Form questions

"Tom Anderson" <[email hidden]> schreef:

Quoted message said:

Front squats - where the hell do i rest the bar?

The arms should fix the bar at the upper chest. Difficult, though.
Standing is not that hard, but descending is. The chest has the tendency to
go a bit forward, so its difficult to maintain balance.

Quoted message said:

It seems it should be resting on my shoulders, so i don't even really need
my hands to keep it in place:

Yes, shoulders, upper pecs.

Quoted message said:

http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/OlympicLifts/ElbowPosition.html

Quoted message said:

I'm not sure i've got that right, though - i end up with quite a bit of
load pushing my arms down, so the limiting factor on the lift is my arms,
not my legs, which doesn't seem right.

Thats right. And for some people, even regular squats have limiting factor,
the lower back.

Quoted message said:

Well, not quite, but it's enough that it's uncomfortable, which i'd like
to avoid if possible.

I am with you on this one. I never liked them.
BTW, front squats should actually be performed by weightlifters. To tell you
the truth, i have no idea how many sets or reps they do, but i noticed that
during a lift, the part that is the squat, is the concentric part, NOT the
eccentric, which is the hardest, because its easy to lose balance. I suspect
your hams have to be very flexible to do this.

Quoted message said:

Now, ossibly this is because i have pathetic and miniscule deltoids, but
maybe i'm doing it wrong. Can anyone describe the positioning in a bit
more detail? Should the bar be right against my neck? Should i be leaning
back slightly?

Difficult to answer.
But why do you try them in the first place, its obvious that you dont like
them.

Quoted message said:

Shoulder press - should my back be vertical, or leaning back?

Vertical, with a lordoic curve.
High inclines are also possible.
If you do them seated, do not place the upper legs parallel to the floor.
Keep a 45 degree angle. This will move the hip backward, and the lordoic
curve is easier to maintain.

Quoted message said:

I do this with dumbbells, standing. All the pictures i've seen have the
back vertical, but the machines (ack spit) all have sightly reclining
seats, so i wonder if there's something in that.

It can be more comfortable. Try it a few times. I always use a front press
machine, with the seat about 10 degrees reclining.

Quoted message said:

Upright row - what should my elbows be doing?

Upwards/outwards.

Quoted message said:

exrx says 'elbows leading', but i'm not sure what that means.

Me neither.

Quoted message said:

Should i be keeping them forward, backward, high, low, what?

Focus on bringing the bar to your chest, choose a grip not too narrow, and
forget about the elbows. The grip will dictate where the elbows go when the
bar goes up.

Quoted message said:

Also, what, if any, aspect of the movement determines the relative
contributions of the deltoids and the trapezii?

Upright rows are one of the few "pulling" movements for the delts. You
actually start the movement with a shrug.

Quoted message said:

I think my traps have got noticeably bigger, whereas my delts haven't, so i
suspect i'm doing this wrong.

No, you have been doing them right. Upright rows are actally a trap
exercise.
If you want delts, try laterals.

Quoted message said:

Or maybe it's just that my shoulders are collapsing and it's an optical
illusion.

You wish 😉

----
Pete

In article <[email hidden]>,

Pete said:

"Tom Anderson" <[email hidden]> schreef:

Quoted message said:

Front squats - where the hell do i rest the bar?

The arms should fix the bar at the upper chest. Difficult, though.
Standing is not that hard, but descending is. The chest has the tendency to
go a bit forward, so its difficult to maintain balance.

Quoted message said:

It seems it should be resting on my shoulders, so i don't even really need
my hands to keep it in place:

Yes, shoulders, upper pecs.

Shoulders - not the chest. The elbows come as high as possible in order
to get the bar there.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/OlympicLifts/ElbowPosition.html

Quoted message said:

I'm not sure i've got that right, though - i end up with quite a bit of
load pushing my arms down, so the limiting factor on the lift is my arms,
not my legs, which doesn't seem right.

Thats right. And for some people, even regular squats have limiting factor,
the lower back.

