to the bike has included the carbon fork and handlebars
in the quote, although they show no cosmetic signs of damage. Is it just a
case of "better replace them to be safe"? If there are no signs of
cracking/bending, can I conclude that they are still OK to ride on?

All opinions welcome.

Sasha

Sasha,

I'd recommend that you watch the highlights of the Paris Roubaix 2006,
particularly the clip where George Hincapie's equipment fails him,
leaving him without the handlebars being attached to the frame. Far
better for the bike to have sugery now, than for you to need to have
surgery later.

-bdbafh

Hi,

Assuming I have had a front on crash involving a motor vehicle, how would I
tell if my carbon forks and handlebars are structurally damaged, considering
they show no signs of being cosmetically damaged? I have had an accident
with a car (luckily my physical injuries weren't too bad), and the shop
quoting the damage to the bike has included the carbon fork and handlebars
in the quote, although they show no cosmetic signs of damage. Is it just a
case of "better replace them to be safe"? If there are no signs of
cracking/bending, can I conclude that they are still OK to ride on?

All opinions welcome.

Sasha

"Sasha" <sashan(nospam)@alphalink.com.au> says...

Quoted message said:

Hi,

Assuming I have had a front on crash involving a motor vehicle, how would I
tell if my carbon forks and handlebars are structurally damaged, considering
they show no signs of being cosmetically damaged? I have had an accident
with a car (luckily my physical injuries weren't too bad), and the shop
quoting the damage to the bike has included the carbon fork and handlebars
in the quote, although they show no cosmetic signs of damage. Is it just a
case of "better replace them to be safe"? If there are no signs of
cracking/bending, can I conclude that they are still OK to ride on?

All opinions welcome.

Sasha

I went through this about a year and a half ago. The thing you should
know is that crashed bicycle parts have zero market value. How much
would you pay for a part that you knew had been in a crash? The same
for warranties. For the most part, all warranties are null and void
once that part has been in an accident with a motor vehicle. Of course,
there is a grey area. If you were hit at the front and the rear
derailleur appears to be undamaged, then it probably is. However,
things like the forks, bars and frame can not be honestly sold or
warrantied without disclosing the fact that they had been in an
accident. They should be replaced courtesy of the insurance company.
Don't feel too sorry for them: the cost of those things is tiny
compared to injuries or what they would pay to repair another motor
vehicle.

If you feel that the parts the insurance company pays for are still
worth owning, you may be able to buy them back for salvage. That's what
I did. They just take your salvage offer and subtract it from the
payout. The parts may be just fine or they may be weakened, so you are
taking on some added risk using them and they should never be sold
without telling the buyer their history.

Quoted message said:

Assuming I have had a front on crash involving a motor vehicle, how would
I tell if my carbon forks and handlebars are structurally damaged,
considering they show no signs of being cosmetically damaged? I have had
an accident with a car (luckily my physical injuries weren't too bad), and
the shop quoting the damage to the bike has included the carbon fork and
handlebars in the quote, although they show no cosmetic signs of damage.
Is it just a case of "better replace them to be safe"? If there are no
signs of cracking/bending, can I conclude that they are still OK to ride
on?

It was easier in the old days; with a steel frame and fork, a frontal crash
into a car would simply bend the frame & fork. The damage was visible &
obvious; you knew they had to be replaced. But nowadays, it's not so easy;
carbon fiber doesn't typically show visible damage until it's beyond merely
obvious, but physically broken. Sometimes the evidence is there, but you
have to look for it... and, if a quick check of your bike makes it appear
everything's intact, your mind says yes, it's OK, go with it, whew, saved a
whole lot of $$$.

But the part of your mind that should be engaged is the part that says, wow,
how would a bike survive an impact like that? If you were actually on the
bike when it ran directly into the car, and the speed was anything above a
walk, there's a very large amount of energy involved, considerably more than
the bike was designed for. It's not enough to think whew, dodged one, bike
seems to ride OK. Assume the worst, because it's one of those things where
your life really does depend on it.

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA

"Sasha" <sashan(nospam)@alphalink.com.au> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Hi,

Assuming I have had a front on crash involving a motor vehicle, how would
I tell if my carbon forks and handlebars are structurally damaged,
considering they show no signs of being cosmetically damaged? I have had
an accident with a car (luckily my physical injuries weren't too bad), and
the shop quoting the damage to the bike has included the carbon fork and
handlebars in the quote, although they show no cosmetic signs of damage.
Is it just a case of "better replace them to be safe"? If there are no
signs of cracking/bending, can I conclude that they are still OK to ride
on?

All opinions welcome.

Sasha

Sorry I should point out that the handlebars are actually aluminium Deda
items, not carbon fibre. My understanding of aluminium is that it will
simply crack if hit hard enough, rather than bend ie, it dosen't have any
elastic qualities. At least this is my experience with aluminium automotive
components. Any metallurgists out there? I have visually inspected the bars,
and measured them from various angles, and they seem ok, which is the reason
I ask about structural damage.

Point taken about the carbon forks, but carbon has a high degree of
flexibility from my understanding. After all, isn't that the reason it is
used in forks? The force of the accident was transmitted through the front
wheel to the fork, but the fork itself did not sustain any direct damage.
Anyway, I will be replacing the fork (it is being paid for by the owner of
the car), but I wondered if I could still use the old fork and handlebars on
my less expensive training bike.

Thanks for the responses to date.

Sasha

"Qui si parla Campagnolo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Sasha (nospam) said:

Hi,

Assuming I have had a front on crash involving a motor vehicle, how would
I
tell if my carbon forks and handlebars are structurally damaged,
considering
they show no signs of being cosmetically damaged? I have had an accident
with a car (luckily my physical injuries weren't too bad), and the shop
quoting the damage to the bike has included the carbon fork and
handlebars
in the quote, although they show no cosmetic signs of damage. Is it just
a
case of "better replace them to be safe"? If there are no signs of
cracking/bending, can I conclude that they are still OK to ride on?

All opinions welcome.

Sasha

You can bruise carbon fiber, and it can be compromised with no outward
sign of damage, until it fails...and carbon doesn't bend, it breaks.
Good idea to replace...