Wheel slips out of chrome horizontal dropouts

Collin O'Neill said:

Hi there,

<snip>

Quoted message said:

Is there anything I can do to improve the grip short of stripping the
chrome off the dropouts entirely? Is there some special, heavy-duty
skewer I can look into? What about abrading the chrome at the dropout?

Thanks
Collin

Standard Shimano skewers are considered to have pretty good grip - I
use 'em on an old bike with horizontal chromed drop outs with no
problems.

Is it possible that the locknuts on the axle (onto which the inside
faces of the dropouts are pushed by the tightenting skewer) are
inside-out, or the knurled pattern has been worn away?

bookieb

Collin O'Neill said:

Hi there,

Quoted message said:

I have an '80s racing frame with some nice chromed horizontal dropouts.
My wheels use American Classic hubs and I can't get the [censored] to
stay in the dropouts without forcing the quick-release skewer shut with
a clamp. The American Classic skewers have steel knurls, and I've tried
Shimano steel skewers as well. I've also tried some allen-key skewers
and they don't hold at all,most likely because the knurls are aluminum
and not steel.

I have some old American Classic (actually Weyless) hubs and they are
a BEAR to close fully. It seems that Bill Shook may not design hubs
with QR closure force in mind ...

I am wondering - who made the dropouts on your bike, are they labeled?
Are they a major brand - campagnolo, shimano, or suntour? To work
properly, the dropouts probably have to be very soft, mild steel so
that they "give" or "moosh" when you clamp the QR on tightly.

Also the QR teeth must "bite" into the frame to work. If the teeth
have been smoothed out by repeated opening or by slipping, the quick
release might be toast, and you would need to purchase a new QR:

http://www.loosescrews.com/index.cgi?d=single&c=Hub&sc=Skewers&tc=Rear&item_id=JY-103&id=860198510660

The chrome layer is less than 1/1000th of an inch thick - its highly
unlikely that stripping the chrome would make a difference in QR
gripping strength.

- Don Gillies
San Diego, CA

Probably the first thing to try is to thoroughly de-grease the
dropouts and quick releases with a good grease and/or oil destroying
soap.

- Don Gillies
San Diego, CA

Probably the first thing to try is to thoroughly de-grease

1. the dropouts (front and back side)
2. the hub locknuts
3. the quick release skewers

with a good oil/grease-destroying soap.

If the QR is slipping and the chrome IS STILL looking shiny on the
dropouts, then your QRs (and/or hub locknut(s)) have most likely lost
their "biting teeth" and need replacement. I would expect a slipped
QR or locknut to shred the chrome if it's doing its job properly.

- Don Gillies
San Diego, CA

Collin O'Neill said:

Hi there,

I have an '80s racing frame with some nice chromed horizontal dropouts.
My wheels use American Classic hubs and I can't get the [censored] to
stay in the dropouts without forcing the quick-release skewer shut with
a clamp. The American Classic skewers have steel knurls, and I've tried
Shimano steel skewers as well. I've also tried some allen-key skewers
and they don't hold at all,most likely because the knurls are aluminum
and not steel.

Allen-key skewers cannot be closed nearly as tightly as QR levers, since
the allen-key kind need to twist the skewer to advance the threads, which
can lead to snapping it off much more easily than with a lever.

Check to be sure that the ends of the axle are not contacting the QR ends
when clamping down. If the dropouts are thinner than the wheelmaker
thought it would be, the QR can clamp down on the axle end rather than
the dropout. Easy to fix; just grind off a bit of the end of the axle.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | A mathematician is a machine for turning coffee into theorems.
_`\(,_ | -- Paul Erdos
(_)/ (_) |

Collin O'Neill said:

Hi there,

I have an '80s racing frame with some nice chromed horizontal dropouts.
My wheels use American Classic hubs and I can't get the [censored] to
stay in the dropouts without forcing the quick-release skewer shut with
a clamp. The American Classic skewers have steel knurls, and I've tried
Shimano steel skewers as well. I've also tried some allen-key skewers
and they don't hold at all,most likely because the knurls are aluminum
and not steel.

As soon as I put some torque on it the wheel pulls out of the drive side
dropout.

