Backstroke and Kicking

I was told by one of the coaches, and possibly by someone in this group too, that when we kick on
the backstroke, we tend to use more muscles, pushing up as well as down, where in freestyle kick,
largely due to out psyche, we tend to exert the muscles only one way. This would be in addition to
the observations that you made, about the geometry and the body position.

"Larry Weisenthal" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I had a bit of an epiphany today, relating to kicking, courtesy of

backstroke.

Quoted message said:

When I was a mediocre swimmer for the University of Louisville, circa

mid-60s,

Quoted message said:

my only events were the 200 back as an individual event and the 100 back

in the

Quoted message said:

medley relay. For whatever reason, I could just swim backstroke much

better

Quoted message said:

than the other strokes. Then I never again swam backstroke, after 1967.

When I

Quoted message said:

started swimming again, when I got into triathlon the summer of 1981, it

was

Quoted message said:

all freestyle. I doubt that I've swum a total of 2000 yards of backstroke

in

Quoted message said:

all the time since 1987. There was the time when I had an impromptu

backstroke

Quoted message said:

race with a lifeguard friend in the 1980s. He was/is a great freestyle swimmer, way out of my
league. Yet I won the backstroke race, even doing

the

Quoted message said:

old backstroke tumble turn, which is the only backstroke turn I knew.

My Dad has gotten to the point where his backstroke is now as fast as his freestyle. He was told
unofficially that he set new national age group records (age 90-94) in the 50 and 100 meter backs
in a masters meet in

August

Quoted message said:

(awaiting official confirmation). What's happened with his freestyle is this...as he's gotten
older, he's developed some forward spinal curvature relating to the osteoporosis of aging. So,
when I look underwater at his freestyle, his body position is not nicely horizontal, as it
previously

was in

Quoted message said:

his 70s. He now drags his hips and legs well under the water.

Now, if you look at even elite backstrokers, they are not nearly so

horizontal

Quoted message said:

in the water as freestylists. Hips and thighs are quite often well under water, a lot like my
Dad's current freestyle. He told me that his

favorite

Quoted message said:

workouts now are ladders, where he'll start with 50 back/50 free and

progress

Quoted message said:

upward to 100 back/100 free, 200 back/200 free, etc. Up and then back

down. So

Quoted message said:

I decided to try this today. To my great surprise, I was almost as fast swimming backstroke as I
was swimming freestyle, despite that fact that

I've

Quoted message said:

been swimming freestyle exclusively for the past 22 years.

When I don't try and "milk" my stroke to gain non-productive extra stroke length, I typically take
21-22 strokes per 25 yards. This is just trying

to

Quoted message said:

swim smoothly and continuously, without any attempt to glide and with a conscious attempt to keep
up momentum. Swimming at the same effort

backstroke,

Quoted message said:

it's 16-17 strokes per 25. So I'm wondering, why is this?

I'm thinking that part of the answer is related to kicking. I have

terribly

Quoted message said:

inflexible ankles and a very poor freestyle kick. My feet can't get

beyond 135

Quoted message said:

degrees, where 180 degrees would be straight back. So they are like sea anchors. When I swim
backstroke, my hips and thighs drag more than they

do in

Quoted message said:

freestyle. I have to kick a lot more (most backstrokers, save for maybe

Tom

Quoted message said:

Dolan, tend to kick pretty vigorously). But I'm thinking that (1) my angle

of

Quoted message said:

attack when backstroke kicking is more efficient than it is in freestyle swimming, because of my
more submerged hip and thigh position, relative to

my

Quoted message said:

shoulders and (2) the "sea anchor" effect is not as pronounced, as my sharply-angled feet are
pointing upward (in the draft of my body), rather

than

Quoted message said:

downward (below the draft of my body).

I'm also thinking that I can maybe improve my freestyle kicking by

swimming

Quoted message said:

more backstroke, as backstroke just seems to require more kicking.

Just some random thoughts. Still trying to determine if there is any

profound

Quoted message said:

lesson in all of this which may be applicable to other inflexible, weak

kicking

Quoted message said:

fitness swimmers.

