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Dunking Chocolate

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General fitness, health and nutrition
Published
24 May 2006
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12 June 2006
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aem
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  1. For decadence, it's hard to beat chocolate. A tv show reminded me that
    one afternoon long ago I had still-warm Spanish churros dunked bite by
    bite in a cup of hot chocolate, and it made for a wonderful afternoon.
    This page has recipes for the churros and the chocolate.
    http://www.xmission.com/~dderhak/recipe/churros.htm

    The chocolate sauce is this, heated, stirred, thickened:

    4 oz. dark chocolate, chopped
    2 cups milk
    1 tbsp cornstarch (also known as cornflour and is the powder that
    causes the thickening)
    4 tbsp sugar

    Now I'm not a chocolate aficionado, so when I go to my Trader Joe's (or
    other likely place), just what kind of chocolate should I be looking
    for? Assuming there will be an array of dark chocolates, how do I
    choose? -aem

  2. at Wed, 24 May 2006 19:42:36 GMT in <1148499756.487472.283390
    @u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>, [email hidden] (aem) wrote :

    Quoted message said:

    For decadence, it's hard to beat chocolate. A tv show reminded me that
    one afternoon long ago I had still-warm Spanish churros dunked bite by
    bite in a cup of hot chocolate, and it made for a wonderful afternoon.
    This page has recipes for the churros and the chocolate.
    http://www.xmission.com/~dderhak/recipe/churros.htm

    The chocolate sauce is this, heated, stirred, thickened:

    4 oz. dark chocolate, chopped
    2 cups milk
    1 tbsp cornstarch (also known as cornflour and is the powder that
    causes the thickening)
    4 tbsp sugar

    Now I'm not a chocolate aficionado, so when I go to my Trader Joe's (or
    other likely place), just what kind of chocolate should I be looking
    for? Assuming there will be an array of dark chocolates, how do I
    choose? -aem

    4 oz - 2 cups milk? Not a very strong dip. That's more like a mild
    chocolate pudding recipe. If you want a strong flavour, therefore, you need
    a powerful chocolate, especially since it has added sugar. Really, you
    should consider a quality unsweetened chocolate. If your churros have
    cinnamon, then Domori's 100% (style line) is probably the best. Otherwise
    the most intense and IMHO best unsweetened is Michel Cluizel Noir Infini.
    DO NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES use Baker's brand which is absolutely
    horrible. A good clue: if an unsweetened chocolate is truly inedible
    straight, then it's simply a bad chocolate, period.

    If the 100% proves too strong for you, again, with the addition of cinnamon
    to the churros, Dagoba's Eclipse 87% is good or for even sweeter you might
    try Domori Carenero Superior. If you're not adding cinnamon, I'd go with
    Galler 85% in the high-percentage category and with Cote D'Or Noir de Noir
    Intense 70% in the standard-percentage range. BTW, although all the
    chocolates here are excellent for straight eating and I'd recommend any of
    them, I've specifically optimised the exact choice for your particular
    application. For straight eating there are IMHO still better chocolates at
    these percentages - Lindt Excellence 85% and Cluizel Noir 72% respectively.
    There's also a 70% varietal better even than the Cluizel again IMHO -
    Amedei Chuao - but this is strongly characteristic and not a general-
    purpose chocolate.

    All chocolates I mention can be gotten from http://www.chocosphere.com. I
    might also mention that Trader Joe's isn't really a good source for
    chocolate - both because their stocks are inconsistent and because they
    don't have a broad range of truly first-rate chocolates.

    As specified your mixture might be a bit grainy if you use regular
    granulated sugar. I'd probably use powdered sugar (such that I used any
    sugar at all) instead for a smoother consistency.

    --
    Alex Rast
    [email hidden]
    (remove d., .7, not, and .NOSPAM to reply)

  3. Alex Rast said:

    4 oz - 2 cups milk? Not a very strong dip. That's more like a mild
    chocolate pudding recipe. If you want a strong flavour, therefore, you need
    a powerful chocolate, especially since it has added sugar. Really, you
    should consider a quality unsweetened chocolate.

    Unsweetened? Does dark chocolate come both sweetened and unsweetened?
    I gather you're saying unsweetened is stronger flavored....

    Quoted message said:

    If your churros have
    cinnamon, then Domori's 100% (style line) is probably the best.

    You can mix cinammon with sugar to sprinkle over the churros. It
    doesn't go in the dough itself.

    I'm writing these brand names down, thanks.

    Quoted message said:


    All chocolates I mention can be gotten from http://www.chocosphere.com. I
    might also mention that Trader Joe's isn't really a good source for
    chocolate - both because their stocks are inconsistent and because they
    don't have a broad range of truly first-rate chocolates.

    Now that I have specific things to look for I can look other places,
    too. -aem

  4. aem said:
    Alex Rast said:

    4 oz - 2 cups milk? Not a very strong dip. That's more like a mild
    chocolate pudding recipe. If you want a strong flavour, therefore, you need
    a powerful chocolate, especially since it has added sugar. Really, you
    should consider a quality unsweetened chocolate.

    Unsweetened? Does dark chocolate come both sweetened and unsweetened?
    I gather you're saying unsweetened is stronger flavored....

    When a chocolate has a percentage and 100- that percentage (say, C %) is
    the amount of sugar. So when 100 - C % approaches zero, it is
    approaching the unsweetened state. Usually C is max 99%.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    If your churros have
    cinnamon, then Domori's 100% (style line) is probably the best.

    You can mix cinammon with sugar to sprinkle over the churros. It
    doesn't go in the dough itself.

    I'm writing these brand names down, thanks.

    I would like to add, the Cruizel Mitchel tends to have a smokey hint,
    which I do not like.

    I adore Valrhona (France), but think it is a pitty to cook with it, even
    though my chocolate book calls for specific Valrhona chocolates for each
    recipe. Like, filled chocolates calls for a specific chocolate which has
    a higher fat content than the others, so it shines better. The mousse is
    made with one which is purely the criollo cocoa bean. The hot chocolate
    is made with one which is purely the trinitario bean, etc...
    I would not use cornstarch or any other starch to thicken a chocolate
    sauce, I would just find the ratio between chocolate and liquid (nothing
    less fatty than whole-milk) that still has the desired viscosity.

    Lindt (Switzerland) is ok for cooking and they have a 99%, but 85%
    should be fine for a chocolate sauce.

    Dolfin (Belgium) is also really good and have interesting packaging.

    Neuhaus (Belgium) is boring to eat pure, but fine for cooking.

    Novi (Italy) has some dull standard chocs, but some excellent single
    region chocolates. The one from Ghana is amazing.

    Valrhona's single estate chocolates are number 1, and it is a sin to
    ruin them by mixing with other things.

    --
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Music, Recipes, Photos, and more:

    http://www.sequoiagrove.dk

    "You don´t frighten us, English pig-dogs! Go and boil your bottoms, sons
    of a silly person. I blow my nose at you, so-called Arthur-king, you and
    all your silly English kaniggets. Thppppt!"
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------

  5. "Michael Archon Sequoia Nielsen" <[email hidden]> wrote in
    message news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Lindt (Switzerland) is ok for cooking and they
    have a 99%, but 85% should be fine for a
    chocolate sauce.

