What early 70's Italian frame to buy

Bob said:

I want to build up a 70's Italian bike to fill out my European mix.

Suggestions? Off beat is OK, I'm not particularly bound to prestige
names. Something middle of the road.

I also need some education in Columbus tubing of the era so I know
what I am looking at - if there is a web site or just some info that
you can post that would enlighten me I could use it.

In those years there was not much choice of tubing; so, you won't have
to invest any great effort on that. Wider was the choice of lugwork,
which did certainly make some frame nicer than others.
In the 70-s there were so many good framebuilders, virtually unknown of
nowadays, who left a lot of framesets that nobody wants any more. Such
jewels can easily be spotted and acquired for little money.
Depending on where you are, the cost is essentially that of shipping
over and respraying, if need be.

Sergio
Pisa

Bob,

you want a colnago super, made from columbus SL or SP. The SL was the
lighter gauge, probably only used in frames 56cm and smaller. You
NEED a Columbus bike because these are simply a little bit lighter
than a reynolds bike, and you'd like to know how the ride feel
differs. The Colnago Super is reputed to have a "magic carpet ride"
somewhat like another bicycle maker of the 1970's that is probably out
of your price range (Cinelli Super Corsa.)

Alternately, why not get a modern cinelli from american cyclery? If
you have the $$$, they still have a lot of really cool colors that are
no longer made ...

- Don Gillies
San Diego, CA

Donald Gillies said:

Bob,

you want a colnago super, made from columbus SL or SP. The SL was the
lighter gauge, probably only used in frames 56cm and smaller. You
NEED a Columbus bike

I am not sure that Bob really needs to go that fancy.
Myself, I have about ten bikes, more or less all from the 70s, that I
have been riding ever since on all kinds of terrain, to great
satisfaction, for excellent performance and dependability.
No need to go Colnago, nor CInelli.

Sergio
Pisa

Donald Gillies said:

Bob,

you want a colnago super, made from columbus SL or SP. The SL was the
lighter gauge, probably only used in frames 56cm and smaller. You
NEED a Columbus bike because these are simply a little bit lighter
than a reynolds bike, and you'd like to know how the ride feel
differs. The Colnago Super is reputed to have a "magic carpet ride"
somewhat like another bicycle maker of the 1970's that is probably out
of your price range (Cinelli Super Corsa.)

Alternately, why not get a modern cinelli from american cyclery? If
you have the $$$, they still have a lot of really cool colors that are
no longer made ...

- Don Gillies
San Diego, CA

A Colnago Super would be great, but I have another suggestion: a Masi
Gran Criterium. I have a friend who built a replica of the _Breaking
Away_ bike, and it's just charming. Lots of people recognize it (at
least, people who would distinguish between early-'70s Italian racing
bikes) and it has an accessible history. Who among us is more pure than
Dave Stohler? Technically, it's a mid-to-late '70s frame, but it's
similar in spirit. Of course, you should build/buy what you
like--that's the primary criterion.

FWIW, I don't believe in the "magic carpet ride" for any particular
reasonably-high-quality steel frame from the early '70's. Those bikes
were basically all built to the same spec--the same tube diameters,
marginally different wall thicknesses and nearly-identical joining
methods. Geometry differed only incrementally. /Maybe/ some riders
could tell the difference between SL and SP*, but any "magic carpet"
distinction between such similar vintage frames is, IMHO, vintage
marketing spin. Of course, spin or no, the bikes are beautiful.

Good luck with this project--it sounds both expensive and fun!

Jason

* I believe _Bicycle Guide_ published an article in 1987 or so (back
when they were the _New Yorker_ of bicycle journalism) comparing three
un-decaled frames: one of SL, one of SP and one of Tange Prestige.
IIRC, riders in this blind test were not able to distinguish between
the frames with accuracy better than chance. Does anyone remember
definitively?

