Fixing Loose Spokes

"Clippy" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

A mate who brought a new bike sold me the wheels off it as he already had a
preferred set. I've only covered 60 miles (pretty tame terrain and no big
bashes) but whilst out on it a couple of days ago I felt the rear twitch a
little and noticed a couple of spokes have worked quite loose.

I've always steered clear of this thinking it's something of a 'black art'
but decided to have a go at sorting the problem as there is no decent LBS
anywhere near me. Having digested all the information I could find i've
now worked round the wheel and tightened all the spokes and the wheel is
nice and true but I'm just not sure if I have confidence in it!

Could the wheel completely collapse under me or would it just flex and
bend at least giving me a warning something's gone wrong! Why did the
spokes come loose in the first place, is there a more serious underlying
problem I should check out first? Am I just worrying too much and they
will be ok so long as I check them regularly?

The wheels won't explode. They'll get loose, and they'll track all funny as
if your tire is flat. Do as you said and check your tension every once in a
while.

Quoted message said:

The wheels are Mavic 819 UST rims on Shimano XT hubs with I think DT swiss
spokes.

Thanks in advance for any help.

They were possibly undertensioned from the factory.

How much do you weigh?

--
Phil

Clippy said:

A mate who brought a new bike sold me the wheels off it as he already
had a preferred set. I've only covered 60 miles (pretty tame terrain
and no big bashes) but whilst out on it a couple of days ago I felt the
rear twitch a little and noticed a couple of spokes have worked quite loose.

I've always steered clear of this thinking it's something of a 'black
art' but decided to have a go at sorting the problem as there is no
decent LBS anywhere near me. Having digested all the information I
could find i've now worked round the wheel and tightened all the spokes
and the wheel is nice and true but I'm just not sure if I have
confidence in it!

Could the wheel completely collapse under me or would it just flex and
bend at least giving me a warning something's gone wrong! Why did the
spokes come loose in the first place, is there a more serious underlying
problem I should check out first? Am I just worrying too much and they
will be ok so long as I check them regularly?

The wheels are Mavic 819 UST rims on Shimano XT hubs with I think DT
swiss spokes.

Thanks in advance for any help.

Clippy

Spoke tesnsion is required on each spoke. Tension balance helps spread the load evenly. No tension means the spoke isn't supporting the rim at all.
If the rim is bent/dented it will remove tension from the spokes surrounding the dmaged section. If the rim isn't now damaged, it is more likely to be damaged due to lack of spoke support.
Would you walk on a bridge with missing support members?
Would you walk on it during a windy day?
Would you jump up-and-down on it right above the missing support member?
Would you have all your friends and family join you in these exercises?
Your wheels are expensive and a very vial part of riding... including emergency situations. I would tend to the loose spokes as soon as possible.

daveornee said:

Spoke tesnsion is required on each spoke. Tension balance helps spread
the load evenly. No tension means the spoke isn't supporting the rim at
all.
If the rim is bent/dented it will remove tension from the spokes
surrounding the dmaged section. If the rim isn't now damaged, it is
more likely to be damaged due to lack of spoke support.
Would you walk on a bridge with missing support members?
Would you walk on it during a windy day?
Would you jump up-and-down on it right above the missing support
member?
Would you have all your friends and family join you in these
exercises?
Your wheels are expensive and a very vial part of riding... including
emergency situations. I would tend to the loose spokes as soon as
possible.

Yeah thanks for the info, I understand how they work and how vital it is
to be done correctly and I have tended to the loose spokes already. My
question was do you think it wise I done this myself and what is likely
to happen if they loosen up again on a ride...? A bit of bad tracking
that's noticeable before a major off or am I looking at a possible
sudden wheel collapse or something.

Phil said:

The wheels won't explode. They'll get loose, and they'll track all funny as
if your tire is flat. Do as you said and check your tension every once in a
while.

Quoted message said:

The wheels are Mavic 819 UST rims on Shimano XT hubs with I think DT swiss
spokes.