Is there anything I can do to improve the grip short of stripping the
chrome off the dropouts entirely? Is there some special, heavy-duty
skewer I can look into? What about abrading the chrome at the dropout?

Have the alignment of the rear dropouts checked at a good bike shop to
make sure that they are parallel. If they are not, this can contribute
to the problem that you are describing.

Matt O'Toole said:

Collin O'Neill said:

Hi there,

I have an '80s racing frame with some nice chromed horizontal dropouts.
My wheels use American Classic hubs and I can't get the [censored] to
stay in the dropouts without forcing the quick-release skewer shut with
a clamp. The American Classic skewers have steel knurls, and I've tried
Shimano steel skewers as well. I've also tried some allen-key skewers
and they don't hold at all,most likely because the knurls are aluminum
and not steel.

As soon as I put some torque on it the wheel pulls out of the drive side
dropout.

Is there anything I can do to improve the grip short of stripping the
chrome off the dropouts entirely? Is there some special, heavy-duty
skewer I can look into? What about abrading the chrome at the dropout?

You might try an older Campagnolo QR skewer, which have the strongest
clamping force. There's quite a difference between these and modern
skewers, which are made for light weight, and have as little as half the
clamping force. The common, external cam ones are especially weak.

I'll try the Campy skewer - I can trade out the 80s Campy skewer on my
trek with the AC version.

Quoted message said:

One thing being overlooked is how parallel your dropouts are. I'm not sure
the best way to determine or fix this though.

I just had the rear respaced and aligned to 130mm last week. The problem
is the same now as it was before.

Quoted message said:

Matt O.

Thanks for the help!

I've had the same problem with an 80's racing frame (fully chrome).
Mavic skewers would slip.
When I changed over to Shimano Ultegra and put them on tight, no
slippage.

Bent dropouts are more likely to cause broken axles than wheel
slippage.

Lugging in a huge gear would make it slip more often. Keep the rpms
up.

R

Collin O'Neill said:

Hi there,

I have an '80s racing frame with some nice chromed horizontal dropouts.
My wheels use American Classic hubs and I can't get the [censored] to
stay in the dropouts without forcing the quick-release skewer shut with
a clamp. The American Classic skewers have steel knurls, and I've tried
Shimano steel skewers as well. I've also tried some allen-key skewers
and they don't hold at all,most likely because the knurls are aluminum
and not steel.

As soon as I put some torque on it the wheel pulls out of the drive side
dropout.

Is there anything I can do to improve the grip short of stripping the
chrome off the dropouts entirely? Is there some special, heavy-duty
skewer I can look into? What about abrading the chrome at the dropout?

Thanks
Collin

In article
<[email hidden]>,

Collin O'Neill said:

Hi there,

I have an '80s racing frame with some nice chromed horizontal dropouts.
My wheels use American Classic hubs and I can't get the [censored] to
stay in the dropouts without forcing the quick-release skewer shut with
a clamp. The American Classic skewers have steel knurls, and I've tried
Shimano steel skewers as well. I've also tried some allen-key skewers
and they don't hold at all,most likely because the knurls are aluminum
and not steel.

As soon as I put some torque on it the wheel pulls out of the drive side
dropout.

Is there anything I can do to improve the grip short of stripping the
chrome off the dropouts entirely? Is there some special, heavy-duty
skewer I can look into? What about abrading the chrome at the dropout?

May be too early to blame the QR clamps. I have had this
problem: the axle was too long and at least one axle end
extended to the outside of the drop out. Impossible to
clamp securely. I cut a few millimeters off the axle and
dressed the cut edge. It clamped securely after that.

--
Michael Press

Collin O'Neill said:

Hi there,

I have an '80s racing frame with some nice chromed horizontal dropouts.
My wheels use American Classic hubs and I can't get the [censored] to
stay in the dropouts without forcing the quick-release skewer shut with
a clamp. The American Classic skewers have steel knurls, and I've tried
Shimano steel skewers as well. I've also tried some allen-key skewers
and they don't hold at all,most likely because the knurls are aluminum
and not steel.

As soon as I put some torque on it the wheel pulls out of the drive side
dropout.