Quoted message said:

Donald Gillies said:

Bob,

you want a colnago super, made from columbus SL or SP. The SL was the
lighter gauge, probably only used in frames 56cm and smaller. You
NEED a Columbus bike because these are simply a little bit lighter
than a reynolds bike, and you'd like to know how the ride feel
differs. The Colnago Super is reputed to have a "magic carpet ride"
somewhat like another bicycle maker of the 1970's that is probably out
of your price range (Cinelli Super Corsa.)

Alternately, why not get a modern cinelli from american cyclery? If
you have the $$$, they still have a lot of really cool colors that are
no longer made ...

- Don Gillies
San Diego, CA

A Colnago Super would be great, but I have another suggestion: a Masi
Gran Criterium.

That's what I would choose if I had a choice.

Greg
--
"All my time I spent in heaven
Revelries of dance and wine
Waking to the sound of laughter
Up I'd rise and kiss the sky" - The Mekons

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In article <[email hidden]>,

Bob said:

I want to build up a 70's Italian bike to fill out my European mix. I
have most of the components but I need a frame. Something middle of
the road to go along with my other Euro 70's bikes (A raleigh
competition and a motobecane grand record). I plan to use it for
"racing" but only to the extent that it will not be setup for touring
with racks or fenders. So, a bike to take out when I just want to do
some quick training and get some amusement (I don't actually race).

Suggestions? Off beat is OK, I'm not particularly bound to prestige
names. Something middle of the road.

_ Get a Mirella, nice lug work and distinct head badge. Plus it
has Leri tubing, for that unique factor[1]. Besides if you bid on
it I won't be tempted.

http://tinyurl.com/rjlml

_ Booker C. Bense

[1]- It's not particularly well regarded, Leri was a gas pipe company that
went into bicycle making for a while. However, it makes for a
very nice riding bike.

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Quoted message said:

A Colnago Super would be great, but I have another suggestion: a Masi
Gran Criterium.

This is a good choice in the larger sizes, although prices of both
MASI's and Cinellis now are in the stratosphere, whereas Colnagos are
plentiful and you get to spend the rest of your life looking for the
right pantographed components ... *grin*. I have it on good authority
from an ex-MASI builder that the smaller sized MASI's have a very
harsh ride, and are to be avoided. This MASI builder rides a Colnago,
'nuff said !!

- Don Gillies
San Diego, CA

[email hidden] wrote:

<snipped>

Quoted message said:

* I believe _Bicycle Guide_ published an article in 1987 or so (back
when they were the _New Yorker_ of bicycle journalism) comparing three
un-decaled frames: one of SL, one of SP and one of Tange Prestige.
IIRC, riders in this blind test were not able to distinguish between
the frames with accuracy better than chance. Does anyone remember
definitively?

This is hardly definitive, but I hope it helps:IIRC, BG had several
frames built up by the same builder (I think it was Marinoni, in
Canada). They were identical in all repects save for the tubing, which
ran the gamut from Columbus Aelle (straight gauge, seamed tubing) to
whatever the high-end Columbus tubing of the day was (SLX, maybe?).

As you said, the staff were unable to tell the high zoot stuff from the
"lowly" Aelle.

Quoted message said:

[email hidden] wrote:

Quoted message said:

This is hardly definitive, but I hope it helps:IIRC, BG had several
frames built up by the same builder (I think it was Marinoni, in
Canada). They were identical in all repects save for the tubing, which
ran the gamut from Columbus Aelle (straight gauge, seamed tubing) to
whatever the high-end Columbus tubing of the day was (SLX, maybe?).

All things being equal, I believe you can feel a difference if a bike
is 1 lb lighter. It is difficult to impossible to feel any lesser
difference. The difference between reynolds 531 plain gauge
main-tubes and reynolds 531 db through is not quite 1 pound - it's
something like 10-12 oz.

You can feel a difference between a high-carbon steel frame and a
butted frame. The butting makes more difference than the lightness.
This is the main advantage of reynolds 531 db tubes.

I prefer to buy bikes with 531 db main tubes, 531 forks, and who knows
what is in the rear triangle. These bikes often sell for half the
price of a 531 throughout bike in a liquid used bike market, like
ebay. E.g. Raleigh Gransport/Competition, Peugeot PR-10, motobecane
gran jubilee, etc.