    The chocolate "buttons" are really good for cooking -- I've been quite
    pleased.

    Quoted message said:

    Dolfin (Belgium) is also really good and have
    interesting packaging.

    Neuhaus (Belgium) is boring to eat pure, but
    fine for cooking.

    Cote d'Or is quite good, too -- the Noir de Noir is most excellent for
    cooking and eating. I don't remember the percentage on it at the moment,
    and I think we're out ...

    Quoted message said:

    Novi (Italy) has some dull standard chocs, but
    some excellent single region chocolates. The one
    from Ghana is amazing.

    Valrhona's single estate chocolates are number 1,
    and it is a sin to ruin them by mixing with other things.

    I haven't found Valrhona in large, cooking-sized bars here; I see the
    occasional "eating" bar, but consider those to be too expensive to cook
    with. I wish I could find the couverture.

    Michael, are you finding these chocolates in DK? I can get Lindt, but I'm
    not finding much else by way of "high-end" chocolates here. I've been
    reduced to buying on the infrequent occasions when I'm in the US and
    chivvying the husband to purchase when he's in Belgium.

    -j

  6. jacqui{JB} said:

    "Michael Archon Sequoia Nielsen" <[email hidden]> wrote in
    message news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Lindt (Switzerland) is ok for cooking and they
    have a 99%, but 85% should be fine for a
    chocolate sauce.

    The chocolate "buttons" are really good for cooking -- I've been quite
    pleased.

    From Lindt?

    The only ones I know are Vekao, not chocolate (from Odense?)

    Quoted message said:

    Cote d'Or is quite good, too -- the Noir de Noir is most excellent for
    cooking and eating. I don't remember the percentage on it at the moment,
    and I think we're out ...

    I have tried some Cote D'or and didn't like it. Fake vanilla I believe.
    Noir de Noir is 56%.

    Quoted message said:

    Michael, are you finding these chocolates in DK? I can get Lindt, but I'm
    not finding much else by way of "high-end" chocolates here. I've been
    reduced to buying on the infrequent occasions when I'm in the US and
    chivvying the husband to purchase when he's in Belgium.

    I buy Valrhona in Salling and Kronen. I can get the 1 kg bars, but I
    usually buy the estate versions and the 71% Amer Noir. When I cook I get
    something like Lindt.

    Novi Ghana can be found at the butcher or Italian Gourmet import shops
    (but it is cheaper to buy lots when in Italy at e.g. Milano Airport -
    about 2 euro per 100 gram). Thre's also an Ecuador and something else,
    but they are not as good as Ghana.

    Dolfin is something I found in Belgium to be much better than Neuhaus.

    Neuhaus can be bought at H.J Hansen wine store.

    --
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Music, Recipes, Photos, and more:

    http://www.sequoiagrove.dk

    "You don´t frighten us, English pig-dogs! Go and boil your bottoms, sons
    of a silly person. I blow my nose at you, so-called Arthur-king, you and
    all your silly English kaniggets. Thppppt!"
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------

  7. at Thu, 25 May 2006 10:41:48 GMT in
    <[email hidden]>, [email hidden]
    (Michael Archon Sequoia Nielsen) wrote :

    Quoted message said:
    aem said:
    Alex Rast said:

    4 oz - 2 cups milk? Not a very strong dip. That's more like a mild
    chocolate pudding recipe. If you want a strong flavour, therefore,
    you need a powerful chocolate, especially since it has added sugar.
    Really, you should consider a quality unsweetened chocolate.

    Unsweetened? Does dark chocolate come both sweetened and unsweetened?
    I gather you're saying unsweetened is stronger flavored....

    Yup - dark chocolate comes in both. Unsweetened is stronger flavoured - and
    not just by the percentage difference. Here's why. Chocolate itself has 2
    parts - cocoa butter (the fat) and defatted cocoa solids. It's the latter
    that contribute the vast bulk of the flavour. Now, when a manufacturer
    lists cocoa solids percentage on the label, it means the percentage of both
    of these ingredients.

    However, for good texture, a chocolate has to have a certain minimum of
    cocoa butter - often considered to be around 35%, and some have up to 55%.
    Meanwhile, pure chocolate has about 50-55% cocoa butter. So it has
    something in the neighbourhood of 45-50% defatted cocoa solids. Meanwhile,
    a sweetened chocolate must perforce maintain the approximately 35-40% cocoa
    butter minimum. If, then, you add sugar, say, to create a 70% bar, then
    that leaves 30-35% of the total bar left for defatted cocoa solids. Hence
    the ratio of cocoa butter to defatted cocoa powder is somewhere from 1:1 to
    4:3. 1:1 is a close approximation to unsweetened chocolate, but 4:3 favours
    cocoa butter - and so the chocolate tastes even weaker, relative to its
    percentage, than an unsweetened chocolate would at the same concentration.
    Below 70% cocoa solids, then, as I think you can see, things will quickly
    get worse in a hurry - so that at a seemingly robust 50% cocoa solids the
    chocolate can have at most a feeble 15% defatted cocoa solids (flavour
    component) and will certainly end up tasting pretty weak in comparison.
    Diluting it still further by mixing it in with other ingredients
    (especially milk) only would make a bad situation worse. That's why
    unsweetened chocolate gives you far more chocolate punch.

    Quoted message said:

    When a chocolate has a percentage and 100- that percentage (say, C %) is
    the amount of sugar. So when 100 - C % approaches zero, it is
    approaching the unsweetened state. Usually C is max 99%.

    Domori, Bonnat, and Slitti all make full-fledged 100% bars. Cluizel's is
    99% as is Lindt's.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    I'm writing these brand names down, thanks.

    I would like to add, the Cruizel Mitchel tends to have a smokey hint,
    which I do not like.

    Michel Cluizel has comparatively little smokiness compared to the really
    dark roasters like Pralus. But he does roast a little darker than the light
    roasters - Valrhona and Scharffen Berger.

    Quoted message said:

    I adore Valrhona (France), but think it is a pitty to cook with it, even
    though my chocolate book calls for specific Valrhona chocolates for each
    recipe.

    Yeah - so you like a light-roast, fruity chocolate. If you want to get
    really specific, you might try to head for the fruitiest beans - Sur Del
    Lago Clasificado, Porcelana, and Colombia Nacional. Guittard produces
    superb versions of the Sur Del Lago and Colombia varietals, and although
    you might be tempted to splurge for the Valrhona Porcelana instead get
    Domori's Porcelana which is not only cheaper but far better (and fruitier)

    Valrhona is very good to cook with, and while in some ways nothing beats
    straight chocolate, it pays off to use a high-quality chocolate in baking
    and cooking as opposed to a cheap brand. You will notice the difference
    easily as long as you're not clumsy and scorch the chocolate. Valrhona is
    particularly well-suited, btw, because with its light roast it will take
    more baking time before the flavour starts to diminish.

    Quoted message said:

    Like, filled chocolates calls for a specific chocolate which has
    a higher fat content than the others, so it shines better. The mousse is
    made with one which is purely the criollo cocoa bean.