You have to develop flexibility. For a bodybuilder the size of the upper
arm can limit the ability to rack the bar. many bodybuilders use a
'cossack' grip to overcome this.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Well, not quite, but it's enough that it's uncomfortable, which i'd like
to avoid if possible.

I am with you on this one. I never liked them.
BTW, front squats should actually be performed by weightlifters. To tell you
the truth, i have no idea how many sets or reps they do, but i noticed that
during a lift, the part that is the squat, is the concentric part, NOT the
eccentric, which is the hardest, because its easy to lose balance. I suspect
your hams have to be very flexible to do this.

Typically 3-5 sets of 5-3 reps. For a weightlifter 5 reps is as much
endurance as is necessary.

--
Keith

Hobbes said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Pete said:

"Tom Anderson" <[email hidden]> schreef:

Quoted message said:

Front squats - where the hell do i rest the bar?

The arms should fix the bar at the upper chest. Difficult, though.
Standing is not that hard, but descending is. The chest has the tendency to
go a bit forward, so its difficult to maintain balance.

Quoted message said:

It seems it should be resting on my shoulders, so i don't even really need
my hands to keep it in place:

Yes, shoulders, upper pecs.

Shoulders - not the chest. The elbows come as high as possible in order
to get the bar there.

On the deltoids, actually. It can be painful. One of these helps:

http://www.adfit.com/stingray/index.asp

In article <[email hidden]>,

JMW said:

Hobbes said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Pete said:

"Tom Anderson" <[email hidden]> schreef:

> Front squats - where the hell do i rest the bar?

The arms should fix the bar at the upper chest. Difficult, though.
Standing is not that hard, but descending is. The chest has the tendency
to
go a bit forward, so its difficult to maintain balance.

> It seems it should be resting on my shoulders, so i don't even really
> need
> my hands to keep it in place:

Yes, shoulders, upper pecs.

Shoulders - not the chest. The elbows come as high as possible in order
to get the bar there.

On the deltoids, actually. It can be painful. One of these helps:

http://www.adfit.com/stingray/index.asp

Deltoids - right. For the typical weightlifter the stingray isn't
necessary - there is enough muscle to work quite well. I find that if
there isn't much delt muscle then they don't use much weight in the
front squat anyhow.

I have a stingray - bought it for a wrestler I was training to use who
complained about sore shoulders. Turned out it was more just 'I don't
like to work hard and squat.' than a real shoulder issue, so the
stingray is sitting on a shelf in a storage room.

OTOH - the bar on the collarbone hurts and the stingray could have some
utility there.

--
Keith

"Tom Anderson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Hi all,

Three questions on correct form, hopefully not too stupid ...

Front squats - where the hell do i rest the bar? It seems it should be
resting on my shoulders, so i don't even really need my hands to keep it
in place:

http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/OlympicLifts/ElbowPosition.html

I'm not sure i've got that right, though - i end up with quite a bit of
load pushing my arms down, so the limiting factor on the lift is my arms,
not my legs, which doesn't seem right. Well, not quite, but it's enough
that it's uncomfortable, which i'd like to avoid if possible. Now, ossibly
this is because i have pathetic and miniscule deltoids, but maybe i'm
doing it wrong. Can anyone describe the positioning in a bit more detail?
Should the bar be right against my neck? Should i be leaning back
slightly?

Shoulder press - should my back be vertical, or leaning back? I do this
with dumbbells, standing. All the pictures i've seen have the back
vertical, but the machines (ack spit) all have sightly reclining seats, so
i wonder if there's something in that.

If the back of the machine didn't lean back, there wouldn't be much weight
on it.

Keep doing them the way you are and don't worry about comparing to the
seated version.

A little leaning back is OK - best to keep the glutes tight as it heelps
prevent hurting the back.

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com

Quoted message said:

Upright row - what should my elbows be doing? exrx says 'elbows leading',
but i'm not sure what that means. Should i be keeping them forward,
backward, high, low, what? Also, what, if any, aspect of the movement
determines the relative contributions of the deltoids and the trapezii? I
think my traps have got noticeably bigger, whereas my delts haven't, so i
suspect i'm doing this wrong. Or maybe it's just that my shoulders are
collapsing and it's an optical illusion.