You can probably measure the difference between a columbus db bike and
a reynolds db bike in a 10 mi timetrial, since the columbus frame is
roughly 100 grams lighter, according to charts I've seen. But you
could not know the difference until you clicked your stopwatch.

- Don Gillies
San Diego, CA

I'll third the suggestion of a Masi Grand Criterium. One of the few old
frames I'd go out of my way to fix up. While Colnagos and Cinellis are
easy choices, I've always liked older Poghliagi's a bit more.

If you are not too hung up on the Italian origin, an early Richard
Sachs is a nice piece with a lot of lug and cutout details. I'm also
partial to old Roberts framsets (England) having spent many a mile on
one of thier fixed gear bikes. You already have the Raleigh Competition
but the Team Pro is worth collecting.

Mark

Donald Gillies said:

Quoted message said:

[email hidden] wrote:

Quoted message said:

This is hardly definitive, but I hope it helps:IIRC, BG had several
frames built up by the same builder (I think it was Marinoni, in
Canada). They were identical in all repects save for the tubing, which
ran the gamut from Columbus Aelle (straight gauge, seamed tubing) to
whatever the high-end Columbus tubing of the day was (SLX, maybe?).

All things being equal, I believe you can feel a difference if a bike
is 1 lb lighter. It is difficult to impossible to feel any lesser
difference. The difference between reynolds 531 plain gauge
main-tubes and reynolds 531 db through is not quite 1 pound - it's
something like 10-12 oz.

You can feel a difference between a high-carbon steel frame and a
butted frame. The butting makes more difference than the lightness.
This is the main advantage of reynolds 531 db tubes.

With respect, Don, this is pretty much what the BG guys thought going
in to this blind test. They expected to be able to "feel" the
difference, especially the difference between the hugh-zoot, butted
tubing and the lowly, straight-gauge, seamed Aelle.

A funny thing happened on the way to the test results: they could not
reliably distinguish the high priced stuff from the low end stuff. In
fact, IIRC, in a delicious twist, the Aelle bike was favored by more
testers than any other!

Quoted message said:

I prefer to buy bikes with 531 db main tubes, 531 forks, and who knows
what is in the rear triangle. These bikes often sell for half the
price of a 531 throughout bike in a liquid used bike market, like
ebay. E.g. Raleigh Gransport/Competition, Peugeot PR-10, motobecane
gran jubilee, etc.

Hmm...I have two Moto Gran Jubiles. The forks that came with them
weren't 531, although I'm using a 531 fork, from a Grand Record, on the
Jubile I ride regularly. The 531 fork weighs a tad less and has very
nice Campy fork ends v. the clunky looking, stamped Moto fork ends on
the other forks. I like to think the 531 fork "rides nicer" than the
other forks, but I know there may not be a noticable difference aside
from appearance.

Quoted message said:

You can probably measure the difference between a columbus db bike and
a reynolds db bike in a 10 mi timetrial, since the columbus frame is
roughly 100 grams lighter, according to charts I've seen. But you
could not know the difference until you clicked your stopwatch.

- Don Gillies
San Diego, CA

Quoted message said:

Donald Gillies said:

Quoted message said:

[email hidden] wrote:

All things being equal, I believe you can feel a difference if a bike
is 1 lb lighter. It is difficult to impossible to feel any lesser
difference. The difference between reynolds 531 plain gauge
main-tubes and reynolds 531 db through is not quite 1 pound - it's
something like 10-12 oz.

Quoted message said:

With respect, Don, this is pretty much what the BG guys thought going
in to this blind test. They expected to be able to "feel" the
difference, especially the difference between the hugh-zoot, butted
tubing and the lowly, straight-gauge, seamed Aelle.