    Manjari? Manjari is sourced from Madagascar beans which I agree are
    particularly well-suited for mousse. I actually have to say, though, that
    there are better Madagascar chocolates. Best is Amedei's - and it will be
    wondrous indeed in a mousse. Next best is (surprise!) Lindt's.

    Quoted message said:

    The hot chocolate
    is made with one which is purely the trinitario bean, etc...

    Caraibe. Again, good choice. Trinitarios tend to have a spicy
    characteristic which in a hot chocolate comes out very well. However, for a
    hot chocolate I'd dial up the intensity over the comparatively mild Caraibe
    and use something like Dagoba's Eclipse 87%. And with hot chocolate a dark
    roast is also desirable: dark roast complements dairy very well. In this
    regard Pralus is the clear winner, especially Pralus Indonesie.

    Quoted message said:

    I would not use cornstarch or any other starch to thicken a chocolate
    sauce, I would just find the ratio between chocolate and liquid (nothing
    less fatty than whole-milk) that still has the desired viscosity.

    Yeah, as I said before it's like chocolate pudding. However, Spanish
    tradition commonly puts cornstarch in chocolate so I'm not disputing the
    authenticity of the approach.

    Quoted message said:

    Lindt (Switzerland) is ok for cooking and they have a 99%, but 85%
    should be fine for a chocolate sauce.

    The 85% is an awe-inspiring chocolate, the best 85% in the business.
    Lindt' 99% isn't quite as good as Cluizel's or Domori's 100% but it's not a
    bad effort by any means. However, it does taste suspiciously Dutch. This is
    something you'll either like or not. Dutch chocolate always has a much
    darker, almost black, colour and a distinctive metallic twang to the
    flavour. The flavour is inevitably milder, belying the dark colour, and
    generally less bitter.

    Quoted message said:

    Dolfin (Belgium) is also really good and have interesting packaging.

    Dolfin's 70% is excellent, although IMHO a poor match for this particular
    application.

    Quoted message said:

    Neuhaus (Belgium) is boring to eat pure, but fine for cooking.

    The new Neuhaus origin chocolates are in a completely different stratum
    from their regular chocolates which are pretty ho-hum. Both Occumare 71%
    and West Africa 73% are great. Sao Tome is also very good. I was blown away
    - I was never expecting this level of quality from them.

    Quoted message said:

    Novi (Italy) has some dull standard chocs, but some excellent single
    region chocolates. The one from Ghana is amazing.

    Valrhona's single estate chocolates are number 1, and it is a sin to
    ruin them by mixing with other things.

    Actually, single-estate chocolates work very well mixed with other things -
    you just have to be very particular and careful about what you mix with
    them. Single-estate chocolates have very characteristic flavours, which
    means they harmonise well with some ingredients, badly with others. So, in
    Valrhona's case:

    Gran Couva : particularly superb with mint, berries. Disastrous with coffee
    and nuts.

    Ampamakia : a good complement to cinnamon and raisins. Don't mix with
    peanuts, butter, bread, or blackberries.

    Palmira : Perhaps even better than Ampamakia with raisins and currants.
    Also good with sweet, caramelly flavours. Mixing with dairy tends to make
    it washed out. Spices like cinnamon or clove will also clash.

    Porcelana : Literally a match made in heaven for chestnuts. Very suitable,
    in fact, with all varieties of nuts. Cream however will really obliterate
    the flavour. Never use with citrus either.

    Chuao : Now gone - because all the supply goes to Amedei, and I think
    rightfully so. Amedei's Chuao always ran rings around Varhona's, and is
    surely among the best chocolates ever made. However, Valrhona's Chuao would
    have been a good complement for coffee and brown sugar. But why waste time?
    Amedei's Chuao will also work for that, is still available, and is a better
    chocolate.

    --
    Alex Rast
    [email hidden]
    (remove d., .7, not, and .NOSPAM to reply)

  8. "Michael Archon Sequoia Nielsen" <[email hidden]> wrote in
    message news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    The chocolate "buttons" are really good for
    cooking -- I've been quite pleased.

    Quoted message said:

    From Lindt?

    The only ones I know are Vekao, not chocolate
    (from Odense?)

    Yes, from Lindt. They come stacked in a tube, each about the size of two
    stacked 20kr pieces. I picked some up from Føtex, Christmas before last.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Cote d'Or is quite good, too -- the Noir de Noir
    is most excellent for cooking and eating. I don't
    remember the percentage on it at the moment,
    and I think we're out ...

    Quoted message said:

    I have tried some Cote D'or and didn't like it. Fake
    vanilla I believe. Noir de Noir is 56%.

    Neither the Noir (at 45%, it's acceptable for general [not to be confused
    with special] baking stuff) nor the Noir de Noir (which you're right, is
    56%) list vanilla or vanillin on the label.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Michael, are you finding these chocolates in DK?

    Quoted message said:

    I buy Valrhona in Salling and Kronen. I can get the
    1 kg bars, but I usually buy the estate versions and
    the 71% Amer Noir. When I cook I get something
    like Lindt.

    Novi Ghana can be found at the butcher or Italian
    Gourmet import shops (but it is cheaper to buy lots
    when in Italy at e.g. Milano Airport - about 2 euro
    per 100 gram). Thre's also an Ecuador and something
    else, but they are not as good as Ghana.

    And I was just there in January, damnit. Of course, I was more busy dealing
    with the after-effects of my best girlfriend's abusive spouse than worrying
    about chocolate. Meh, priorities.

    Quoted message said:

    Dolfin is something I found in Belgium to be much
    better than Neuhaus.

    Neuhaus can be bought at H.J Hansen wine store.

    Most excellent. Thank you.
    -j

  9. jacqui{JB} said:


    Yes, from Lindt. They come stacked in a tube, each about the size of two
    stacked 20kr pieces. I picked some up from Føtex, Christmas before last.

    Summerbird makes some organic chocolates which they sell in pre-chopped
    packages. They sell these for those pretty porcelain fondue things
    powered by a teacandle. They also have the chocolate bars in 80 gram
    packages. It is very good, too.

    Quoted message said:

    Neither the Noir (at 45%, it's acceptable for general [not to be confused
    with special] baking stuff) nor the Noir de Noir (which you're right, is
    56%) list vanilla or vanillin on the label.

    That's because there's no vanilla in those particular series. But the
    chocs that does have "vanilla flavour" have vanillin instead. When they
    cheat with that stuff, I have to wonder what kind of cocoa beans they
    use as well.

    Quoted message said:

    And I was just there in January, damnit. Of course, I was more busy dealing
    with the after-effects of my best girlfriend's abusive spouse than worrying
    about chocolate. Meh, priorities.

    You could have gotten her something for comfort.

    --
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Music, Recipes, Photos, and more:

    http://www.sequoiagrove.dk

    "You don´t frighten us, English pig-dogs! Go and boil your bottoms, sons
    of a silly person. I blow my nose at you, so-called Arthur-king, you and
    all your silly English kaniggets. Thppppt!"
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------

  10. Alex Rast said:

    However, for good texture, a chocolate has to have a certain minimum of
    cocoa butter - often considered to be around 35%, and some have up to 55%.