Thanks,
tom

--
I'm not quite sure how that works but I like it ...

On Wed, 14 Jun 2006 14:01:18 -0600, Hobbes <[email hidden]>
wrote in misc.fitness.weights:

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

JMW said:

Hobbes said:

In article <[email hidden]>,
"Pete" <[email hidden]> wrote:

> "Tom Anderson" <[email hidden]> schreef:
>
> > Front squats - where the hell do i rest the bar?
>
> The arms should fix the bar at the upper chest. Difficult, though.
> Standing is not that hard, but descending is. The chest has the tendency
> to
> go a bit forward, so its difficult to maintain balance.
>
> > It seems it should be resting on my shoulders, so i don't even really
> > need
> > my hands to keep it in place:
>
> Yes, shoulders, upper pecs.

Shoulders - not the chest. The elbows come as high as possible in order
to get the bar there.

On the deltoids, actually. It can be painful. One of these helps:

http://www.adfit.com/stingray/index.asp

Deltoids - right. For the typical weightlifter the stingray isn't
necessary - there is enough muscle to work quite well. I find that if
there isn't much delt muscle then they don't use much weight in the
front squat anyhow.

I have a stingray - bought it for a wrestler I was training to use who
complained about sore shoulders. Turned out it was more just 'I don't
like to work hard and squat.' than a real shoulder issue, so the
stingray is sitting on a shelf in a storage room.

OTOH - the bar on the collarbone hurts and the stingray could have some
utility there.

Well, I used to use the Cossack grip but now use the standard
weightlifting grip. I found that moving my grip way in on the bar
made it much easier to use the conventional grip. Plus, my wrist
flexibility has increased over time.

In article <[email hidden]>,

John Hanson said:

On Wed, 14 Jun 2006 14:01:18 -0600, Hobbes <[email hidden]>
wrote in misc.fitness.weights:

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

JMW said:

Hobbes <[email hidden]> wrote:

>In article <[email hidden]>,
> "Pete" <[email hidden]> wrote:
>
>> "Tom Anderson" <[email hidden]> schreef:
>>
>> > Front squats - where the hell do i rest the bar?
>>
>> The arms should fix the bar at the upper chest. Difficult, though.
>> Standing is not that hard, but descending is. The chest has the
>> tendency
>> to
>> go a bit forward, so its difficult to maintain balance.
>>
>> > It seems it should be resting on my shoulders, so i don't even really
>> > need
>> > my hands to keep it in place:
>>
>> Yes, shoulders, upper pecs.
>
>Shoulders - not the chest. The elbows come as high as possible in order
>to get the bar there.

On the deltoids, actually. It can be painful. One of these helps:

http://www.adfit.com/stingray/index.asp

Deltoids - right. For the typical weightlifter the stingray isn't
necessary - there is enough muscle to work quite well. I find that if
there isn't much delt muscle then they don't use much weight in the
front squat anyhow.

I have a stingray - bought it for a wrestler I was training to use who
complained about sore shoulders. Turned out it was more just 'I don't
like to work hard and squat.' than a real shoulder issue, so the
stingray is sitting on a shelf in a storage room.

OTOH - the bar on the collarbone hurts and the stingray could have some
utility there.

Well, I used to use the Cossack grip but now use the standard
weightlifting grip. I found that moving my grip way in on the bar
made it much easier to use the conventional grip. Plus, my wrist
flexibility has increased over time.

Yeah, it just takes time. And it's good for keeping carpal tunnel at bay!

--
Keith

Thanks to everyone for their answers - i guess i'm more or less doing
things right with the squat and the shoulder press, which is good to know.

Pete said:

"Tom Anderson" <[email hidden]> schreef:

Quoted message said:

Front squats - where the hell do i rest the bar?

The arms should fix the bar at the upper chest. Difficult, though.
Standing is not that hard, but descending is. The chest has the tendency to
go a bit forward, so its difficult to maintain balance.

Quoted message said:

It seems it should be resting on my shoulders, so i don't even really need
my hands to keep it in place:

Yes, shoulders, upper pecs.

