Track Ettiquette

Quoted message said:

No wheels on the track

__________

That's a no go w/me. Wheel Chair athletes & their vehicles have a
right to the facility imo. ESPN had a feature on this very subject and
I believe in Oregon compete with able legged runners on the highschool
level, same event.

Do you really have this much traffic on the track at any given time?
If so, perhaps the track can manage the competing interest via time
slots wherein certain caliber of runners only, etc...(at certain
times). You can weed out a whole class of people for 30 minutes for
example by saying from 8pm-9pm, Spikes only on the track. Methinks
that will tend to resolve the biggest problem of competing
interest.....(joggers w/speed demons). Speed people will avoid open
class hours, open class runners won't be in spikes....

Quoted message said:

That's a no go w/me. Wheel Chair athletes & their vehicles have a
right to the facility imo.

Good point, though I think Bob was thinking of the bikes, roller blades and
baby strollers who do not have a right to the facility (imo, of course)

I think wheel chair athletes are rare enough that they could be dealt with on
a case by case basis.

Quoted message said:

ESPN had a feature on this very subject and
I believe in Oregon compete with able legged runners on the highschool
level, same event.

Which was actually a bad idea, because the wheelchair athlete actually paced
one of the runners.

Quoted message said:

Do you really have this much traffic on the track at any given time?

It's not unusual, especially if the track is in a park that attracts a lot of
cyclists and roller bladers. People who really shouldn't be on a track at all
tend to come and use it as a sort of playground. It can become a bit of a zoo.

Quoted message said:

If so, perhaps the track can manage the competing interest via time
slots wherein certain caliber of runners only, etc...(at certain
times). You can weed out a whole class of people for 30 minutes for
example by saying from 8pm-9pm, Spikes only on the track. Methinks
that will tend to resolve the biggest problem of competing
interest.....(joggers w/speed demons). Speed people will avoid open
class hours, open class runners won't be in spikes....

Spikes tend to tear up the track. Most tracks do not allow spikes during
practice times.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

Which was actually a bad idea, because the wheelchair athlete actually
paced one of the runners.
_

something that can happen w/the able bodied runners, no?

everyone, you can see a video clip report on what donnie and are i are
talking about below

http://wjz.com/sports/local_story_109142648.html

I've some tracks with posted rules, e.g.

Everyone runs in the same direction.
Only fast people can use the innermost lane.
No pets in the innermost lane.
No vehicles of anykind including buggies.

I'd wish they'd work out trail running rules.
Bikes and ATVs are issues. To a lesser degree dogs and horses.
Some districts around here have tried exclusive use or special days.

Robert Grumbine said:

With the arrival of spring, the numbers out on the track my
club has been using is getting high. Worse, there's no concept
that there is such a thing as track ettiquette, much less
actually doing anything for safety. So here's a start towards a
list we might post. Contributions? Edits? (some are too long
for a poster/signboard).

Group I
* Slower traffic to the right
* Walk/run counterclockwise
-- If you go clockwise, only in the outermost lane(s), and get out
of the way of those going counterclockwise when you meet up.

At least one track I used had different directions on different days.
Also different days allowed different lanes. All this to spread out the
wear and tear. To fit a broader set of tracks rephrase this as
Group 1
* Slower traffic to the outside lanes
* always go with the flow (run in the same direction as everyone else)

ed

"rick++" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I've some tracks with posted rules, e.g.

Everyone runs in the same direction.

Some tracks state direction per day of the week and means everyone goes
in that direction. I don't care if people go in the opposite
direction(on unposted tracks) as long as they stay in lane 8 and way out
of the way.

Quoted message said:

Only fast people can use the innermost lane.

But fast is relative. 🙂 In general one should watch what is happening
on the track at all times. By rights the fastest person is allowed lane
one. As people come and go or alter what they are doing this can change.
You need to be vigilant so when you start your speed effort you will
know who you may have to yield to or who will be in front of you. If
people are aware and I know not always the case, there can be many
people/groups doing different workouts very harmoniously. One of out
local tracks gets a lot of use on any arbitrary evening and it goes very
well. And if your caught off guard and someone yells track you move over
one lane right and then return when they have passed. It's similar to
passing on the left with your car in most states except Mass where
passing is allowed in any lane at any time or so it seems. 😉

Having said that, posted rules do serve to educate. There are always a
few that feel first come first served and the posted rules don't apply
to them. They can usually made to feel very uncomfortable. 😉 If there
are no posted rules it could be difficult to convince some people that
first come do not get a choice.

Quoted message said:

No pets in the innermost lane.

