Landis' aerobars

"Robert Chung" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Here's how Landis set up his aerobars:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2006/jun06/dauphinelibere06/?id=/photos/2006/jun06/dauphinelibere06/dauphinelibere060/Dauphine06-pg-012

For comparison, here's Menchov:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2006/jun06/dauphinelibere06/?id=/photos/2006/jun06/dauphinelibere06/dauphinelibere060/Dauphine06-pg-009

Landis set his up in a wind tunnel. Mechov probably set them up from looking
at photographs.

In article <[email hidden]>,

Tom Kunich said:

"Robert Chung" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Here's how Landis set up his aerobars:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2006/jun06/dauphinelibere06/?id=/photos/20
06/jun06/dauphinelibere06/dauphinelibere060/Dauphine06-pg-012

For comparison, here's Menchov:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2006/jun06/dauphinelibere06/?id=/photos/20
06/jun06/dauphinelibere06/dauphinelibere060/Dauphine06-pg-009

Landis set his up in a wind tunnel. Mechov probably set them up from looking
at photographs.

What I notice from those shots (and Landis has used pretty much this
position all year) is that Floyd has a remarkably low frontal area.

I'm not going to google up the link, but Landis has said that his
position is partly a result of UCI rules preventing him from using the
now-popular flat-bar position, roughly demonstrated by Menchov (I think
he's doing it wrong).

I believe the core of the problem is that Landis would not be able to
comfortably get out and flat with his arms without moving his saddle
illegally far forward. Despite that, he gets very good aero results from
his position, which looks like a UCI-legal Obree "mantis" to me.

--
Ryan Cousineau [email hidden] http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos

Tom Kunich said:

"Robert Chung" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Here's how Landis set up his aerobars:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2006/jun06/dauphinelibere06/?id=/photos/2006/jun06/dauphinelibere06/dauphinelibere060/Dauphine06-pg-012

For comparison, here's Menchov:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2006/jun06/dauphinelibere06/?id=/photos/2006/jun06/dauphinelibere06/dauphinelibere060/Dauphine06-pg-009

Landis set his up in a wind tunnel. Menchov probably set them up from looking
at photographs.

No, all ProTour teams do wind tunnel tests these days
http://www.tno.nl/industrie_en_techniek/actueel/tno_nieuws/2006/rabo_wielerploeg_in_windt/index.xml

Jenko

Jenko said:

Tom Kunich said:

Landis set his up in a wind tunnel. Menchov probably set them up from looking
at photographs.

No, all ProTour teams do wind tunnel tests these days
http://www.tno.nl/industrie_en_techniek/actueel/tno_nieuws/2006/rabo_wielerploeg_in_windt/index.xml

I designed and built a wind tunnel for small components when I was
working at a company designing flow detectors. So I have a little
experience with airflow and detection. I've seen three photographs now
of the Rabobank guys and unless those photographs were purposely staged
to show the wrong sort of positions, I can't see how those positions
could possibly result in good aero results. The open chest area in
particular has been cited in articles about aero positions as greatly
increasing drag. That's why Landis uses the tilted up bars to close
that area up.

Tom Kunich said:

I designed and built a wind tunnel for small components when I was
working at a company designing flow detectors. So I have a little
experience with airflow and detection. I've seen three photographs now
of the Rabobank guys and unless those photographs were purposely staged
to show the wrong sort of positions, I can't see how those positions
could possibly result in good aero results. The open chest area in
particular has been cited in articles about aero positions as greatly
increasing drag. That's why Landis uses the tilted up bars to close
that area up.

Why would someone need a wind tunnel to tell them that?
"Hmmm. How about this - let's create a big pocket against the broadest
surface to block air flow."
"Good idea!"

R

Ryan Cousineau said:

I believe the core of the problem is that Landis would not be able to
comfortably get out and flat with his arms without moving his saddle
illegally far forward.

dumbass,

his (effective) saddle position IS far forward. there is a rule that
limits how far ahead of the bike the extensions may reach, if he
dropped them vertical, the way most riders have them, they would reach
out too far.

Quoted message said:

I've seen three photographs now
of the Rabobank guys and unless those photographs were purposely staged
to show the wrong sort of positions, I can't see how those positions
could possibly result in good aero results.

Rasmussen (also Rabobank) uses a position like Landis:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2006/giro06/index.php?id=giro_bikes4/IMG_0469

"Tom Kunich" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Jenko said:

Tom Kunich said:

Landis set his up in a wind tunnel. Menchov probably set them up from looking
at photographs.

No, all ProTour teams do wind tunnel tests these days
http://www.tno.nl/industrie_en_techniek/actueel/tno_nieuws/2006/rabo_wielerploeg_in_windt/index.xml

I designed and built a wind tunnel for small components when I was
working at a company designing flow detectors. So I have a little
experience with airflow and detection. I've seen three photographs now
of the Rabobank guys and unless those photographs were purposely staged
to show the wrong sort of positions, I can't see how those positions
could possibly result in good aero results. The open chest area in
particular has been cited in articles about aero positions as greatly
increasing drag. That's why Landis uses the tilted up bars to close
that area up.