Is there anything I can do to improve the grip short of stripping the
chrome off the dropouts entirely? Is there some special, heavy-duty
skewer I can look into? What about abrading the chrome at the dropout?

You might try an older Campagnolo QR skewer, which have the strongest
clamping force. There's quite a difference between these and modern
skewers, which are made for light weight, and have as little as half the
clamping force. The common, external cam ones are especially weak.

One thing being overlooked is how parallel your dropouts are. I'm not sure
the best way to determine or fix this though.

Matt O.

Collin O'Neill said:

Matt O'Toole wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

One thing being overlooked is how parallel your dropouts are. I'm not
sure the best way to determine or fix this though.

Quoted message said:

I just had the rear respaced and aligned to 130mm last week. The problem
is the same now as it was before.

Ah, but are the dropouts parallel? If they started out parallel and the
stays were spread, they're not parallel anymore. And that's assuming they
were parallel to begin with. Unfortunately, few shops have the tools or
knowledge to check this, let alone fix it.

Matt O.

Collin O'Neill said:

Hi there,

I have an '80s racing frame with some nice chromed horizontal dropouts.
My wheels use American Classic hubs and I can't get the [censored] to
stay in the dropouts without forcing the quick-release skewer shut with
a clamp. The American Classic skewers have steel knurls, and I've tried
Shimano steel skewers as well. I've also tried some allen-key skewers
and they don't hold at all,most likely because the knurls are aluminum
and not steel.

As soon as I put some torque on it the wheel pulls out of the drive side
dropout.

Is there anything I can do to improve the grip short of stripping the
chrome off the dropouts entirely? Is there some special, heavy-duty
skewer I can look into? What about abrading the chrome at the dropout?

Thanks
Collin

Thanks for all your great suggestions. Here's the synopsis:

1. I re-cleaned all the contact surfaces with degreaser to make sure
there was no grease left on them
2. The mechanic made the ends parallel when he respaced the rear
3. The axle is not too long - there is about 2.5 - 3 mm of space between
the end of the axle and the skewer when it's fully depressed.
5. The AC skewers are aluminum on one side, which is just too soft.
Those came off the bike as well as the allen-key skewers.
4. I dug into the bin for the oldest, ugliest Shimano skewer (it was
bent) and used that. The steel knurls looked good. That fixed it! High
torque doesn't pull the wheel out anymore.

Again, thanks. It turned out to be a super simple solution.

In article
<[email hidden]>,

Collin O'Neill said:

Collin O'Neill said:

Hi there,

I have an '80s racing frame with some nice chromed horizontal dropouts.
My wheels use American Classic hubs and I can't get the [censored] to
stay in the dropouts without forcing the quick-release skewer shut with
a clamp. The American Classic skewers have steel knurls, and I've tried
Shimano steel skewers as well. I've also tried some allen-key skewers
and they don't hold at all,most likely because the knurls are aluminum
and not steel.

As soon as I put some torque on it the wheel pulls out of the drive side
dropout.

Is there anything I can do to improve the grip short of stripping the
chrome off the dropouts entirely? Is there some special, heavy-duty
skewer I can look into? What about abrading the chrome at the dropout?

Thanks
Collin

Thanks for all your great suggestions. Here's the synopsis:

1. I re-cleaned all the contact surfaces with degreaser to make sure
there was no grease left on them
2. The mechanic made the ends parallel when he respaced the rear
3. The axle is not too long - there is about 2.5 - 3 mm of space between
the end of the axle and the skewer when it's fully depressed.
5. The AC skewers are aluminum on one side, which is just too soft.
Those came off the bike as well as the allen-key skewers.
4. I dug into the bin for the oldest, ugliest Shimano skewer (it was
bent) and used that. The steel knurls looked good. That fixed it! High
torque doesn't pull the wheel out anymore.

Again, thanks. It turned out to be a super simple solution.

Simple, once you put in a good hard effort discovering the
exact state of affairs. :-)

--
Michael Press

"Collin O'Neill" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Hi there,

I have an '80s racing frame with some nice chromed horizontal dropouts. My
wheels use American Classic hubs and I can't get the [censored] to stay in
the dropouts without forcing the quick-release skewer shut with a clamp.
The American Classic skewers have steel knurls, and I've tried Shimano
steel skewers as well. I've also tried some allen-key skewers and they
don't hold at all,most likely because the knurls are aluminum and not
steel.