In that case I don't believe their testing methods were thorough.

http://www.kvanproductions.com/cycling/Aelle1.htm

Could you please give me a reference, please, for the cycling article
?? An Aelle tube set weighs 420 grams more than current-generation
Nemo tubing, although it might be almost the same as SP or SPX tubing
from the 1980's - just with seams and not as butted. According the
URL / link, Aelle is 0.8 mm tubing today, which is thinner than 0.9 mm
tubing which was the standard "non-butted" thickness in the 1970's and
early 1980's.

I have felt "a difference" riding a 28 lbs bike vs. a 26 lbs bike
(raleigh gran prix vs. sekai 2500, db tange tubing).

If these testers at BG rode the bicycles on smooth roads with no
bumps, then probably they would not feel a difference based on the
double butted tubing.

- Don Gillies
San Diego, CA

On 31 May 2006 18:10:37 -0700, [email hidden] (Donald Gillies)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Donald Gillies said:

[email hidden] writes:

>[email hidden] wrote:

All things being equal, I believe you can feel a difference if a bike
is 1 lb lighter. It is difficult to impossible to feel any lesser
difference. The difference between reynolds 531 plain gauge
main-tubes and reynolds 531 db through is not quite 1 pound - it's
something like 10-12 oz.

Quoted message said:

With respect, Don, this is pretty much what the BG guys thought going
in to this blind test. They expected to be able to "feel" the
difference, especially the difference between the hugh-zoot, butted
tubing and the lowly, straight-gauge, seamed Aelle.

In that case I don't believe their testing methods were thorough.

http://www.kvanproductions.com/cycling/Aelle1.htm

Could you please give me a reference, please, for the cycling article
??

The article is not available online as far as I know -- it's perhaps
10 years old. In it they had a single builder make the frames from 8
or ten different forms of Columbus tubing. Same components on all of
them. Same paint. It was possible to recognize some tubing as being
different than others (for example, EL OS which was larger diameter
than some others). Each frame had a number and they rode them blind,
switching around a lot. IIRC the heavy Aelle and one of the heavy
high-end tubing (SP maybe) and one oversize tubing (EL OS I think)
felt the best, but they said they didn't have much confidence in these
differences.

Dirreences in weight are differences in weight -- you can do the
calculations to see what those are worth. But other differences --
hard to detect. I imagine that there would be differences in handling
-- with the stiffer frames (which includes the Aelle which is stiff
due to having more metal) being better. In terms of vertical stiffness
and comfort even on bad roads -- I can't see how they could have
detected that.

JT

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Donald Gillies said:

Quoted message said:

Donald Gillies said:

[email hidden] writes:

>[email hidden] wrote:

All things being equal, I believe you can feel a difference if a bike
is 1 lb lighter. It is difficult to impossible to feel any lesser
difference. The difference between reynolds 531 plain gauge
main-tubes and reynolds 531 db through is not quite 1 pound - it's
something like 10-12 oz.

Quoted message said:

With respect, Don, this is pretty much what the BG guys thought going
in to this blind test. They expected to be able to "feel" the
difference, especially the difference between the hugh-zoot, butted
tubing and the lowly, straight-gauge, seamed Aelle.

In that case I don't believe their testing methods were thorough.

IIRC, the "testing methods" were rather informal: they rode the bikes
on roads they knew well. Just like someone buying a bike might well do.

Quoted message said:

http://www.kvanproductions.com/cycling/Aelle1.htm

Could you please give me a reference, please, for the cycling article
??

If you Google "blind frame test", you'll get quite a few hits
discussing the test but, AFAIK, the article itself is not available
online.

Quoted message said:

An Aelle tube set weighs 420 grams more than current-generation
Nemo tubing,

That's less than a 15oz difference, might be hard to spot without a
scale.

Quoted message said:

although it might be almost the same as SP or SPX tubing
from the 1980's - just with seams and not as butted. According the
URL / link, Aelle is 0.8 mm tubing today, which is thinner than 0.9 mm
tubing which was the standard "non-butted" thickness in the 1970's and
early 1980's.

I have felt "a difference" riding a 28 lbs bike vs. a 26 lbs bike
(raleigh gran prix vs. sekai 2500, db tange tubing).

