correct right turning procedure

In aus.bicycle on Tue, 23 May 2006 07:53:05 GMT

Michele Woods said:

I was under the impression that you stay to the left lane and ride straight
through the lights and then line up with the cars on your left to ride
straight through. Is this not correct? (and if it is, how many of us
commuters/cyclists actually do this since it's a little time consuming?)

YOu are allowed to do that. Doesn't mean you have to.

I tend to stay in the middle or to the left of the left most turning
lane and use that to turn if it is a roundabout (not much choice
there!) or I have a turn arrow.

If I don't have a turn arrow and the intersection's busy then I'll do
a hook turn. Depends on traffic density and cars turning the way I am
and amount of hill and time of day and all sorts of stuff.

Zebee

Michele Woods said:

I just wanted a little clarification about right hand turns. I've seen a
number of cyclists in the last week all approaching a right hand turn at an
intersection (with traffic lights) in different ways.

What is the correct procedure to turn right (at the lights) on a multilane
intersection? (Two lanes straight ahead, two lanes turning right) What is
the safest way? what is the most practical way?

It depends on the traffic and the shape of the intersection. If
there's reasonable traffic density, and no turn lane, I usually do a
hook turn. an extra minute out of my life, I'll cope. Being run into,
I'd prefer to avoid.

If there's a turn lane, I usually use it rather than hook turn.

Michele Woods said:

I just wanted a little clarification about right hand turns. I've seen a
number of cyclists in the last week all approaching a right hand turn at an
intersection (with traffic lights) in different ways.

What is the correct procedure to turn right (at the lights) on a multilane
intersection? (Two lanes straight ahead, two lanes turning right) What is
the safest way? what is the most practical way?

I was under the impression that you stay to the left lane and ride straight
through the lights and then line up with the cars on your left to ride
straight through. Is this not correct? (and if it is, how many of us
commuters/cyclists actually do this since it's a little time consuming?)

I saw one cyclist take a right from the right hand turn lane on the inside
(nearest the island) and then move over to the left lane once on the side
road. I saw another cyclist in the left lane of the right hand turn lanes
(where there were two lanes of traffic turning right) so he was sitting
almost in the middle of the road (looked kind of dangerous to me). Actually,
these guys were both sitting at the same intersection at the time when I saw
them, but I don't think they were travelling together. I wonder if they were
as confused about the correct procedure as me after I saw them.

Opinions/thoughts/comments welcomed!

Michele

You can legally do a "hook turn" from the left lane as you suggested.
However, in the situation you have described I would always turn right
from the left-most of the two right turn lanes. I'd join the queue of
traffic and hold my position in the centre of the lane until around the
corner and in a location where it is safe enough for the cars behind to
pass.

Peter
--
Peter McCallum
Mackay Qld AUSTRALIA

Zebee Johnstone said:

In aus.bicycle on Tue, 23 May 2006 07:53:05 GMT

Michele Woods said:

I was under the impression that you stay to the left lane and ride straight
through the lights and then line up with the cars on your left to ride
straight through. Is this not correct? (and if it is, how many of us
commuters/cyclists actually do this since it's a little time consuming?)

YOu are allowed to do that. Doesn't mean you have to.

I tend to stay in the middle or to the left of the left most turning
lane and use that to turn if it is a roundabout (not much choice
there!) or I have a turn arrow.

If I don't have a turn arrow and the intersection's busy then I'll do
a hook turn. Depends on traffic density and cars turning the way I am
and amount of hill and time of day and all sorts of stuff.

Zebee

I usually do a hook turn as described from Burwood into Aubaun in
Hawthorn. TOnight I had the motorcycle and didnt. The turn took 15
mins. ARGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH Hook turns are not slow

Dave

The "hook" or "box" turn you mention first is legal in NSW and probably
everywhere, if no sign saying you can't, but not mandatory. If doing one of
these you are supposed to pull over to the left and wait for the lights to
change on the left of the cars
on the crossroute, not in front, unless there is a special box marked for
cyclists. Also you shouldnt block any pedestrian crossing or left turning
vehicles. See rule 35 in the Road Rules
www.rta.nsw.gov.au/rulesregulations/downloads/p4.pdf. From the diagram
there it seems you are supposed to wait more or less pointing in the same
direction as the road you were turning from, so you don't poke your front
wheel out into the traffic until the lights change (and you wait for the
usual light runners).