Larry Weisenthal

Certitude is poison; curiosity is life

Larry Weisenthal said:

Just some random thoughts. Still trying to determine if there is any profound lesson in all of
this which may be applicable to other inflexible, weak kicking fitness swimmers.

You may have a point. My freestyle kick, benefiting from my abnormally flexible ankles, is very
strong. My backstroke kick is an embarrassment.

Ruth Kazez

Larry Weisenthal said:

I'm thinking that part of the answer is related to kicking. I have terribly inflexible ankles and
a very poor freestyle kick. My feet can't get beyond 135 degrees, where 180 degrees would be
straight back. So they are like sea anchors. When I swim backstroke, my hips and thighs drag more
than they do in freestyle. I have to kick a lot more (most backstrokers, save for maybe Tom Dolan,
tend to kick pretty vigorously). But I'm thinking that (1) my angle of attack when backstroke
kicking is more efficient than it is in freestyle swimming, because of my more submerged hip and
thigh position, relative to my shoulders and (2) the "sea anchor" effect is not as pronounced, as
my sharply-angled feet are pointing upward (in the draft of my body), rather than downward (below
the draft of my body).

I have the same inflexible ankles, and my backstroke kick is stronger than my freestyle kick. I
think your reasoning is correct regarding angle of attack. However, I am much faster at freestyle
than backstroke, primarily because my shoulders are also inflexible, so that I can't get good
leverage underwater in backstroke like I can in freestyle.

Quoted message said:

I'm also thinking that I can maybe improve my freestyle kicking by swimming more backstroke, as
backstroke just seems to require more kicking.

I don't see how, because your angle of attack problem will remain.

martin

Like Larry, back is my best stroke. I have been doing about 20% of my workout in back kicking for
about the last month. Today, to my amazement, I was even with a person doing crawl for about 75% of
the length of the pool, while I was kicking only on my back with no kickboard.

As testimony to the "duck meat" on the legs, I can kick at a considerably higher heartrate than when
I swim crawl or breast and it still feels like a "rest" lap.

I can go to about 195 degrees with my toes pointed, but stick to 180 in order not to stress my
destroyed metatarsal/cuboid joints.

I have not timed it, but I don't think that I'm faster swimming backstroke than I am just kicking.

Madelaine

Larry Weisenthal said:

I had a bit of an epiphany today, relating to kicking, courtesy of backstroke.

When I was a mediocre swimmer for the University of Louisville, circa mid-60s, my only events were
the 200 back as an individual event and the 100 back in the medley relay. For whatever reason, I
could just swim backstroke much better than the other strokes. Then I never again swam backstroke,
after 1967. When I started swimming again, when I got into triathlon the summer of 1981, it was
all freestyle. I doubt that I've swum a total of 2000 yards of backstroke in all the time since
1987. There was the time when I had an impromptu backstroke race with a lifeguard friend in the
1980s. He was/is a great freestyle swimmer, way out of my league. Yet I won the backstroke race,
even doing the old backstroke tumble turn, which is the only backstroke turn I knew.

My Dad has gotten to the point where his backstroke is now as fast as his freestyle. He was told
unofficially that he set new national age group records (age 90-94) in the 50 and 100 meter
backs in a masters meet in August (awaiting official confirmation). What's happened with his
freestyle is this...as he's gotten older, he's developed some forward spinal curvature relating
to the osteoporosis of aging. So, when I look underwater at his freestyle, his body position is
not nicely horizontal, as it previously was in his 70s. He now drags his hips and legs well
under the water.

Now, if you look at even elite backstrokers, they are not nearly so horizontal in the water as
freestylists. Hips and thighs are quite often well under water, a lot like my Dad's current
freestyle. He told me that his favorite workouts now are ladders, where he'll start with 50
back/50 free and progress upward to 100 back/100 free, 200 back/200 free, etc. Up and then back
down. So I decided to try this today. To my great surprise, I was almost as fast swimming
backstroke as I was swimming freestyle, despite that fact that I've been swimming freestyle
exclusively for the past 22 years.

When I don't try and "milk" my stroke to gain non-productive extra stroke length, I typically take
21-22 strokes per 25 yards. This is just trying to swim smoothly and continuously, without any
attempt to glide and with a conscious attempt to keep up momentum. Swimming at the same effort
backstroke, it's 16-17 strokes per 25. So I'm wondering, why is this?