    Now the quiz is what is the name of the high-fat Valrhona? (I'll have to
    look it up the book, but you seem to know everything by heart)

    Quoted message said:

    Domori, Bonnat, and Slitti all make full-fledged 100% bars.

    I've never seen those brands.

    Quoted message said:

    Michel Cluizel has comparatively little smokiness compared to the really
    dark roasters like Pralus. But he does roast a little darker than the light
    roasters - Valrhona and Scharffen Berger.

    Valrhona also dries the beans in the sun, instead of over a fire, which
    many manufacturers do.

    Quoted message said:

    Yeah - so you like a light-roast, fruity chocolate.
    If you want to get
    really specific, you might try to head for the fruitiest beans - Sur Del
    Lago Clasificado, Porcelana, and Colombia Nacional. Valrhona Porcelana

    I've never heard of Porcelana?

    Quoted message said:

    Manjari?

    Excellent 🙂

    Quoted message said:

    Manjari is sourced from Madagascar beans which I agree are
    particularly well-suited for mousse. I actually have to say, though, that
    there are better Madagascar chocolates. Best is Amedei's - and it will be
    wondrous indeed in a mousse. Next best is (surprise!) Lindt's.

    I'vre seen amadei at the airport, I'll have to try it.

    Quoted message said:

    Caraibe.

    Right again 🙂

    Quoted message said:

    Again, good choice. Trinitarios tend to have a spicy
    characteristic which in a hot chocolate comes out very well. However, for a
    hot chocolate I'd dial up the intensity over the comparatively mild Caraibe
    and use something like Dagoba's Eclipse 87%. And with hot chocolate a dark
    roast is also desirable: dark roast complements dairy very well. In this
    regard Pralus is the clear winner, especially Pralus Indonesie.

    Haven't seen those brands around.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Neuhaus (Belgium) is boring to eat pure, but fine for cooking.

    The new Neuhaus origin chocolates are in a completely different stratum
    from their regular chocolates which are pretty ho-hum. Both Occumare 71%
    and West Africa 73% are great. Sao Tome is also very good. I was blown away
    - I was never expecting this level of quality from them.

    I've seen some new Neuhaus stuff at the wine store, I should give them a
    try.

    Quoted message said:

    Gran Couva : particularly superb with mint, berries. Disastrous with coffee
    and nuts.

    This was a really good pure chocolate experience. For when you really
    feel the urge for a real chocolate taste.

    Quoted message said:

    Ampamakia : a good complement to cinnamon and raisins. Don't mix with
    Palmira : Perhaps even better than Ampamakia with raisins and currants.

    My favourites! Smooth and fruity for an exotic experience.

    Quoted message said:

    Porcelana : Literally a match made in heaven for chestnuts. Very suitable,
    in fact, with all varieties of nuts. Cream however will really obliterate
    the flavour. Never use with citrus either.

    haven't seen this.

    Quoted message said:

    Chuao : Now gone - because all the supply goes to Amedei, and I think

    I wasn't that fond of this one.

    You are very knowledgeable in the field - you wouldn't happen to be that
    guy who has a chocolate review site that I emailed a year or so ago?

    I guess you wouldn't know that the danish brand Anton Berg is trying to
    get into the gourmet chocolate market with some single region
    chocolates: Ghana (60% with bean nips), Ecuador (72%) and New Guinea
    (72%)? For the price they are quite good.

    http://www.northerner.com/html/mat-at-anthonberg-kakor.html

    I am eating the Ghana right now, with a single estate plantation coffee
    (Yellow Catuai, Minas Gerias, Brazil). I generally prefer Ethiopian,
    Kenyan, Sumatra and Sulawesi coffees, but this is excellent.

    --
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Music, Recipes, Photos, and more:

    http://www.sequoiagrove.dk

    "You don´t frighten us, English pig-dogs! Go and boil your bottoms, sons
    of a silly person. I blow my nose at you, so-called Arthur-king, you and
    all your silly English kaniggets. Thppppt!"
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------

  11. "Michael Archon Sequoia Nielsen" <[email hidden]> wrote in
    message news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Summerbird makes some organic chocolates which
    they sell in pre-chopped packages.

    I don't care for Summerbird chocolate, at all (and this is the restrained
    version of my answer 🙂). I seem to be the odd man out in that regard,
    though.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Neither the Noir (at 45%, it's acceptable for general
    [not to be confused with special] baking stuff) nor the
    Noir de Noir (which you're right, is 56%) list vanilla
    or vanillin on the label.

    Quoted message said:

    That's because there's no vanilla in those particular series.
    But the chocs that does have "vanilla flavour" have vanillin
    instead. When they cheat with that stuff, I have to wonder
    what kind of cocoa beans they use as well.

    Agreed.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    And I was just there in January, damnit. Of course,
    I was more busy dealing with the after-effects of my
    best girlfriend's abusive spouse than worrying about
    chocolate. Meh, priorities.

    Quoted message said:

    You could have gotten her something for comfort.

    We did plenty of that during the visit; I meant on the way out of the
    country.

    And golly, that's a pretty part of the world, between Milan and Turin.
    -j

  12. Alex Rast said:

    at Thu, 25 May 2006 10:41:48 GMT in
    <[email hidden]>, [email hidden]
    (Michael Archon Sequoia Nielsen) wrote :

    Quoted message said:
    aem said:

    Alex Rast wrote:

    > 4 oz - 2 cups milk? Not a very strong dip. That's more like a mild
    > chocolate pudding recipe. If you want a strong flavour, therefore,
    > you need a powerful chocolate, especially since it has added sugar.
    > Really, you should consider a quality unsweetened chocolate.

    Unsweetened? Does dark chocolate come both sweetened and unsweetened?
    I gather you're saying unsweetened is stronger flavored....

    Yup - dark chocolate comes in both. Unsweetened is stronger flavoured - and
    not just by the percentage difference. Here's why. [snip extensive explanation]

    Thanks. Way more info than I can assimilate all at once, but I'll keep
    it for reference. And I have bookmarked the chocosphere site, which is
    also really good.

    What are your favorites to accompany red wine? A nice Bordeaux or
    pinot noir, say. -aem

  13. at Fri, 26 May 2006 10:27:09 GMT in
    <[email hidden]>, [email hidden]
    (Michael Archon Sequoia Nielsen) wrote :

    Quoted message said:
    Alex Rast said:

    However, for good texture, a chocolate has to have a certain minimum
    of cocoa butter - often considered to be around 35%, and some have up
    to 55%.

    Now the quiz is what is the name of the high-fat Valrhona? (I'll have to
    look it up the book, but you seem to know everything by heart)

    It's rather the reverse - i.e. which Valrhonas have *low* fat. Most
    Valrhona chocolate is couverture-grade and thus is high-fat. Caraque - a
    semisweet, is somewhat lower in fat that most of the others. On the high
    side, Guanaja and Araguani are both very high-fat, which is also why they
    have such a smooth finish.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Domori, Bonnat, and Slitti all make full-fledged 100% bars.

    I've never seen those brands.