I don't think pets of any kind, less a seeing eye dog, should be allowed
on the track or infield and I don't care how well trained they are.

Quoted message said:

No vehicles of anykind including buggies.

They are very damaging and should not be allowed.

Quoted message said:

I'd wish they'd work out trail running rules.

There are rules but getting people to abide is another issue. Most trail
races will either say on the entry form or at the pre-race briefing
what those rules are.

Quoted message said:

Bikes and ATVs are issues.

I try to avoid trails that allow or attract mountain bikes or motors.
The Vermont 50 does have a simultaneous bike and run 50 and it goes very
well. They let the bikes go first which gets 85% of the bikes in front
of the runners. Unfortunately you do get some slow rookies that
interleave with runners. In this case bikers must yell real loud,
"passing on your left/right" and you had best get the hell over even if
it means you stop but it doesn't mean you jump off a cliff. I usually
means the bike will take the easy easiest path and you get what's left.
And they get to yield at the next up as they push their bike.

Quoted message said:

To a lesser degree dogs and horses.
Some districts around here have tried exclusive use or special days.

Doug Freese said:

Quoted message said:

I don't think pets of any kind, less a seeing eye dog, should be allowed
on the track or infield and I don't care how well trained they are.

Blind runners usually have people to act as guides. This is a good thing,
because the guides know how to behave on a track or on a crowded path, whereas
dogs may not understand etiquette so well.

One thing I've had happen that really bugs me is walkers showing up on the
track *after* I've started my workout, and walking in lanes 1 and 2. This was a
workout where I didn't want to stop (no slow jogs) so I just overtook by
going between the two of them (between lanes 1 and 2). They didn't move, so
I kept passing them in similar manner.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

Ed Prochak said:

Robert Grumbine said:

With the arrival of spring, the numbers out on the track my
club has been using is getting high. Worse, there's no concept
that there is such a thing as track ettiquette, much less
actually doing anything for safety. So here's a start towards a
list we might post. Contributions? Edits? (some are too long
for a poster/signboard).

Group I
* Slower traffic to the right
* Walk/run counterclockwise
-- If you go clockwise, only in the outermost lane(s), and get out
of the way of those going counterclockwise when you meet up.

At least one track I used had different directions on different days.
Also different days allowed different lanes. All this to spread out the
wear and tear. To fit a broader set of tracks rephrase this as
Group 1
* Slower traffic to the outside lanes
* always go with the flow (run in the same direction as everyone else)

what if there's no-one there yet ? I think the different directions thing is
unusual anyway. Races always go CCW, so most people train that way too.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

Donovan said:

I think the different directions thing is unusual anyway.
Races always go CCW, so most people train that way too.

One context where IME it's the rule not the exception is small indoor
tracks at YMCAs and gyms. The handful I recall all called for
alternating directions by the day of the week. The intent is to even
out the stress meted out to your legs by all the sharp turns.

For those of us whose legs are significantly stressed by the
less-frequent, more gradual turns of a standard outdoor track, the
alternating directions might not be a bad idea. This year I'm finding
that sticking to an outer lane when I hit the track is working well,
and I haven't felt the need to run clockwise. It helps that I'm not
moving very fast and my track days have been fairly infrequent (less
than once a week) and low volume.

Oh, and at my local track - and those of other posters, it sounds like
- most of the people who show up are assuredly not "training" for any
sort of racing.

Donovan Rebbechi said:

Ed Prochak said:

[]

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

At least one track I used had different directions on different days.
Also different days allowed different lanes. All this to spread out the
wear and tear. To fit a broader set of tracks rephrase this as
Group 1
* Slower traffic to the outside lanes
* always go with the flow (run in the same direction as everyone else)

I should have added:
* obey posted rules

Quoted message said:

what if there's no-one there yet ? I think the different directions thing is
unusual anyway. Races always go CCW, so most people train that way too.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

Then either there is a posted rule giving the direction for that day
or, since you are the only one there, by definition you are running
with the flow.

I've been alone on a track where I ran part of the session in one
direction and part in the reverse direction.

Enjoy the run, either way.
ed

Quoted message said:

Donovan said:

I think the different directions thing is unusual anyway.
Races always go CCW, so most people train that way too.

One context where IME it's the rule not the exception is small indoor
tracks at YMCAs and gyms. The handful I recall all called for
alternating directions by the day of the week. The intent is to even
out the stress meted out to your legs by all the sharp turns.

That reminds me of the track at the YMCA in Youngstown. I was not a
runner then but tried it a few times. It was very small and had VERY
SHARP turns. The turns were steeply banked, so you felt a little like a
NASCAR driver. If you were fast enough you could be nearly horizontal
on the turn.