I'm thinking that part of the answer is related to kicking. I have terribly inflexible ankles and
a very poor freestyle kick. My feet can't get beyond 135 degrees, where 180 degrees would be
straight back. So they are like sea anchors. When I swim backstroke, my hips and thighs drag more
than they do in freestyle. I have to kick a lot more (most backstrokers, save for maybe Tom Dolan,
tend to kick pretty vigorously). But I'm thinking that (1) my angle of attack when backstroke
kicking is more efficient than it is in freestyle swimming, because of my more submerged hip and
thigh position, relative to my shoulders and (2) the "sea anchor" effect is not as pronounced, as
my sharply-angled feet are pointing upward (in the draft of my body), rather than downward (below
the draft of my body).

I'm also thinking that I can maybe improve my freestyle kicking by swimming more backstroke, as
backstroke just seems to require more kicking.

Just some random thoughts. Still trying to determine if there is any profound lesson in all of
this which may be applicable to other inflexible, weak kicking fitness swimmers.

Larry Weisenthal

Certitude is poison; curiosity is life

In rtk said:

You may have a point. My freestyle kick, benefiting from my abnormally flexible ankles, is very
strong. My backstroke kick is an embarrassment.

I'm in your camp, Ruth. I've written here before about my normal crawl kick. It's ok, though not
fantastic. But my backcrawl kick is horrid. I go less than half speed, with or without a kickboard.
And my back dolphin kick is even worse.

Ross

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I can go to about 195 degrees with my toes pointed<<

I've read papers correlating various anthropomorphic measurements (hand size, height, etc.) to
performance, but I've not been able to find a study correlating range of motion (flexibility) of
ankles with full stroke swimming performance. I'm pretty sure that there would be a significant
correlation. But certainly ankle flexibility would correlate with overall joint flexibility, so it
would be difficult to conclude that it was the ankle flexibility, per se, which made the difference.
It would be simpler and cleaner to compare ankle flexibility with kick only times...I can't imagine
that there wouldn't be a very strong correlation there.

- Larry

[email hidden] (Larry Weisenthal) wrote in message

Quoted message said:

I'm also thinking that I can maybe improve my freestyle kicking by swimming more backstroke, as
backstroke just seems to require more kicking.

I was looking for a quote by Marty Hull that I read recently. I couldn't find it. But Dr. Hull
stated in the quote how well Jeff Rouse felt about his kick at the 1996 Olympics. Jeff said that the
downbeat of his kick in freestyle felt more powerful and propulsive than it ever had, and Dr. Hull
attributed that to all the kicking he had made them do on their BACKS. (Dr. Hull consulted to the
Stanford swim program at that time and Jeff was part of that group)

So kicking on your back to get better at kicking on your stomach is embraced by some at the highest
levels of the sport. I think it's for the reasons you say: on your back your hips are usually lower
in the water, and your feet do not break the surface of the water when kicking. So that gives a very
good range of motion with lots of resistance for the upbeat, (using quadricept muscles mainly),
which translates into a better downbeat in freestyle.

Also, FYI, I've had some private email correspondence with Dr. Yanai, of the now famous (imfamous?)
"Yanai Torque". His latest research focusses on whether the upbeat of a kick during freestyle is
propulsive or not. So I look forward to his next paper.

Eric

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I've had some private email correspondence with Dr. Yanai... <<

Who is well on his way to becoming the most important researcher in the history of swimming
biomechanics.

1. He quantified rotator cuff impingement as to its frequency in different swimmers and in the same
swimmers at different times and showed where in the stroke cycle impingement was most prominent,
therefore focusing attention on what types of stroke modifications will be most effective in
reducing overall impingement.

2. He was the first to attempt to quantify buoyant and sinking torques during the stroke cycle and
thus provided an elegant biomechanical explanation for the empiric observation that head lifting
and straight arm recoveries can help maintain horizontal position in the water, instead of
degrading it, as had been previously supposed.

- Larry Larry Weisenthal

Certitude is poison; curiosity is life