    Depends on the distribution. I'm not really up to speed on distribution in
    Denmark but there are sources in Germany:

    http://www.berliner-kaffeeroesterei.de

    seems to have the best selection.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Michel Cluizel has comparatively little smokiness compared to the
    really dark roasters like Pralus. But he does roast a little darker
    than the light roasters - Valrhona and Scharffen Berger.

    Valrhona also dries the beans in the sun, instead of over a fire, which
    many manufacturers do.

    That's not really in the control of the manufacturer. Manufacturers source
    from various plantations and the drying process happens there, so it's more
    or less up to the plantation what to do. Generally local tradition tends to
    dictate what the plantation does. A few manufacturers - Domori in
    particular and Amedei in the case of Chuao - have more explicit control
    over what the plantation does but these are exceptions.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Yeah - so you like a light-roast, fruity chocolate.
    If you want to get
    really specific, you might try to head for the fruitiest beans - Sur
    Del Lago Clasificado, Porcelana, and Colombia Nacional. Valrhona
    Porcelana

    I've never heard of Porcelana?

    Really? You've got to be among the few chocophiles I've talked to who
    doesn't. Porcelana is one of those ridiculously fashionable, crazily-
    sought-after beans that caught the public hype a few years back. Domori is
    the company responsible for popularising it - and it's easy to see why.
    Domori's Porcelana is one of the greatest chocolates on the market - a
    paragon of delicacy and sophistication. When it was first released it was a
    revelation to people used to the brute strength of other beans. Porcelana
    is also, as far as anyone can tell, the one whose genetic origins are
    closest to pure wild Criollo cocoa - this doesn't mean much perhaps in and
    of itself and the question of what is "pure" is itself pretty vague. But
    Domori did a good job marketing that crucial fact so people latched on to
    it. I still give credit to the chocolate itself, because all that hype
    would have been so much hot air and died away quickly had the chocolate not
    lived up to expectations, but it did and the rest, as they say is history.
    Meanwhile, other chocolatiers, eager to get on the bandwagon, quickly
    followed suit with their own versions, which have generally been worse. I
    think, in any case, that you will really love Domori's version and you
    should try it ASAP.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Manjari?

    Excellent 🙂

    Quoted message said:

    Manjari is sourced from Madagascar beans which I agree are
    particularly well-suited for mousse. I actually have to say, though,
    that there are better Madagascar chocolates. Best is Amedei's - and it
    will be wondrous indeed in a mousse. Next best is (surprise!) Lindt's.

    I'vre seen amadei at the airport, I'll have to try it.

    Well, this is a bit difficult because the only format in which Amedei
    currently distributes their Madagascar is in annoying 5g tasting squares,
    which furthermore are part of an assortment containing various origins. Not
    that the other origins aren't worth trying - many of them are very good
    indeed and if you like fruity flavours you'll be delighted with their
    Trinidad - but if you want to have a *specific* chocolate it's frustrating.
    Pralus figured out the right way to package a tasting assortment - his
    "Pyramide des Tropiques" contains 10 bars, each a different varietal, each
    50g apiece. The tissue paper should be replaced with foil, but that's a
    detail. However since you're not fond of dark, smoky chocolates this is a
    moot point because Pralus is the epitome of that style - so for you I
    wouldn't recommend it.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    ...I'd dial up the intensity over the comparatively
    mild Caraibe and use something like Dagoba's Eclipse 87%. And with hot
    chocolate a dark roast is also desirable: dark roast complements dairy
    very well. In this regard Pralus is the clear winner, especially
    Pralus Indonesie.

    Haven't seen those brands around.

    Dagoba could be difficult. It's a US brand.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Neuhaus (Belgium) is boring to eat pure, but fine for cooking.

    The new Neuhaus origin chocolates are in a completely different
    stratum from their regular chocolates...

    I've seen some new Neuhaus stuff at the wine store, I should give them a
    try.

    Be careful, it's only the origin bars, in distinctive wrappers that look a
    lot like a sleeve for an airplane ticket, that are genuninely good.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Gran Couva : particularly superb with mint, berries. Disastrous with
    coffee and nuts.

    This was a really good pure chocolate experience. For when you really
    feel the urge for a real chocolate taste.

    Probably the best of Valrhona's origin bars but I'd consider it highly
    characterised rather than a pure chocolate experience. From my POV at least
    the closest bar to tasting "chocolatey" with no other components is
    Cluizel's Noir 72%. With its lack of distinctive components, some may think
    it a little uninteresting but I think it's superb - how can one beat the
    essence of chocolatiness?

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Ampamakia : a good complement to cinnamon and raisins. Don't mix with
    Palmira : Perhaps even better than Ampamakia with raisins and
    currants.

    My favourites! Smooth and fruity for an exotic experience.

    Palmira isn't really smooth, at least not IME, but it's *very* exotic.
    Fruity, yes, and in a way very different from what Valrhona usually does.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Porcelana : Literally a match made in heaven for chestnuts. Very


    suitable, in fact, with all varieties of nuts. Cream however will
    really obliterate the flavour. Never use with citrus either.

    haven't seen this.

    Big $. In England it's 50 pounds for a 324 g box. Overhyped presentation in
    a pentagonal box containing chocolate moulded into the form of a cacao
    flower (who let the marketroids loose? Quick, Valrhona, catch them before
    they escape and multiply). It's good, although as I say not really as good
    as the Domori version.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Chuao : Now gone - because all the supply goes to Amedei, and I think

    I wasn't that fond of this one.

    It would *definitely* have been your least favourite. Valrhona's Chuao
    wasn't very fruity - a real departure for them - it was very earthy and I
    think they overroasted it. In fact, Valrhona's version would have been very
    close to the kind of flavour which would be the definition of what you
    would dislike. Amedei's OTOH, you will probably like. I don't think you'll
    like it as much as me (you prefer a brighter, redder fruitiness in contrast
    to the purple-blue, darker fruitiness of Amedei Chuao) but I still think
    you'll be impressed.

    Quoted message said:

    You are very knowledgeable in the field - you wouldn't happen to be that
    guy who has a chocolate review site that I emailed a year or so ago?

    Is that SeventyPercent.com? No, I'm not Martin Christy but I write reviews
    for the site and know him very well. Seventypercent.com is one of the very
    best online chocolate stores, as well. Highly recommended.

    Quoted message said:

    I guess you wouldn't know that the danish brand Anton Berg is trying to
    get into the gourmet chocolate market with some single region
    chocolates: Ghana (60% with bean nips), Ecuador (72%) and New Guinea
    (72%)? For the price they are quite good.

    No. I will have to try them when I get the chance. Thanks for the info.

    Quoted message said:


    http://www.northerner.com/html/mat-at-anthonberg-kakor.html

    I am eating the Ghana right now, with a single estate plantation coffee
    (Yellow Catuai, Minas Gerias, Brazil). I generally prefer Ethiopian,
    Kenyan, Sumatra and Sulawesi coffees, but this is excellent.