I'm going to have to work on this. I think i need to push my shoulders
forward a bit more to get the bar balanced, and pay attention to keeping
it there; i tend to wind up with the bar creeping forward, where my arms
have to do more work to hold it.

Grip-wise, i have my palms towards me, just inside my collarbone, so
fairly narrow. Holding the bar outside my shoulders feels weird; maybe my
elbows aren't flexible enough. Ditto the olympic style; i can't bend my
arm far enough (my biceps must be too big - i wish!). Cossack style =
crazy, so it's somewhat unstable narrow underhand grip for now. With the
bar resting on the shoulders properly, it shouldn't matter much anyway.

Quoted message said:

But why do you try them in the first place, its obvious that you dont
like them.

I think they're a good exercise; more of a balance challenge than a rear
squat.

Also, my gym doesn't have a squat rack or similar; i have to pick up from
the storage rack, which isn't so practical for a rear squat. Or i could
learn to clean or something. Or get a new gym (i'm moving house in a
couple of months, so will do that then anyway).

Anyway, it's a squat - it's not about liking it.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Upright row - what should my elbows be doing?

Upwards/outwards.

Quoted message said:

exrx says 'elbows leading', but i'm not sure what that means.

Me neither.

Quoted message said:

Should i be keeping them forward, backward, high, low, what?

Focus on bringing the bar to your chest, choose a grip not too narrow,
and forget about the elbows. The grip will dictate where the elbows go
when the bar goes up.

I'm doing this with dumbbells, so i don't have a width of grip as such,
but from what you (and ExRx, now i look again) say, it sounds like i've
been doing them too narrow - hands at nipple width rather than shoulder
width.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I think my traps have got noticeably bigger, whereas my delts haven't, so i
suspect i'm doing this wrong.

No, you have been doing them right. Upright rows are actally a trap
exercise. If you want delts, try laterals.

Lateral raises? An isolation? INFIDEL!

tom

--
:-( bad :-) bad :-| good

"Hobbes" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

John Hanson said:

On Wed, 14 Jun 2006 14:01:18 -0600, Hobbes <[email hidden]>
wrote in misc.fitness.weights:

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,
JMW <[email hidden]> wrote:

> Hobbes <[email hidden]> wrote:
>
> >In article <[email hidden]>,
> > "Pete" <[email hidden]> wrote:
> >
> >> "Tom Anderson" <[email hidden]> schreef:
> >>
> >> > Front squats - where the hell do i rest the bar?
> >>
> >> The arms should fix the bar at the upper chest. Difficult, though.
> >> Standing is not that hard, but descending is. The chest has the
> >> tendency
> >> to
> >> go a bit forward, so its difficult to maintain balance.
> >>
> >> > It seems it should be resting on my shoulders, so i don't even
> >> > really
> >> > need
> >> > my hands to keep it in place:
> >>
> >> Yes, shoulders, upper pecs.
> >
> >Shoulders - not the chest. The elbows come as high as possible in
> >order
> >to get the bar there.
>
> On the deltoids, actually. It can be painful. One of these helps:
>
> http://www.adfit.com/stingray/index.asp

Deltoids - right. For the typical weightlifter the stingray isn't
necessary - there is enough muscle to work quite well. I find that if
there isn't much delt muscle then they don't use much weight in the
front squat anyhow.

I have a stingray - bought it for a wrestler I was training to use who
complained about sore shoulders. Turned out it was more just 'I don't
like to work hard and squat.' than a real shoulder issue, so the
stingray is sitting on a shelf in a storage room.

OTOH - the bar on the collarbone hurts and the stingray could have some
utility there.

Well, I used to use the Cossack grip but now use the standard
weightlifting grip. I found that moving my grip way in on the bar
made it much easier to use the conventional grip. Plus, my wrist
flexibility has increased over time.

Yeah, it just takes time. And it's good for keeping carpal tunnel at bay!

Olympic weightlifting is good for preventing carpal tunnel syndrome? Next
thing you know, you'll be telling us that kettlebell swings are good for
preventing back injuries!

🙂

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com