"Robert Chung" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Here's how Landis set up his aerobars:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2006/jun06/dauphinelibere06/?id=/photos/2006/jun06/dauphinelibere06/dauphinelibere060/Dauphine06-pg-012

For comparison, here's Menchov:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2006/jun06/dauphinelibere06/?id=/photos/2006/jun06/dauphinelibere06/dauphinelibere060/Dauphine06-pg-009

I don't think this is a one-size-fits-all kind of thing - there are
tradeoffs wherein a more aero position simply doesn't let you pedal or
breath as well and results in an overall deficit in performance. It
looks like Menchov's back is already flatter than Landis', i.e.,
Menchov's hips are higher in relation to his shoulders than Landis'.
Looks like Menchov's legs are quite a bit longer than Landis'.

-S-

Steve Freides said:

I don't think this is a one-size-fits-all kind of thing - there are
tradeoffs wherein a more aero position simply doesn't let you pedal or
breath as well and results in an overall deficit in performance. It
looks like Menchov's back is already flatter than Landis', i.e.,
Menchov's hips are higher in relation to his shoulders than Landis'.
Looks like Menchov's legs are quite a bit longer than Landis'.

-S-

Interesting comments - so how to those without access to a wind tunnel
decide which position is best for them (besides the odvious Time Trial
& Error approach)?

"jeremy" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Steve Freides said:

I don't think this is a one-size-fits-all kind of thing - there are
tradeoffs wherein a more aero position simply doesn't let you pedal
or
breath as well and results in an overall deficit in performance. It
looks like Menchov's back is already flatter than Landis', i.e.,
Menchov's hips are higher in relation to his shoulders than Landis'.
Looks like Menchov's legs are quite a bit longer than Landis'.

-S-

Interesting comments -

Thank you but this is nothing new.

Quoted message said:

.so how to those without access to a wind tunnel
decide which position is best for them (besides the odvious Time Trial
& Error approach)?

However they best can. I don't imagine, in this day and age, that any
big-league pro hasn't had their time trial position tested in a wind
tunnel unless their job description (e.g, pure climber, no one cares
about his TT results) doesn't include time trialing.

-S-

In article <[email hidden]>,

Quoted message said:

Ryan Cousineau said:

I believe the core of the problem is that Landis would not be able to
comfortably get out and flat with his arms without moving his saddle
illegally far forward.

dumbass,

his (effective) saddle position IS far forward. there is a rule that
limits how far ahead of the bike the extensions may reach, if he
dropped them vertical, the way most riders have them, they would reach
out too far.

dumbass:

Thanks for the clarification.

--
Ryan Cousineau [email hidden] http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos

In article <[email hidden]>,

Steve Freides said:

"jeremy" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Steve Freides said:

I don't think this is a one-size-fits-all kind of thing - there are
tradeoffs wherein a more aero position simply doesn't let you pedal
or
breath as well and results in an overall deficit in performance. It
looks like Menchov's back is already flatter than Landis', i.e.,
Menchov's hips are higher in relation to his shoulders than Landis'.
Looks like Menchov's legs are quite a bit longer than Landis'.

-S-

Interesting comments -

Thank you but this is nothing new.

Quoted message said:

.so how to those without access to a wind tunnel
decide which position is best for them (besides the odvious Time Trial
& Error approach)?

To a first order, an amateur can get the "right" TT position by taking a
picture and using it to measure (and minimize!) their frontal area, and
then make some educated guesses about the aerodynamics.

Here's a pic showing how this was done for some motorcycles:

http://www.sportrider.com/tech/146_0106_aero/

I know there's an article out there on doing this with a cyclist in TT
position, but I can't find it right now.

For the rest, um, flat back, be like Lance (or Floyd, or Dave), and make
sure your number isn't flapping.

Quoted message said:

However they best can. I don't imagine, in this day and age, that any
big-league pro hasn't had their time trial position tested in a wind
tunnel unless their job description (e.g, pure climber, no one cares
about his TT results) doesn't include time trialing.

The moral of the story: TTing is expensive and stupid for amateurs.
Leave it to the triathletes.

--
Ryan Cousineau [email hidden] http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos

In article
<[email hidden]>,

RicodJour said:

Tom Kunich said:

I designed and built a wind tunnel for small components when I was
working at a company designing flow detectors. So I have a little
experience with airflow and detection. I've seen three photographs now
of the Rabobank guys and unless those photographs were purposely staged
to show the wrong sort of positions, I can't see how those positions
could possibly result in good aero results. The open chest area in
particular has been cited in articles about aero positions as greatly
increasing drag. That's why Landis uses the tilted up bars to close
that area up.

Why would someone need a wind tunnel to tell them that?
"Hmmm. How about this - let's create a big pocket against the broadest
surface to block air flow."
"Good idea!"