    How interesting! In coffee you generally lean towards the reverse of what
    you like in chocolate - namely towards rich, full-bodied coffees. However,
    I think in both cases I do detect the crucial factor. That you like
    Ethiopian coffee is the giveaway, together with the Palmira. What you like
    more than anything else is a very complex flavour profile - one with many
    distinctive components that show up. This sheds additional light on your
    comparative lack of interest in Cluizel. His style aims for carefully
    harmonised, perfected chocolates with a good even profile, rather than ones
    with many characteristics each vying for attention. I think his philosophy
    is that you can overdo it with complexity - so much so that the result is
    confusing rather than pleasing: the palate can only process so many
    flavours at once. It's really too bad you're not in the USA, because then
    you could get Guittard's L'Harmonie, one of the most astonishingly complex
    chocolates ever. A chocolate you definitely should try is Domori's Chacao
    Absolute.

    --
    Alex Rast
    [email hidden]
    (remove d., .7, not, and .NOSPAM to reply)

  14. at Fri, 26 May 2006 16:23:41 GMT in
    <[email hidden]>,
    [email hidden] (aem) wrote :

    Quoted message said:


    Alex Rast said:

    at Thu, 25 May 2006 10:41:48 GMT in
    <[email hidden]>, [email hidden]
    (Michael Archon Sequoia Nielsen) wrote :

    Quoted message said:

    aem wrote:
    > Alex Rast wrote:


    ....

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:


    Yup - dark chocolate comes in both. Unsweetened is stronger flavoured
    - and not just by the percentage difference. Here's why. [snip
    extensive explanation]

    Thanks. Way more info than I can assimilate all at once, but I'll keep
    it for reference. And I have bookmarked the chocosphere site, which is
    also really good.

    What are your favorites to accompany red wine? A nice Bordeaux or
    pinot noir, say. -aem

    Not having chocolate. Seriously, chocolate and red wine are legendary for
    clashing in an extreme way. You ruin both the flavour of the chocolate and
    the wine. It's considered to be a textbook example of a "never do this". If
    you feel you must have something to accompany chocolate, a good coffee is
    probably the best choice. Still, if you want to taste the pure sensation of
    chocolate, by itself is perhaps best - unless you're tasting multiple
    different chocolates. In that case you should make a very soupy warm gruel
    out of coarse cornmeal (such as polenta or hominy grits) and take sips
    between chocolates. It sounds wierd and off-putting but it's classic and
    time-honoured. This is what the indigenous Mesoamericans did long before
    the advent of Columbus.

    --
    Alex Rast
    [email hidden]
    (remove d., .7, not, and .NOSPAM to reply)

  15. "Alex Rast" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    at Fri, 26 May 2006 16:23:41 GMT in

    Quoted message said:

    What are your favorites to accompany red wine? A nice Bordeaux or
    pinot noir, say. -aem

    Not having chocolate. Seriously, chocolate and red wine are legendary for
    clashing in an extreme way. You ruin both the flavour of the chocolate and
    the wine. It's considered to be a textbook example of a "never do this".
    If
    you feel you must have something to accompany chocolate, a good coffee is
    probably the best choice. Still, if you want to taste the pure sensation
    of
    chocolate, by itself is perhaps best - unless you're tasting multiple
    different chocolates. In that case you should make a very soupy warm gruel
    out of coarse cornmeal (such as polenta or hominy grits) and take sips
    between chocolates. It sounds wierd and off-putting but it's classic and
    time-honoured. This is what the indigenous Mesoamericans did long before
    the advent of Columbus.

    --
    Alex Rast

    Interesting.

    1. Are you saying that the Mesoamericans were tasting various chocolates and
    used the gruel to cleanse their palate between tastes of various chocolates?

    2. Are you sayin that the Mesoamericans preferred to use gruel to cleanse
    their palate between tastes of any one particular chocolate they were
    eating.

    3. Are you saying that the Mesoamericans preferrred to have gruel with
    chocolate, just as some might prefer it with wine/port today?

    4. Are you saying that the Mesoamericans preferrred to have gruel with
    chocolate, just as some might prefer it with wine/port today, but that it
    was later discovered that it cleansed the palate.

    My personal preference is chocolate alone, but sometimes (but not often) I
    do like a little port with it.
    Dee Dee

  16. aem said:

    Thanks. Way more info than I can assimilate all at once, but I'll keep
    it for reference. And I have bookmarked the chocosphere site, which is
    also really good.

    What are your favorites to accompany red wine? A nice Bordeaux or
    pinot noir, say. -aem

    I prefer coffee with it, but have found that a overseas (reference point
    in Europe) cab. sauv (say, Napa Valley). For Europe, maybe a big Rhone.
    But normally a Banyul is served for chocolate.

    --
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Music, Recipes, Photos, and more:

    http://www.sequoiagrove.dk

    "You don´t frighten us, English pig-dogs! Go and boil your bottoms, sons
    of a silly person. I blow my nose at you, so-called Arthur-king, you and
    all your silly English kaniggets. Thppppt!"
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------

  17. Alex Rast said:

    It's rather the reverse - i.e. which Valrhonas have *low* fat. Most
    Valrhona chocolate is couverture-grade and thus is high-fat. Caraque - a
    semisweet, is somewhat lower in fat that most of the others. On the high
    side, Guanaja and Araguani are both very high-fat, which is also why they
    have such a smooth finish.

    Yes, Caraque was the one the chef, who hosted the chocolate course,
    mentioned, but I was pretty sure he said it had higher fat content than
    the others and therefore more shiny as a cover for filled chocolates
    (instead of people adding paraffin). Maybe relative to the cocoa content?

    Caraque 37% fat to 56% cocoa = 0.66
    Le Noir Gastronomie 38.5% fat to 61% cocoa = 0.63
    Manjari 40.5% fat to 64% cocoa = 0.63
    Caraibe 40.5% fat to 66.5% cocoa = 0.61

    Quoted message said:

    That's not really in the control of the manufacturer. Manufacturers source
    from various plantations and the drying process happens there, so it's more
    or less up to the plantation what to do. Generally local tradition tends to
    dictate what the plantation does. A few manufacturers - Domori in
    particular and Amedei in the case of Chuao - have more explicit control
    over what the plantation does but these are exceptions.

    The chef told that Valrhona have control, because they grow 80% of their
    cocoa, cane sugar, and vanilla themselves.

    Quoted message said:

    Really? You've got to be among the few chocophiles I've talked to who
    doesn't. Porcelana is one of those ridiculously fashionable, crazily-
    sought-after beans that caught the public hype a few years back. Domori is
    the company responsible for popularising it - and it's easy to see why.

    I think the normal Valrhona and Mitchel Cruitzel chocs are the top the
    price that can be sold in Denmark. In this country nobody is poor, but
    nobody is rich either. It is a rich country with a mediocre population
    (one of the mantras of my political party that fights for individual
    freedom) 🙂

    Quoted message said:

    Be careful, it's only the origin bars, in distinctive wrappers that look a
    lot like a sleeve for an airplane ticket, that are genuninely good.

    Yeah, that is the type of packaging I saw, but I didn't dare try, when
    the normal neuhaus was so boring and the price was higher than Valrhona,
    and the fact that they use fake vanilla and hydrogenated oils in the
    filled chocolates also ticks me off...

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Ampamakia : a good complement to cinnamon and raisins. Don't mix with
    Palmira : Perhaps even better than Ampamakia with raisins and
    currants.


    My favourites! Smooth and fruity for an exotic experience.