As soon as I put some torque on it the wheel pulls out of the drive side
dropout.

Is there anything I can do to improve the grip short of stripping the
chrome off the dropouts entirely? Is there some special, heavy-duty skewer
I can look into? What about abrading the chrome at the dropout?

Thanks
Collin

What you really need is a Tug Nut or chain tensioer like the Surley Tugnut
device. http://www.webcyclery.com/product.php?productid=16573&cat=405&page=1
You only need to put it on one side, but two probably wouldn't hurt even if
it is overkill, it would allow for more sensitive adjusting.
Then when you torque down on the cranks, the axle can't slide forward as the
tugnut is locking it in place.
You almost see these types of tensioners on all the track bikes even if they
are using bolt on axles and not QR's.

In article <[email hidden]>, Earl

Bollinger () said:

What you really need is a Tug Nut or chain tensioer like the Surley Tugnut
device. http://www.webcyclery.com/product.php?productid=16573&cat=405&page=1
You only need to put it on one side, but two probably wouldn't hurt even if
it is overkill, it would allow for more sensitive adjusting.
Then when you torque down on the cranks, the axle can't slide forward as the
tugnut is locking it in place.
You almost see these types of tensioners on all the track bikes even if they
are using bolt on axles and not QR's.

Chaintugs /can/ be used with horizontal drop-outs (as opposed to track
ends), but if the trailing edge of the dropout is curved - as is the
case with the Campag dropouts on my fixer - a bit of surgery thereupon
with a file may be required to get the chaintug to stay put.

--
Dave Larrington - <http://www.legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uk/>
A complimentary biro(tm) is /not/ to be sniffed at.

Earl Bollinger said:

"Collin O'Neill" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Hi there,

I have an '80s racing frame with some nice chromed horizontal dropouts. My
wheels use American Classic hubs and I can't get the [censored] to stay in
the dropouts without forcing the quick-release skewer shut with a clamp.
The American Classic skewers have steel knurls, and I've tried Shimano
steel skewers as well. I've also tried some allen-key skewers and they
don't hold at all,most likely because the knurls are aluminum and not
steel.

As soon as I put some torque on it the wheel pulls out of the drive side
dropout.

Is there anything I can do to improve the grip short of stripping the
chrome off the dropouts entirely? Is there some special, heavy-duty skewer
I can look into? What about abrading the chrome at the dropout?

Thanks
Collin

What you really need is a Tug Nut or chain tensioer like the Surley Tugnut
device. http://www.webcyclery.com/product.php?productid=16573&cat=405&page=1
You only need to put it on one side, but two probably wouldn't hurt even if
it is overkill, it would allow for more sensitive adjusting.
Then when you torque down on the cranks, the axle can't slide forward as the
tugnut is locking it in place.
You almost see these types of tensioners on all the track bikes even if they
are using bolt on axles and not QR's.

I never read the fine print on these items, and thought you could only
use them for track ends. But you're right, it says "horizontal
dropouts". I've considered using them on the fixie but frankly I never
needed it. I don't need a $24 bottle opener.

Well, if my grungy ancient Shimano skewer fails I'll take this approach.

On 6/13/06 8:23 AM, in article
[email hidden], "Collin O'Neill"

Quoted message said:

Hi there,

I have an '80s racing frame with some nice chromed horizontal dropouts.
My wheels use American Classic hubs and I can't get the [censored] to
stay in the dropouts without forcing the quick-release skewer shut with
a clamp. The American Classic skewers have steel knurls, and I've tried
Shimano steel skewers as well. I've also tried some allen-key skewers
and they don't hold at all,most likely because the knurls are aluminum
and not steel.

As soon as I put some torque on it the wheel pulls out of the drive side
dropout.

Is there anything I can do to improve the grip short of stripping the
chrome off the dropouts entirely? Is there some special, heavy-duty
skewer I can look into? What about abrading the chrome at the dropout?

Thanks
Collin

Are the dropouts aligned??