What do you conclude from the photographs showing cyclists
in exactly that position? I conclude that they _do_ need a
wind tunnel.

To get into the area of conjecture, they may think that
the pocket is not much of a drag.

--
Michael Press

"Ryan Cousineau" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Steve Freides said:

"jeremy" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Steve Freides wrote:

> I don't think this is a one-size-fits-all kind of thing - there
> are
> tradeoffs wherein a more aero position simply doesn't let you
> pedal
> or
> breath as well and results in an overall deficit in performance.
> It
> looks like Menchov's back is already flatter than Landis', i.e.,
> Menchov's hips are higher in relation to his shoulders than
> Landis'.
> Looks like Menchov's legs are quite a bit longer than Landis'.
>
> -S-

Interesting comments -

Thank you but this is nothing new.

Quoted message said:

.so how to those without access to a wind tunnel
decide which position is best for them (besides the odvious Time
Trial
& Error approach)?

To a first order, an amateur can get the "right" TT position by taking
a
picture and using it to measure (and minimize!) their frontal area,
and
then make some educated guesses about the aerodynamics.

I think this is a bit too much of an oversimplication. Look, e.g., at
this picture of Ullrich from earlier this year:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2006/apr06/romandie06/index.php?id=romandie065/Par734507

He is clearly _not_ going for a small frontal area - he looks a lot like
the Menchov pictures.

What's most aerodynamic for some may be to focus on total frontal area,
but Jan's positioning suggests different thinking. I don't imagine one
of the world's best time trialists, well, you can finish that sentence
for yourself. 🙂

You don't need a Weatherman to know which way the wind blows ...

-S-

Ryan, just try this test. When descending a nice steady hill put your hands
near the center of the bars on both sides and get as low on the bike as you
can. You'll feel the bike plainly accelerate as the wind drag drops.

Next slide forward (carefully - this is none to safe) with your chest on
your hands and your head far forward and you'll feel another acceleration.

You don't NEED a wind tunnel for effects that are this gross to demonstrate
effectiveness.

You can also just watch the highest rated ski jumpers and how they hold
their bodies and arms. Aerodynamics of the human body are on display all
around us.

"Michael Press" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article
<[email hidden]>,

RicodJour said:

Tom Kunich said:

I designed and built a wind tunnel for small components when I was
working at a company designing flow detectors. So I have a little
experience with airflow and detection. I've seen three photographs now
of the Rabobank guys and unless those photographs were purposely staged
to show the wrong sort of positions, I can't see how those positions
could possibly result in good aero results. The open chest area in
particular has been cited in articles about aero positions as greatly
increasing drag. That's why Landis uses the tilted up bars to close
that area up.

Why would someone need a wind tunnel to tell them that?
"Hmmm. How about this - let's create a big pocket against the broadest
surface to block air flow."
"Good idea!"

What do you conclude from the photographs showing cyclists
in exactly that position? I conclude that they _do_ need a
wind tunnel.

To get into the area of conjecture, they may think that
the pocket is not much of a drag.

No, what it might mean is that all the photographs we've seen were of riders
sitting up for turns, ending their wind tunnels tests or that sort of thing.
In other words, the teams didn't want photos of their "working" positions
showing. Why should they spend money for testing and then throw the majority
of it away by showing the competition?

"Steve Freides" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

However they best can. I don't imagine, in this day and age, that any
big-league pro hasn't had their time trial position tested in a wind
tunnel unless their job description (e.g, pure climber, no one cares about
his TT results) doesn't include time trialing.

To tell you the truth, the fine tuning of riders position require a wind
tunnel but all it really takes is for someone that has done tests in the
past to tell you the broad concepts for you to bet 90% of the advantages of
wind tunnel testing. And the small changes are so slight that the rider
sitting up a little too long in a corner cancels them out for the whole TT.

The truth is that LeMond won the final TT and the '89 Tour because he was
stronger that day and not because of the TT bars. Later wind tunnel data
showed that the difference between him and Fignon was the drag of Laurent's
pony tail. That means that Fignon who was slamming the bike all around for
the whole TT lost it himself.

"Tom Kunich" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

No, what it might mean is that all the photographs we've seen were of
riders sitting up for turns, ending their wind tunnels tests or that sort
of thing. In other words, the teams didn't want photos of their "working"
positions showing. Why should they spend money for testing and then throw
the majority of it away by showing the competition?

Since when do teams have control over whether photographs of riders in turns
or in their tucked position are published?

Ronald said:

Quoted message said:

I've seen three photographs now
of the Rabobank guys and unless those photographs were purposely staged
to show the wrong sort of positions, I can't see how those positions
could possibly result in good aero results.

Rasmussen (also Rabobank) uses a position like Landis:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2006/giro06/index.php?id=giro_bikes4/IMG_0469

Yeah, but that's just in an effort to keep on the fricken bike!