    Palmira isn't really smooth, at least not IME, but it's *very* exotic.
    Fruity, yes, and in a way very different from what Valrhona usually does.

    OK, I've only tasted Palmira once, but I've eaten a lot of Ampamakia. I
    groups them because the store stopped having Ampamakia lately and
    started Palmira as replacement for it.

    Quoted message said:

    Big $. In England it's 50 pounds for a 324 g box. Overhyped presentation in
    a pentagonal box containing chocolate moulded into the form of a cacao
    flower (who let the marketroids loose? Quick, Valrhona, catch them before
    they escape and multiply). It's good, although as I say not really as good
    as the Domori version.

    I think they can't sell it here. Maybe they can in Copenhagen or en
    gourmet stores north of copenhagen, where the people with money lives.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    I guess you wouldn't know that the danish brand Anton Berg is trying to
    get into the gourmet chocolate market with some single region
    chocolates: Ghana (60% with bean nips), Ecuador (72%) and New Guinea
    (72%)? For the price they are quite good.

    No. I will have to try them when I get the chance. Thanks for the info.

    It is not as good as the fancy expensive foreign stuff, but given that
    the darkest Danish chocolate you could get 5 years ago was barely 50%
    and fake vanilla and sometimes added vegetable oils, this is a huge step up.

    Quoted message said:

    How interesting! In coffee you generally lean towards the reverse of what
    you like in chocolate - namely towards rich, full-bodied coffees.

    Exactly (also my wines), but the African coffees also have the fruity
    notes, like black currant. However, Sulawesi/Sumatra are more earthy,
    but I do not like the same coffee everyday, I need some variation. I
    mostly drink the African ones. Peet's Coffee in Davis was very fond of
    me and often gave me free samples, because they enjoyed discussing with
    me. I got a small bag of their most expensive coffee Aged Sulawesi
    Peaberry. Wow, that was like having an earthy Sulawesi coffee AND a
    fruity African coffee at the same time - not meddled together - but
    first one taste and then the other.

    Quoted message said:

    However,
    I think in both cases I do detect the crucial factor. That you like
    Ethiopian coffee is the giveaway, together with the Palmira. What you like
    more than anything else is a very complex flavour profile - one with many
    distinctive components that show up.

    Hah, like with wine. the guy in my wine store, who knows me best,
    describes my taste: "you'll like this Pauillac Cru Bourgeois, it's like
    getting a donkey kick in the face". Other favorites are traditional
    Rioja Grand Reserva (the best: Lopez de Heredia Tondonia - WOW!
    http://www.wineanorak.com/lopez_heredia.htm ), Aged Napa valley cab.
    sauv. (e.g. Sequoia Grove Reserve Cabernet - my name brother 🙂 ) and
    Syrah/Shiraz. For White Wine it is buttery oaky chardonnay. For port it
    is the L.B.V. and Vintage ports. Annoying 'cos the type of wine I like
    is generally 15-30$ in Denmark. Other people just get a 3-6% wine, but I
    don't like those. Sometimes I'm lucky to get a good Cotes du Rhone
    Villages at a good price.

    I checked my email archive and found the review guy I thought were you
    is called Mark Canizaro. He actually said that Valrhona does not travel
    well, because in the US it is not as good as in Europe.

    http://www.xocoatl.org/

    --
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Music, Recipes, Photos, and more:

    http://www.sequoiagrove.dk

    "You don´t frighten us, English pig-dogs! Go and boil your bottoms, sons
    of a silly person. I blow my nose at you, so-called Arthur-king, you and
    all your silly English kaniggets. Thppppt!"
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------

  18. Alex Rast said:
    Quoted message said:

    I guess you wouldn't know that the danish brand Anton Berg is trying to
    get into the gourmet chocolate market with some single region
    chocolates: Ghana (60% with bean nips), Ecuador (72%) and New Guinea
    (72%)? For the price they are quite good.

    No. I will have to try them when I get the chance. Thanks for the info.

    I am having the New Guinea today - BAD! Do not get that one...
    I am also having the Ecuador. You might like it, because it has that
    smoky flavor.

    --
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Music, Recipes, Photos, and more:

    http://www.sequoiagrove.dk

    "You don´t frighten us, English pig-dogs! Go and boil your bottoms, sons
    of a silly person. I blow my nose at you, so-called Arthur-king, you and
    all your silly English kaniggets. Thppppt!"
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------

  19. at Mon, 29 May 2006 09:28:14 GMT in
    <[email hidden]>, [email hidden]
    (Michael Archon Sequoia Nielsen) wrote :

    Quoted message said:
    Alex Rast said:

    It's rather the reverse - i.e. which Valrhonas have *low* fat....

    Yes, Caraque was the one the chef, who hosted the chocolate course,
    mentioned, but I was pretty sure he said it had higher fat content than
    the others and therefore more shiny as a cover for filled chocolates
    (instead of people adding paraffin).

    This is almost never done among top-notch chocolatiers - ranking I think
    almost in the category of Urban Legend. Perhaps some low-end chocolatiers
    once did this, but I've never seen one, ever, with paraffin listed among
    the ingredients. Lower-end chocolatiers are more likely, if anything, to
    use compound coating rather than mixing any paraffin in.

    Quoted message said:

    Maybe relative to the cocoa
    content?

    What this would be is the percentage of cocoa solids that was cocoa butter.
    This would then roughly be an indication of how much extra cocoa butter
    they needed to add in addition to that naturally present in the beans.
    There is a very marginal benefit possible in couverture applications, and
    it would be this: added cocoa butter can be more carefully standardised for
    melting properties and viscosity. The exact composition and behaviour of
    cocoa butter varies from bean to bean. But bulk cocoa butter has usually
    been carefully homogenised to a specification and has very predictable
    melting characteristics. So the more added cocoa butter you have, the more
    you can expect your chocolate to behave consistently.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    That's not really in the control of the manufacturer...

    The chef told that Valrhona have control, because they grow 80% of their
    cocoa, cane sugar, and vanilla themselves.

    Only up to a point. It's well-known that Valrhona does indeed negotiate
    exclusive arrangements with plantations (not quite the same as "growing it
    themselves"😉 and this means they have some ability to manage quality, but
    nonetheless plantation processing practices aren't usually standardised.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Really? You've got to be among the few chocophiles I've talked to who
    doesn't. Porcelana is one...

    I think the normal Valrhona and Mitchel Cruitzel chocs are the top the
    price that can be sold in Denmark. In this country nobody is poor, but
    nobody is rich either.

    Actually, that pattern is close to what you find in most countries - the
    more exotic the brand, the less widespread the distribution, concentrating
    in major cities. For instance, in the USA, you won't find Valrhona origin
    bars in, say, a small town in Iowa. But in New York, yes. Even in the mid-
    sized cities it can be difficult - so that in a city like Montgomery, AL
    I'd expect only a limited selection of really first-rate brands.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Be careful, it's only the origin bars, in distinctive wrappers that
    look a lot like a sleeve for an airplane ticket, that are genuninely
    good.

    Yeah, that is the type of packaging I saw, but I didn't dare try, when
    the normal neuhaus was so boring and the price was higher than Valrhona,
    and the fact that they use fake vanilla and hydrogenated oils in the
    filled chocolates also ticks me off...