Thanks in advance for any help.

They were possibly undertensioned from the factory.

How much do you weigh?

Thanks for the reply. Feel a bit better about the situation now knowing
they are unlikely to completely go from under me. As regards weight i'm
not the lightest, around the 220lb mark.

quote='Clippy'daveornee said:

Spoke tesnsion is required on each spoke. Tension balance helps spread
the load evenly. No tension means the spoke isn't supporting the rim at
all.
If the rim is bent/dented it will remove tension from the spokes
surrounding the dmaged section. If the rim isn't now damaged, it is
more likely to be damaged due to lack of spoke support.
Would you walk on a bridge with missing support members?
Would you walk on it during a windy day?
Would you jump up-and-down on it right above the missing support
member?
Would you have all your friends and family join you in these
exercises?
Your wheels are expensive and a very vial part of riding... including
emergency situations. I would tend to the loose spokes as soon as
possible.

Yeah thanks for the info, I understand how they work and how vital it is
to be done correctly and I have tended to the loose spokes already. My
question was do you think it wise I done this myself and what is likely
to happen if they loosen up again on a ride...? A bit of bad tracking
that's noticeable before a major off or am I looking at a possible
sudden wheel collapse or something.[/QUOTE]
My ponit of asking all the "Would you..." questions was that there are many differing dynamic load situations presented to wheels. If your "emergency" situation presented the worst case scenario to the wheel you could collapse it suddenly. I have seen it happen and the results were not something I ever want to see again. It would be better to have all the spokes in tension - done by yourself; than ride with them loose and suffer the consequences. It sounded from your response to me like you want to accept only a certain range of answers. I am trying to be helpful from my experience in building over 500 wheels and 250,000+ miles of riding.
Spoke tensioning isn't difficult, but it does take some time and patience to get it down. A truing stand, spoke tension guage, centering tool, an ear for tonal differences, and a good spoke tool all help.
Are you confident that the rim(s) are not damaged?

daveornee said:

Clippy said:

daveornee said:

Spoke tesnsion is required on each spoke. Tension balance helps
spread the load evenly. No tension means the spoke isn't
supporting the rim at all.
If the rim is bent/dented it will remove tension from the spokes
surrounding the dmaged section. If the rim isn't now damaged, it is
more likely to be damaged due to lack of spoke support.
Would you walk on a bridge with missing support members?
Would you walk on it during a windy day?
Would you jump up-and-down on it right above the missing support
member?
Would you have all your friends and family join you in these
exercises?
Your wheels are expensive and a very vial part of riding...
including emergency situations. I would tend to the loose spokes
as soon as possible.

Yeah thanks for the info, I understand how they work and how vital it
is
to be done correctly and I have tended to the loose spokes already.
My
question was do you think it wise I done this myself and what is
likely
to happen if they loosen up again on a ride...? A bit of bad tracking
that's noticeable before a major off or am I looking at a possible
sudden wheel collapse or something.

My ponit of asking all the "Would you..." questions was that there are
many differing dynamic load situations presented to wheels. If your
"emergency" situation presented the worst case scenario to the wheel
you could collapse it suddenly. I have seen it happen and the results
were not something I ever want to see again. It would be better to
have all the spokes in tension - done by yourself; than ride with them
loose and suffer the consequences. It sounded from your response to
me like you want to accept only a certain range of answers. I am
trying to be helpful from my experience in building over 500 wheels
and 250,000+ miles of riding.
Spoke tensioning isn't difficult, but it does take some time and
patience to get it down. A truing stand, spoke tension guage,
centering tool, an ear for tonal differences, and a good spoke tool
all help.
Are you confident that the rim(s) are not damaged?

I would have just said that they're not going to explode due to low spoke
tension... The OP stated that he or she tensioned up some loose spokes, and
now they're "nice and true." That's it. What's with all the irrelevant
badgering?