If doing the vehicular cycling thing you are entitled to use any lane on a
multi-lane road so I guess you can choose which ever lane you like to turn
from. Would depend on which lane you wanted to be in around the corner, how
much traffic, speeds, etc. Once you manage to weave across into one of the
right turn lanes you should probably "take the lane", ie ride out far enough
from the left of the lane to discourage cars from passing you in the same
lane, and also to be away from through traffic.

fb

"Michele Woods" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I just wanted a little clarification about right hand turns. I've seen a
number of cyclists in the last week all approaching a right hand turn at an
intersection (with traffic lights) in different ways.

What is the correct procedure to turn right (at the lights) on a multilane
intersection? (Two lanes straight ahead, two lanes turning right) What is
the safest way? what is the most practical way?

I was under the impression that you stay to the left lane and ride
straight through the lights and then line up with the cars on your left to
ride straight through. Is this not correct? (and if it is, how many of us
commuters/cyclists actually do this since it's a little time consuming?)

I saw one cyclist take a right from the right hand turn lane on the inside
(nearest the island) and then move over to the left lane once on the side
road. I saw another cyclist in the left lane of the right hand turn lanes
(where there were two lanes of traffic turning right) so he was sitting
almost in the middle of the road (looked kind of dangerous to me).
Actually, these guys were both sitting at the same intersection at the
time when I saw them, but I don't think they were travelling together. I
wonder if they were as confused about the correct procedure as me after I
saw them.

Opinions/thoughts/comments welcomed!

Michele

It's the same old story, law was changed {don't ask me the act number}
gives bicycles the right to turn "right" from the left lane. But when the
car runs over you from the centre lane your legs still broken.
Take responsibility for you own safety. take the turn in the way that is
safest in the conditions at the time and the cars around you.
What's to stop you using the pedestrian crossing buttons to get you traffic
break?

MJ
Roadie in sydney

"Peter McCallum" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Michele Woods said:

I just wanted a little clarification about right hand turns. I've seen a
number of cyclists in the last week all approaching a right hand turn at
an
intersection (with traffic lights) in different ways.

What is the correct procedure to turn right (at the lights) on a
multilane
intersection? (Two lanes straight ahead, two lanes turning right) What is
the safest way? what is the most practical way?

I was under the impression that you stay to the left lane and ride
straight
through the lights and then line up with the cars on your left to ride
straight through. Is this not correct? (and if it is, how many of us
commuters/cyclists actually do this since it's a little time consuming?)

I saw one cyclist take a right from the right hand turn lane on the
inside
(nearest the island) and then move over to the left lane once on the side
road. I saw another cyclist in the left lane of the right hand turn lanes
(where there were two lanes of traffic turning right) so he was sitting
almost in the middle of the road (looked kind of dangerous to me).
Actually,
these guys were both sitting at the same intersection at the time when I
saw
them, but I don't think they were travelling together. I wonder if they
were
as confused about the correct procedure as me after I saw them.

Opinions/thoughts/comments welcomed!

Michele

You can legally do a "hook turn" from the left lane as you suggested.
However, in the situation you have described I would always turn right
from the left-most of the two right turn lanes. I'd join the queue of
traffic and hold my position in the centre of the lane until around the
corner and in a location where it is safe enough for the cars behind to
pass.

Peter
--
Peter McCallum
Mackay Qld AUSTRALIA

Michele Woods said:

I just wanted a little clarification about right hand turns. I've seen a
number of cyclists in the last week all approaching a right hand turn at an
intersection (with traffic lights) in different ways.

What is the correct procedure to turn right (at the lights) on a multilane
intersection? (Two lanes straight ahead, two lanes turning right) What is
the safest way? what is the most practical way?

I was under the impression that you stay to the left lane and ride straight
through the lights and then line up with the cars on your left to ride
straight through. Is this not correct? (and if it is, how many of us
commuters/cyclists actually do this since it's a little time consuming?)

I saw one cyclist take a right from the right hand turn lane on the inside
(nearest the island) and then move over to the left lane once on the side
road. I saw another cyclist in the left lane of the right hand turn lanes
(where there were two lanes of traffic turning right) so he was sitting
almost in the middle of the road (looked kind of dangerous to me). Actually,
these guys were both sitting at the same intersection at the time when I saw
them, but I don't think they were travelling together. I wonder if they were
as confused about the correct procedure as me after I saw them.

Opinions/thoughts/comments welcomed!