Quoted message said:

For those of us whose legs are significantly stressed by the
less-frequent, more gradual turns of a standard outdoor track, the
alternating directions might not be a bad idea. This year I'm finding
that sticking to an outer lane when I hit the track is working well,
and I haven't felt the need to run clockwise. It helps that I'm not
moving very fast and my track days have been fairly infrequent (less
than once a week) and low volume.

Oh, and at my local track - and those of other posters, it sounds like
- most of the people who show up are assuredly not "training" for any
sort of racing.

Sometimes even posted rules don't help. The last race I did started at
the Rec. Center. Since it was cool out, several runners were warming up
by running a few laps on the track. Even though there are signs posted
saying "slower runners and walkers keep right", there was a pair of
guys walking together that would not move, even after I reminded them
of the rule. Some folks are courteous and some are not.

Enjoy the run.
Ed

Ed Prochak said:

Then either there is a posted rule giving the direction for that day
or, since you are the only one there, by definition you are running
with the flow.

Except that convention generally dictates CCW unless stated otherwise.

Though in my experience, people running the wrong way hasn't really been a
problem anyway- it's mostly the walkers that are a nuisance.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

General comment is that some seemed to be commenting in the vein of
runners versus joggers versus walkers. imo there's no reason, if
all play by reasonable rules, that they can't all be on the track at the
same time. Given my interest in health, I want those walkers on the
track (rather than sitting on the couch). No reason they can't be, and
get a good workout for themselves, at the same time that I'm doing a
'turn green and ponder vomiting' interval workout.

Splicing some other things together:

Donovan Rebebechi in
Message-ID: <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Good point, though I think Bob was thinking of the bikes, roller blades and
baby strollers who do not have a right to the facility (imo, of course)

Indeed. 'No dogs' and 'No pets' signs also don't apply to blind people with
guide animals. I thought it was obvious that a similar exception applied
to wheelchairs.

Doug Freese in Message-ID: <[email hidden]>
"rick++" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I've some tracks with posted rules, e.g.

Everyone runs in the same direction.

Some tracks state direction per day of the week and means everyone goes
in that direction. I don't care if people go in the opposite
direction(on unposted tracks) as long as they stay in lane 8 and way out
of the way.

Usually indoor tracks because of the tight turns. But sure, I don't really
care which direction is done. For safety's sake, though, we do need to mostly
be going the same direction, and those who go opposite need to stay out of
the way. A bump from a 9:00 pacer passing a 9:30 is a pretty bad collision
head on.

Quoted message said:

Having said that, posted rules do serve to educate. There are always a
few that feel first come first served and the posted rules don't apply
to them. They can usually made to feel very uncomfortable. 😉 If there
are no posted rules it could be difficult to convince some people that
first come do not get a choice.

If they're posted, imo, there at least becomes a chance that people could
follow them. There will always be people who want to be racing full speed
in lane 1 in the opposite direction to the rest of traffic, etc. But without
it being posted, how is he to know that he's doing the wrong thing? Though
I certainly know exceptions, most people, most of the time, do the right
thing (if they know what it is).

There are also those who feel that they own the lane. If they're doing
their walk recovery from a fast interval, they stay in lane 1 because that's
_their_ lane. Wrong. (I surprise many a person at the track by going to
lane 6 for my walk recovery. But ... that's the point. Walk in the outer
lanes, run in the inner. It isn't who you are, it's what you're doing.)

--
Robert Grumbine http://www.radix.net/~bobg/ Science faqs and amateur activities notes and links.
Sagredo (Galileo Galilei) "You present these recondite matters with too much
evidence and ease; this great facility makes them less appreciated than they
would be had they been presented in a more abstruse manner." Two New Sciences

Robert Grumbine said:

General comment is that some seemed to be commenting in the vein of
runners versus joggers versus walkers. imo there's no reason, if
all play by reasonable rules, that they can't all be on the track at the
same time. Given my interest in health, I want those walkers on the
track (rather than sitting on the couch). No reason they can't be, and
get a good workout for themselves, at the same time that I'm doing a
'turn green and ponder vomiting' interval workout.

I agree with these sentiments but my pet peeve is the walkers
who insist on walking side by side and engaging in a gab fest.
The indoor track I use is only three lanes wide and has a posted
single file rule which is routinely ignored.

--
Ken Fortenberry

Ken Fortenberry said:

I agree with these sentiments but my pet peeve is the walkers
who insist on walking side by side and engaging in a gab fest.
The indoor track I use is only three lanes wide and has a posted
single file rule which is routinely ignored.