The closest concern I would have is if the spoke tensions are uneven, the
rim may pop into different lowest-energy configurations (pretzeling), which
is hardly catastrophic

--
Phil

Clippy said:

do you think it wise I done this myself

Yes it can be wise ; an amateur will take much more time doing this
than a pro that might cut corners looking for financial efficience...
In some cases pro work can be badly done (I've seen wheels coming from
factories or a repair by a LBS with almost loose spokes...), so don't
underestimate yourself!
This is neither black magic nor rocket science, just a question of
mechanical common sense and mostly patience and perseverance.

Quoted message said:

and what is likely
to happen if they loosen up again on a ride...? A bit of bad tracking
that's noticeable before a major off

Yes, mainly.
Spokes loosening can be avoided with
- care in trueing, to ensure that turning the spoke nipple actually
screws it on instead of winding the spoke - the latter can be feeled
with fingers on the spoke, and/or by screwing off a bit the nipple,
- some preloading (some people simply exert lateral loads on the wheel
but you need some care to do that without damaging light rims, others
go ride the wheel for some time, longer but maybe safer) and
re-trueing, to ensure spoke are all well sitted in the hub and unwinded
if necessary,
- ensuring tension is very even across the spokes, see
http://www.bikexprt.com/bicycle/tension.htm for a practical and
effective tool to judge that,
- some spoke prep (Loctite242, or easier to find and much cheaper but
less effective, linen (flax?) oil), to glue the nipple in desired
position.

Quoted message said:

or am I looking at a possible
sudden wheel collapse or something.

A sudden collapse is always possible with any wheel! All you need is an
adapted load ;o). But it is highly unlikely if the wheel is (more or
less properly) tensioned.
Of course, with more than a few loose spokes, it becomes less unlikely,
but see how starwars wheels like many high-end ones resist with half
the spokes of a conventional wheel!

quote='Phil said:

Clippy said:

daveornee said:

Spoke tesnsion is required on each spoke. Tension balance helps
spread the load evenly. No tension means the spoke isn't
supporting the rim at all.
If the rim is bent/dented it will remove tension from the spokes
surrounding the dmaged section. If the rim isn't now damaged, it is
more likely to be damaged due to lack of spoke support.
Would you walk on a bridge with missing support members?
Would you walk on it during a windy day?
Would you jump up-and-down on it right above the missing support
member?
Would you have all your friends and family join you in these
exercises?
Your wheels are expensive and a very vial part of riding...
including emergency situations. I would tend to the loose spokes
as soon as possible.

Yeah thanks for the info, I understand how they work and how vital it
is
to be done correctly and I have tended to the loose spokes already.
My
question was do you think it wise I done this myself and what is
likely
to happen if they loosen up again on a ride...? A bit of bad tracking
that's noticeable before a major off or am I looking at a possible
sudden wheel collapse or something.

My ponit of asking all the "Would you..." questions was that there are
many differing dynamic load situations presented to wheels. If your
"emergency" situation presented the worst case scenario to the wheel
you could collapse it suddenly. I have seen it happen and the results
were not something I ever want to see again. It would be better to
have all the spokes in tension - done by yourself; than ride with them
loose and suffer the consequences. It sounded from your response to
me like you want to accept only a certain range of answers. I am
trying to be helpful from my experience in building over 500 wheels
and 250,000+ miles of riding.
Spoke tensioning isn't difficult, but it does take some time and
patience to get it down. A truing stand, spoke tension guage,
centering tool, an ear for tonal differences, and a good spoke tool
all help.
Are you confident that the rim(s) are not damaged?

I would have just said that they're not going to explode due to low spoke
tension... The OP stated that he or she tensioned up some loose spokes, and
now they're "nice and true." That's it. What's with all the irrelevant
badgering?