    Yeah, that's IMHO not a mark of distinction. Use of synthetic ingredients
    is, almost by consensus, an indication of a lower-end target market. IME,
    however, the market segment the chocolatier aims for is only slightly
    correlated with the quality of the chocolate bars it produces.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > Ampamakia : a good complement to cinnamon and raisins. Don't mix
    > with Palmira : Perhaps even better than Ampamakia with raisins and
    > currants.
    My favourites! Smooth and fruity for an exotic experience.

    Palmira isn't really smooth, at least not IME, but it's *very* exotic.
    Fruity, yes, and in a way very different from what Valrhona usually
    does.

    OK, I've only tasted Palmira once, but I've eaten a lot of Ampamakia. I
    groups them because the store stopped having Ampamakia lately and
    started Palmira as replacement for it.

    Then you should complain vociferously to your store. No store should
    replace a single-origin varietal with a different single-origin and claim
    it as a substitute. This would be as ridiculous as, e.g. replacing a
    Burgundy Pinot Noir with a Bordeaux Cabernet.

    Now, Valrhona did recently introduce Palmira while dropping Chuao - because
    Amedei has the Chuao supply now - but they didn't suggest it was a
    replacement. Meanwhile they continue to produce Ampamakia and your store
    needs to know that they're not serving customers well if they're
    arbitrarily replacing one chocolate with a totally different one.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    I guess you wouldn't know that the danish brand Anton Berg is trying
    to get into the gourmet chocolate market with some single region
    chocolates: Ghana (60% with bean nips), Ecuador (72%) and New Guinea
    (72%)? For the price they are quite good.

    No. I will have to try them when I get the chance. Thanks for the
    info.

    It is not as good as the fancy expensive foreign stuff, but given that
    the darkest Danish chocolate you could get 5 years ago was barely 50%
    and fake vanilla and sometimes added vegetable oils, this is a huge step
    up.

    Chocolate has exploded onto the market-visibility stage - it was, I suppose
    the next "big thing" once coffee had gotten itself established. You can
    criticise Starbucks for much but one benefit they did bring is increase
    public awareness of the possiblity that a common comestible can be had in
    better than commodity quality. I mean this in the most general way - it
    wasn't just coffee that they helped to spur forward, but in fact *any* food
    where quality differences are real, because, now that people accepted that
    in coffee it was possible to get better than the standard fare, they
    started to ask if that was also true with other things.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    How interesting! In coffee you generally lean towards the reverse of
    what you like in chocolate - namely towards rich, full-bodied coffees.

    Exactly (also my wines), but the African coffees also have the fruity
    notes, like black currant. However, Sulawesi/Sumatra are more earthy,
    but I do not like the same coffee everyday, I need some variation. I
    mostly drink the African ones. Peet's Coffee in Davis was very fond of
    me and often gave me free samples, because they enjoyed discussing with
    me. I got a small bag of their most expensive coffee Aged Sulawesi
    Peaberry. Wow, that was like having an earthy Sulawesi coffee AND a
    fruity African coffee at the same time - not meddled together - but
    first one taste and then the other.

    The aged Sulawesis I've tried have been my favourite coffees of all - it
    must be said that I prefer straight espresso, generally a pure double-shot.
    Peet's as a brand isn't as good IMHO as some of the brands in Seattle - but
    ironically the very best of them, Caffe D'Arte, doesn't do varietals. Aged
    Sulawesi I would describe as "syrupy" - just what I hope for in a coffee.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    ... What you
    like more than anything else is a very complex flavour profile...

    Hah, like with wine.

    Well there I'm not the expert. Fortunate thing too! Wine is one of the
    quickest ways to break the budget...

    Quoted message said:

    I checked my email archive and found the review guy I thought were you
    is called Mark Canizaro. He actually said that Valrhona does not travel
    well, because in the US it is not as good as in Europe.

    http://www.xocoatl.org/

    Yes, I've seen his site and discussed chocolates with him a bit too. It's
    easy to compare notes since we both live in Seattle. The ratings he has are
    a bit dated now, but it's one of several useful sites. There are several
    sites with ratings, with varying degrees of comprehensiveness, personal
    bias, and detail.

    What I think he found in the US on Valrhona is a little different - his
    problem is that the chocolate wasn't fresh. For some years, Valrhona was
    one of a tiny number of high-end European manufacturers you could buy in
    Seattle. However, the problem, back then, is that market visibility was
    low, and so shelf lives were high. Bars sat gathering dust.

    Today, the perspective has changed radically. The wave of chocolate
    interest hit Seattle full force, and there are multiple stores carrying
    large selections of chocolate. (Sadly, one of them, Larry's, is going to
    disappear soon). The chocolate you do get is now fresher and on par with
    what you would find in France.

    There are still a few stockists who remain clueless about how to store
    chocolate - one Seattle shop has all their high-quality bars on the other
    side of the oven they use to keep deli chicken warm, and another one has it
    next to the cheeses - and this causes its own problems, but if you're
    reasonably aware of what sensitive storage is like you can steer clear of
    these problems.

    --
    Alex Rast
    [email hidden]
    (remove d., .7, not, and .NOSPAM to reply)

  20. at Sat, 27 May 2006 12:00:44 GMT in <[email hidden]>,
    [email hidden] (Dee Randall) wrote :

    Quoted message said:


    "Alex Rast" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    at Fri, 26 May 2006 16:23:41 GMT in

    Quoted message said:

    What are your favorites to accompany red wine? A nice Bordeaux or
    pinot noir, say. -aem

    ... In that case you should make a very soupy warm
    gruel out of coarse cornmeal (such as polenta or hominy grits) and
    take sips between chocolates. It sounds wierd and off-putting but it's
    classic and time-honoured. This is what the indigenous Mesoamericans
    did long before the advent of Columbus.

    --
    Alex Rast

    Interesting.

    1. Are you saying that the Mesoamericans were tasting various chocolates
    and used the gruel to cleanse their palate between tastes of various
    chocolates?

    2. Are you sayin that the Mesoamericans preferred to use gruel to
    cleanse their palate between tastes of any one particular chocolate they
    were eating.

    3. Are you saying that the Mesoamericans preferrred to have gruel with
    chocolate, just as some might prefer it with wine/port today?

    4. Are you saying that the Mesoamericans preferrred to have gruel with
    chocolate, just as some might prefer it with wine/port today, but that
    it was later discovered that it cleansed the palate.

    I don't think there's been much research into why this was done. The
    arriving Spaniards observed the practice and weren't necessarily interested
    in the detailed theory, and today it's difficult to reassemble from antique
    texts and modern indigenous practice exactly what the theory might have
    been. However, it does seem clear that the Mesoamericans of the period did
    like to try different chocolates in a sitting. I don't think we can assume,
    necessarily, that they would have had the same motivations for doing so
    that we might today, but what I do notice is an astounding ability in any
    culinary tradition you care to name for identifying things that work and
    things that don't. My point in bringing it up is to note that it's not
    something that turns out disgusting.

    --
    Alex Rast
    [email hidden]
    (remove d., .7, not, and .NOSPAM to reply)

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