Re: Dish the rear? Why not offset the frame? II

"john" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Mike Reed' (a few days ago) said:

Quoted message said:

Has anyone ever made a frame that has the dropouts off center? If you
moved them 9mm to the right, you could use the same spoke lengths with
an Ultegra rear hub (quick and dirty calculations). The rim wouldn't be
centered on the hub, so I guess that getting it centered in the frame
would be slightly tricky, but I'm sure we could all come up with a
simple enough solution.
Is this a reasonable approach?
Just wondering,
Mike

And I wrote:

Didn't Manitou's frame designer (I can't remember his name! Mr. Manitou

:-) do this back in the '80? I've always believed that it's an idea
worth the trouble. I suspect that the crank set chain line wouldn't
have offset quite as much the right rear offset. I.E. Say 4mm < the
rear movement to the right, would probably work ok. Maybe not shift
Shimano perfectly, but close enough. In fact the rear wheel wouldn't
have to be undished so much as to make it symmetrical. Every little bit

helps. Asymmetrical rim, right stays moved out a little, right crank
set moved a little right. Use an 'E' type front derail.

I think the above paragraph answers most if not all the objections to
asymmetrical chain stays. If it would contribute to better wheels, Why
not?

I suspect in a few years when we see Campy & Shimano go to 12spds (on
the r. hub) we'll see this happen :-/

Regards, John

I do wonder if tyres would wear more quickly if they are not tracking. I
saw a bike with vertical dropouts that was set off-centre and the tyres did
look more tired than the mileage would suggest. I suspect handling would be
a little more 'amusing' too: - that was what alerted the owner to the
problem, if I remember correctly.

Skippy
E&OE

Skippy said:

"john" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Mike Reed' (a few days ago) said:

> Has anyone ever made a frame that has the dropouts off center? If you
> moved them 9mm to the right,...

And I wrote:

Didn't Manitou's frame designer (I can't remember his name! Mr. Manitou

:-) do this back in the '80? I've always believed that it's an idea
worth the trouble. I s...

I do wonder if tyres would wear more quickly if they are not tracking.
I saw a bike with vertical dropouts that was set off-centre and the
tyres did look more tired than the mileage would suggest. I suspect
handling would be a little more 'amusing' too: Skippy
E&OE

Okay, I'm not the best visualizer, so perhaps I've got this all wrong,
but the way I see the earlier posts, the tires still line up, it's just
that the rear rim is centered between the flanges and not the locknuts.
Which is okay, because the dropouts are shifted over. I suppose that
with standard frames, if there are slight differences between dropout
spacing and OLD, the stretching or compression of the stays would tend
towards the middle and be self-correcting, whereas on an offset frame,
such slight differences would push the tire a bit to the right. But on
the order of a mm or 2, would it be noticeable?

--
-------
Yoni Mazuz
(there isn't actually [censored] in my e-mail address)

Skippy said:

I do wonder if tyres would wear more quickly if they are not tracking. I
saw a bike with vertical dropouts that was set off-centre and the tyres did
look more tired than the mileage would suggest. I suspect handling would be
a little more 'amusing' too: - that was what alerted the owner to the
problem, if I remember correctly.

I'm not saying that anyone should ride a bicycle w/ misaligned wheels.
That would make for one evil handling bike.

I'm suggesting that the right stays would be spread further from the CL
of the bike which would allow the entire rear hub to be shifted to the
right, which would bring the angle of both sets of spokes closer to an
equal angle. The wheel would be built & dished for this end result.
Done properly the front & rear wheels would track perfectly.

Regards. John

Yonatan Mazuz wrote:

-snip-

Quoted message said:

Okay, I'm not the best visualizer, so perhaps I've got this all wrong,
but the way I see the earlier posts, the tires still line up, it's just
that the rear rim is centered between the flanges and not the locknuts.
Which is okay, because the dropouts are shifted over. I suppose that
with standard frames, if there are slight differences between dropout
spacing and OLD, the stretching or compression of the stays would tend
towards the middle and be self-correcting, whereas on an offset frame,
such slight differences would push the tire a bit to the right. But on
the order of a mm or 2, would it be noticeable?

-snip-

That's a point I had not considered. Would it push it to the right or
left? I still believe that it is something that's workable, but it
would require some research. I wonder, if I'm correct about '80s
Manitou's being built this way, if they had any problems in this
regard?

Also the hub flanges wouldn't have to be centered on the rim CL. Any
movement of the rt. & lft. flanges toward the right is going to help
equalize the rt. & lft. spoke tension, which is the goal. I think that
to move the hub flgs to be centered on the rim CL would result in too
great of chain line misalignment.

I'm thinking of moving just the rt. stays to the right. The increase of
OLD would be taken up w/ additional spacers on the left, which would
necessitate a longer axel.

Any other thoughts about why this might not work, before I try this on
a steel frame, & fall flat on my face, greatly appreciated,

Thanks for your comments, John

In article <[email hidden]>,

Skippy () said:

I do wonder if tyres would wear more quickly if they are not tracking. I
saw a bike with vertical dropouts that was set off-centre and the tyres did
look more tired than the mileage would suggest. I suspect handling would be
a little more 'amusing' too: - that was what alerted the owner to the
problem, if I remember correctly.

I suspect that most bikes with the wheels unintentionally out of line
don't have the wheels parallel with the steering straight ahead, which
might well lead to premature wear in the tyres. Certain of Mr. M.
Burrows' creations /do/ have their wheels arranged asymmetrically and,
judging by the way Mr. A. Setter was going at Darley Moor yesterday,
there appeared to be little wrong with the way his RatRacer was tackling
the corners...

--
Dave Larrington - <http://www.legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uk/>
This Unit is a productive Unit.

Dave Larrington wrote:
Certain of Mr. M.

Quoted message said:

Burrows' creations /do/ have their wheels arranged asymmetrically and,
judging by the way Mr. A. Setter was going at Darley Moor yesterday,
there appeared to be little wrong with the way his RatRacer was tackling
the corners...

It would be more interesting to see how it manages a straight bit of road!
--
---
Marten Gerritsen

INFOapestaartjeM-GINEERINGpuntNL
www.m-gineering.nl

In article <[email hidden]>, M-gineering

() said:

Dave Larrington wrote:
Certain of Mr. M.

Quoted message said:

Burrows' creations /do/ have their wheels arranged asymmetrically and,
judging by the way Mr. A. Setter was going at Darley Moor yesterday,
there appeared to be little wrong with the way his RatRacer was tackling
the corners...

It would be more interesting to see how it manages a straight bit of road!

It seems to do OK at that too. I spent the entire Castle Combe race
back in April in the company of Mr. Setter's RatRacer and Mr. Fleming's
(marginally) more conventional Velokraft NoCom, and the latter seems to
be a tad prone to rock'n'roll in a straight line. Could be his riding
style, I suppose.

--
Dave Larrington - <http://www.legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uk/>
Stop it! You're scarin' the Hippo...