But the bikes are not identical in every way save for the 2lb weight
difference, are they? There may be other factors at play. The beauty of
the BG "blind frame test" was the the bikes under test were made as
identical as possible except for the difference in tubing.

Quoted message said:

If these testers at BG rode the bicycles on smooth roads with no
bumps, then probably they would not feel a difference based on the
double butted tubing.

[email hidden] wrote in news:1149092293.317759.256380
@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:

Quoted message said:

A Colnago Super would be great, but I have another suggestion: a Masi
Gran Criterium. I have a friend who built a replica of the _Breaking
Away_ bike, and it's just charming. Lots of people recognize it (at
least, people who would distinguish between early-'70s Italian racing
bikes) and it has an accessible history.

There's a guy at work who rides a red '83 Specialized Allez with Superbe
Pro - the American Flyers bike. I complimented him on it and he had no idea
what I was talking about. He said a guy he knew sold it to him for $75 and
he'd never seen that movie. I told him he got a great deal, and to rent the
movie to see Kevin Costner riding his bike.

John Forrest Tomlinson said:

On 31 May 2006 18:10:37 -0700, [email hidden] (Donald Gillies)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Donald Gillies wrote:
> [email hidden] writes:
>
> >[email hidden] wrote:
>
> All things being equal, I believe you can feel a difference if a bike
> is 1 lb lighter. It is difficult to impossible to feel any lesser
> difference. The difference between reynolds 531 plain gauge
> main-tubes and reynolds 531 db through is not quite 1 pound - it's
> something like 10-12 oz.
>

Quoted message said:

With respect, Don, this is pretty much what the BG guys thought going
in to this blind test. They expected to be able to "feel" the
difference, especially the difference between the high-zoot, butted
tubing and the lowly, straight-gauge, seamed Aelle.

In that case I don't believe their testing methods were thorough.

http://www.kvanproductions.com/cycling/Aelle1.htm

Could you please give me a reference, please, for the cycling article
??

The article is not available online as far as I know -- it's perhaps
10 years old. In it they had a single builder make the frames from 8
or ten different forms of Columbus tubing. Same components on all of
them. Same paint. It was possible to recognize some tubing as being
different than others (for example, EL OS which was larger diameter
than some others). Each frame had a number and they rode them blind,
switching around a lot. IIRC the heavy Aelle and one of the heavy
high-end tubing (SP maybe) and one oversize tubing (EL OS I think)
felt the best, but they said they didn't have much confidence in these
differences.

Dirreences in weight are differences in weight -- you can do the
calculations to see what those are worth. But other differences --
hard to detect. I imagine that there would be differences in handling
-- with the stiffer frames (which includes the Aelle which is stiff
due to having more metal) being better. In terms of vertical stiffness
and comfort even on bad roads -- I can't see how they could have
detected that.

Especially as all the test bikes used the same wheels, tires and
inflation pressures.

John Forrest Tomlinson said:

On 31 May 2006 18:10:37 -0700, [email hidden] (Donald Gillies)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Donald Gillies wrote:
> [email hidden] writes:
>
> >[email hidden] wrote:
>
> All things being equal, I believe you can feel a difference if a bike
> is 1 lb lighter. It is difficult to impossible to feel any lesser
> difference. The difference between reynolds 531 plain gauge
> main-tubes and reynolds 531 db through is not quite 1 pound - it's
> something like 10-12 oz.
>

Quoted message said:

With respect, Don, this is pretty much what the BG guys thought going
in to this blind test. They expected to be able to "feel" the
difference, especially the difference between the hugh-zoot, butted
tubing and the lowly, straight-gauge, seamed Aelle.

In that case I don't believe their testing methods were thorough.

http://www.kvanproductions.com/cycling/Aelle1.htm

Could you please give me a reference, please, for the cycling article
??

The article is not available online as far as I know -- it's perhaps
10 years old. In it they had a single builder make the frames from 8
or ten different forms of Columbus tubing. Same components on all of
them. Same paint. It was possible to recognize some tubing as being
different than others (for example, EL OS which was larger diameter
than some others). Each frame had a number and they rode them blind,
switching around a lot. IIRC the heavy Aelle and one of the heavy
high-end tubing (SP maybe) and one oversize tubing (EL OS I think)
felt the best, but they said they didn't have much confidence in these
differences.