AFAIK, the clipping penalty is not enforced on the track. So go for it.
;-)

--
Phil M.

rick++ said:

I'd wish they'd work out trail running rules.

http://www.sctrails.net/trails/MISC/Etiquette.html
is one example. Generally fast yields to slow. Horses generally have
priority. And yield to dog teams in winter since mushers may not be able
to see you around a curve.

Quoted message said:

Bikes and ATVs are issues. To a lesser degree dogs and horses.
Some districts around here have tried exclusive use or special days.

Where I am, all user groups, including runners, have some jerks that
don't practice good trail etiquette. All user groups, including
motorized vehicles (ATVs, snow machines) have some users that are polite
and good ambassadors for their sports. I've had ATV'ers going slowly on
quiet machines apologize for their noise and interrupting my day. Some
turn their engines off to let hikers by. OTOH, we've had runners cut
switchbacks and use closed trails, to the point where they ripped out
the revegetation we had planted when trail was closed. However, things
with greater weight/area ratio (horses, ATVs) have a much greater
ability to damage trails - and they do. (Not sure if they have a larger
pct of jerks or not.)

Responsible users in all user groups are trying to educate the jerks
within their own groups so they don't have trails closed to their user
groups. However, the concept of sustainability is hard to get across to
some.

Because of the bad rap mtn bikers have gotten in the past, they are
probably the most pro-active group in terms of trail advocacy and trail
construction / maintenance from local up to international level. IMBA
has sponsored Trail Care crews for years. We owe our one single track
(non-30% slope) to the mtb crew here.

Now, if we could just educate the manufacturers to not have tv
commercials depicting ATV's as a tool to tear up trails and tundra...

Dot

--
"Success is different things to different people"
-Bernd Heinrich in Racing the Antelope

Can someone get Bob a tampon?

He's dropping an egg.

Has it been a month already?

Phil M. said:

Ken Fortenberry said:

I agree with these sentiments but my pet peeve is the walkers
who insist on walking side by side and engaging in a gab fest.
The indoor track I use is only three lanes wide and has a posted
single file rule which is routinely ignored.

AFAIK, the clipping penalty is not enforced on the track. So go for it.
;-)

An excellent suggestion but the people who usually do this
are among the most powerful, connected and politically savvy
persons on the University of Illinois campus, fat secretaries.

--
Ken Fortenberry

On Tue, 30 May 2006 18:22:43 -0000, [email hidden] (Robert Grumbine)

Quoted message said:

With the arrival of spring, the numbers out on the track my
club has been using is getting high. Worse, there's no concept
that there is such a thing as track ettiquette, much less
actually doing anything for safety.

Good one, sir. The local high school track is a place where I can
take my daughter where we can each move at our own pace. As a result
I spend a lot of time there. *So far* the facility is open to the
public. I have called the police to eject: atv'ers, mototcyclist,
kids on mountain bikes, etc.

We have posted rules. These include: use the outer lanes (save lane 1
and 2 which get heaviest use at meets); no bikes, skates, skateboards;
no dogs (commonly ignored). Most of the people with dogs are heading
for the infield to do some long-distance "fetch". They are not a
problem for me personally, but it *is* against the rules.

I'd like to add to the list of rules something like, "If you have to
spit, do it away from the track, sidewalks, and bleachers."

Another pet peeve of mine is people who wander or change lanes without
warning. Look back before you change lanes or cross the track! (The
running equivalent of "Check your blind spot".)

Another pet peeve: You put the hurdles out? Then you put the hurdles
back! During track season hurdles are usually laid out in the middle
lanes of the "finish line" straight. But somebody (some kind of
plyometric training?) keeps moving a bunch of hurdles into lanes 8 and
9 right at the finish line (there is a canopy that casts shade there
in early afternoon) -- and then they *leave* the hurdles there!
Barbarians!

Non-"track" people don't know what yelling "Track!" means. I have
found it more useful to say, "Passing on your left!" or some such.

One of the "regulars" at our track does half his running clockwise.
Afraid one leg will grow longer than the other? Nobody else has a
problem going CCW.

One last anecdote. Last summer the high school hosted four weeks of
evening sessions of training for cheerleaders. To warm up, before
heading off somewhere to practice with their pompoms or whatever, they
were supposed to come up and run two laps around the track. About 60
teen girls would stream onto the track, and run/jog/walk a lap or two.
Then they would disappear again, taking their dizzy chatter with them,
but a *cloud* of competing scent (I guess ya need ta smell pretty
while training?) would linger toxically for minutes after they were
gone. Maybe we need a rule that says, "Go easy on the cologne!"
--
Daniel
[email hidden]
--

It's not *really* free. They have a setup charge.

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