The closest concern I would have is if the spoke tensions are uneven, the
rim may pop into different lowest-energy configurations (pretzeling), which
is hardly catastrophic

--
Phil[/QUOTE]
No badgering intended. I didn't read the original post very well, I guess.
The confidence factor and the "nice and true" had me wondering and still am wondering why the wheel(s) had loose spokes.
The wheel collapse I saw was a 100 kg rider who had a few loose spokes in the rear. I offered to check over the wheel before a long descent. The rider said no thanks. A few km down he crashed due to a collapsed wheel and put himself into the hospital due to an uncontrollable skid.
It is likely that my memory was so vivid about the crash that I didn't focus on the scenario presented here.

daveornee said:

Phil said:

daveornee said:

Clippy Wrote:
> daveornee wrote:
>
>> Spoke tesnsion is required on each spoke. Tension balance helps
>> spread the load evenly. No tension means the spoke isn't
>> supporting the rim at all.
>> If the rim is bent/dented it will remove tension from the spokes
>> surrounding the dmaged section. If the rim isn't now damaged, it
>> is more likely to be damaged due to lack of spoke support.
>> Would you walk on a bridge with missing support members?
>> Would you walk on it during a windy day?
>> Would you jump up-and-down on it right above the missing support
>> member?
>> Would you have all your friends and family join you in these
>> exercises?
>> Your wheels are expensive and a very vial part of riding...
>> including emergency situations. I would tend to the loose spokes
>> as soon as possible.
>>
>>
>
> Yeah thanks for the info, I understand how they work and how vital
> it is
> to be done correctly and I have tended to the loose spokes already.
> My
> question was do you think it wise I done this myself and what is
> likely
> to happen if they loosen up again on a ride...? A bit of bad
> tracking that's noticeable before a major off or am I looking at a
> possible sudden wheel collapse or something.
My ponit of asking all the "Would you..." questions was that there
are many differing dynamic load situations presented to wheels. If
your "emergency" situation presented the worst case scenario to the
wheel you could collapse it suddenly. I have seen it happen and
the results were not something I ever want to see again. It would
be better to have all the spokes in tension - done by yourself;
than ride with them loose and suffer the consequences. It sounded
from your response to me like you want to accept only a certain
range of answers. I am trying to be helpful from my experience in
building over 500 wheels and 250,000+ miles of riding.
Spoke tensioning isn't difficult, but it does take some time and
patience to get it down. A truing stand, spoke tension guage,
centering tool, an ear for tonal differences, and a good spoke tool
all help.
Are you confident that the rim(s) are not damaged?

I would have just said that they're not going to explode due to low
spoke
tension... The OP stated that he or she tensioned up some loose
spokes, and
now they're "nice and true." That's it. What's with all the
irrelevant
badgering?

The closest concern I would have is if the spoke tensions are uneven,
the
rim may pop into different lowest-energy configurations (pretzeling),
which
is hardly catastrophic

--
Phil

No badgering intended. I didn't read the original post very well, I
guess.
The confidence factor and the "nice and true" had me wondering and
still am wondering why the wheel(s) had loose spokes.
The wheel collapse I saw was a 100 kg rider who had a few loose spokes
in the rear. I offered to check over the wheel before a long descent.
The rider said no thanks. A few km down he crashed due to a collapsed
wheel and put himself into the hospital due to an uncontrollable skid.
It is likely that my memory was so vivid about the crash that I didn't
focus on the scenario presented here.

Understood... I would be overly cautious, too if someone had crashed
horrifically due to a declined check-up offer, too. It's probably the
feeling of passive responsibility that's got you concerned.
--
Phil

daveornee said:

Phil said:

daveornee said:

Clippy Wrote:
> daveornee wrote:
>
>> Spoke tesnsion is required on each spoke. Tension balance helps
>> spread the load evenly. No tension means the spoke isn't
>> supporting the rim at all.
>> If the rim is bent/dented it will remove tension from the spokes
>> surrounding the dmaged section. If the rim isn't now damaged, it

is

Quoted message said:

>> more likely to be damaged due to lack of spoke support.
>> Would you walk on a bridge with missing support members?
>> Would you walk on it during a windy day?
>> Would you jump up-and-down on it right above the missing support
>> member?
>> Would you have all your friends and family join you in these
>> exercises?
>> Your wheels are expensive and a very vial part of riding...
>> including emergency situations. I would tend to the loose spokes
>> as soon as possible.
>>
>>
> Yeah thanks for the info, I understand how they work and how vital

it

Quoted message said:

> is
> to be done correctly and I have tended to the loose spokes already.
> My
> question was do you think it wise I done this myself and what is
> likely
> to happen if they loosen up again on a ride...? A bit of bad

tracking

Quoted message said:

> that's noticeable before a major off or am I looking at a possible
> sudden wheel collapse or something.
My ponit of asking all the "Would you..." questions was that there

are

Quoted message said:

many differing dynamic load situations presented to wheels. If your
"emergency" situation presented the worst case scenario to the wheel
you could collapse it suddenly. I have seen it happen and the

results

Quoted message said:

were not something I ever want to see again. It would be better to
have all the spokes in tension - done by yourself; than ride with

them

Quoted message said:

loose and suffer the consequences. It sounded from your response to
me like you want to accept only a certain range of answers. I am
trying to be helpful from my experience in building over 500 wheels
and 250,000+ miles of riding.
Spoke tensioning isn't difficult, but it does take some time and
patience to get it down. A truing stand, spoke tension guage,
centering tool, an ear for tonal differences, and a good spoke tool
all help.
Are you confident that the rim(s) are not damaged?

I would have just said that they're not going to explode due to low
spoke
tension... The OP stated that he or she tensioned up some loose
spokes, and
now they're "nice and true." That's it. What's with all the
irrelevant
badgering?

The closest concern I would have is if the spoke tensions are uneven,
the
rim may pop into different lowest-energy configurations (pretzeling),
which
is hardly catastrophic

--
Phil

No badgering intended. I didn't read the original post very well, I
guess.
The confidence factor and the "nice and true" had me wondering and
still am wondering why the wheel(s) had loose spokes.
The wheel collapse I saw was a 100 kg rider who had a few loose spokes
in the rear. I offered to check over the wheel before a long descent.
The rider said no thanks. A few km down he crashed due to a collapsed
wheel and put himself into the hospital due to an uncontrollable skid.
It is likely that my memory was so vivid about the crash that I didn't
focus on the scenario presented here.

Thanks to both of you for the help and the advice. daveornee, I
certainly take on board what you say about all the possible situations
that could occur (including the nasty ones!) Didn't mean it to sound
like I was choosing to ignore your input.

I've just completed a 20 mile ride and everything still seems ok with
the wheel at the moment. Of course I will still carry on checking it
regularly still and fingers crossed.

Again thanks for the info and help.

Clippy

Clippy said:

I've just completed a 20 mile ride and everything still seems ok with
the wheel at the moment. Of course I will still carry on checking it
regularly still and fingers crossed.

Check for evenness of tension on each side. The left side will be less
than the drive side, but just check that all the spokes on each side
are even... plucking tone works well.

If the tension isn't even on each side, then try evening it out. If the
wheels is now not true, then the rim is likely bent.

Another reason why spokes come loose is because the tension is too low,
causing the spokes to go slack and the nipples to turn. If that is the
problem then try increasing the tension a bit.

Ron Ruff said:

Clippy said:

I've just completed a 20 mile ride and everything still seems ok with
the wheel at the moment. Of course I will still carry on checking it
regularly still and fingers crossed.

Check for evenness of tension on each side. The left side will be less
than the drive side, but just check that all the spokes on each side
are even... plucking tone works well.

If the tension isn't even on each side, then try evening it out. If
the wheels is now not true, then the rim is likely bent.

Another reason why spokes come loose is because the tension is too
low, causing the spokes to go slack and the nipples to turn. If that
is the problem then try increasing the tension a bit.

For the OP's reference, Ron is speaking of the rear wheel specifically. If
it's the front wheel, the tensions should be even on both sides.
--
Phil