Dirreences in weight are differences in weight -- you can do the
calculations to see what those are worth. But other differences --
hard to detect. I imagine that there would be differences in handling
-- with the stiffer frames (which includes the Aelle which is stiff
due to having more metal) being better. In terms of vertical stiffness
and comfort even on bad roads -- I can't see how they could have
detected that.

JT

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Remove "remove" to reply
Visit http://www.jt10000.com
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John, you're right that the article is old, but it's actually about
twice as old as you say. It's about twenty years old...I'm pretty sure
it was published in either 1987 or 1988. EL OS didn't exist back then.
But of course the spirit of your post is dead-on.

Thanks, Ozark, for reminding me that Marinoni built the frames. I seem
to recall that the frames were painted pale blue and pale pink (if that
doesn't prove it was the '80s, nothing will). As a 14-year-old, I
thought this was highly unscientific, as I was predisposed to dislike
pink bikes.

Don, you may think you feel a difference, but I would bet the house
that frame sizing (and therefore tube lengths) has a much more profound
effect on "feel" and deflection under pedaling loads than tubing wall
thickness.

As I'm sure you remember, the Tesch OTTL (Oversized Top Tube, Lugless)
and the Schwinn Paramount OS were both a bit shocking because they used
non-standard tubing diameters. People claimed to feel extraordinary
differences between, say the Paramount OS and the standard Paramount.
Today, there is a much larger range of frame stiffnesses and designs
than there was 20 years ago. Yet the differences between frames are not
much more perceptible than they were 20 years ago. For example, my
racing bike is a 1997 Litespeed Classic (a titanium bike) while my
fixed-gear bike is a 3Rensho (steel, standard tube diameters and
imported by Mr. Muzi, coincidentally). They're set up so they both fit
me the same way. And while I can tell _some_ difference between the two
in terms of handling and sprinting, any apparent difference vanishes
after a mile or two. Blindfolded, I'm not sure I could tell them apart.
So when people tell me they can "feel" the difference between, say, a
Cinelli Super Corsa and a De Rosa of the same era, I become a bit
skeptical. Human beings are notoriously unreliable as data recorders.

That said, if a bike feels like magic to you, it IS magic. But remember
that it's magic to /you/. Trying to demonstrate its magic objectively
is like the oft-attempted ontological proof of god's existence: the
results are unsatisfying. But that doesn't mean the ride of the bike
isn't special to you.

Cheers,

Jason

Mark said:

I'll third the suggestion of a Masi Grand Criterium. One of the few old
frames I'd go out of my way to fix up. While Colnagos and Cinellis are
easy choices, I've always liked older Poghliagi's a bit more.

I always loved the Masi, too -- I couldn't afford one in the '70s, so I
had a local frame builder copy the look (spoon seatstay ends).

Quoted message said:

If you are not too hung up on the Italian origin, an early Richard
Sachs is a nice piece with a lot of lug and cutout details. I'm also
partial to old Roberts framsets (England) having spent many a mile on
one of thier fixed gear bikes. You already have the Raleigh Competition
but the Team Pro is worth collecting.

I always thought that Ron Cooper frames were overlooked. -- Jay
Beattie.

Don, I have to disagree here - I have a 53 cm Masi GC, 1980, wheel
base about 97 cm, probably a Rancho build, and it's ride is very very
nice for a tight-clearance tight-angle frame. NOT a "very harsh"
ride.

For the OP, I would think the main issue is that my bike and its
siblings are not European, despite the Italian heritage.

Ken Freeman

"Donald Gillies" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

[email hidden] writes:

I have it on good authority

Quoted message said:

from an ex-MASI builder that the smaller sized MASI's have a very
harsh ride, and are to be avoided. This MASI builder rides a
Colnago,
'nuff said !!

- Don Gillies
San Diego, CA