Michele

Some common sense required here. Given that hook turns and right lane
turns are both legal, the primary determinant is the volume of traffic.
If traffic is very heavy, the hook turn is indisputably safer than
trying to cut across two or more lanes of moving traffic.

The `foot on the traffic island' is not just dangerous, it's suicide.
When the arrow goes, the cyclist dumb enough to adopt this position will
be attempting to wobble across at low speeds from the extreme right to
the left side of the turn lane (the turn lanes are often badly defined
as well), and will inevitably be over-run by following traffic.

If you're going to turn right from the right turn lane, the safest
position is on the LEFT side of the right turn lane, preferably forward
of the stop line and/or pedestrian crossing. This way, you're ahead of
the following traffic to start with, you're in the right position for
the turn, and the turkeys behind you have no excuse for saying, `Oh, I
didn't see you'.

I also recommend you try a rear vision mirror, this way you can assess
without taking your eyes off the road ahead the state of the traffic
coming up behind you and thus which is the safest turn procedure to
adopt. They take a bit of getting used to, but it's worth it. I've had
accidents, but NONE of them have been following vehicle collisions.
Safe cycling,
Ray

"Michele Woods" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I just wanted a little clarification about right hand turns. I've seen a
number of cyclists in the last week all approaching a right hand turn at

an

Quoted message said:

intersection (with traffic lights) in different ways.

What is the correct procedure to turn right (at the lights) on a multilane
intersection? (Two lanes straight ahead, two lanes turning right) What is
the safest way? what is the most practical way?

I was under the impression that you stay to the left lane and ride

straight

Quoted message said:

through the lights and then line up with the cars on your left to ride
straight through. Is this not correct? (and if it is, how many of us
commuters/cyclists actually do this since it's a little time consuming?)

I saw one cyclist take a right from the right hand turn lane on the inside
(nearest the island) and then move over to the left lane once on the side
road. I saw another cyclist in the left lane of the right hand turn lanes
(where there were two lanes of traffic turning right) so he was sitting
almost in the middle of the road (looked kind of dangerous to me).

Actually,

Quoted message said:

these guys were both sitting at the same intersection at the time when I

saw

Quoted message said:

them, but I don't think they were travelling together. I wonder if they

were

Quoted message said:

as confused about the correct procedure as me after I saw them.

Opinions/thoughts/comments welcomed!

Michele

Cut to the right-most lane, bunny hop the traffic island, and duck through a
gap in the oncoming traffic. Weave through stationary cars in the lanes
coming towards the intersection in the road that you are turning into and
then bunny hop the traffic island and voila......you are on your way......

But seriously, I usually claim the entire left-most turning lane and then
move left once the corner is complete. I only ever do hook turns in the
Melb CBD when the intersection requires it or when I want to turn right but
the intersection is a "no right turn" one.

If the lights are red I have seen quite a few guys move up on the right hand
side of the turning lanes and then turn hard right and cross the pedestrian
crossing. They then press the button and once the traffic stops ride across
the pedestrian crossing of the second road and depart to the right to carry
on in the required direction. This always irks me a bit as I work on the
reasoning that if I want to be treated like a car then I have to follow the
road rules and not decide to ignore them when it suits me.

Gags

On 2006-05-23, Peter McCallum (aka Bruce)
was almost, but not quite, entirely unlike tea:

Quoted message said:

Michele Woods said:

I saw one cyclist take a right from the right hand turn lane on the inside
(nearest the island) and then move over to the left lane once on the side
road. I saw another cyclist in the left lane of the right hand turn lanes
(where there were two lanes of traffic turning right) so he was sitting
almost in the middle of the road (looked kind of dangerous to me). Actually,
these guys were both sitting at the same intersection at the time when I saw
them, but I don't think they were travelling together. I wonder if they were
as confused about the correct procedure as me after I saw them.

What's unsafe about stopping in the "middle of the road"? Everyone
else is stopped too. Except for the straight ahead goers, but they're
to your left. It's kinda really silly to be in the right hand of two
turn lanes though, if you are going to cut off into the left lane soon
up the road. But perhaps they were going to turn right again soon up,
and needed to be in the right hand of the right hand turn lanes, later
on.

Quoted message said:

You can legally do a "hook turn" from the left lane as you suggested.
However, in the situation you have described I would always turn right
from the left-most of the two right turn lanes. I'd join the queue of
traffic and hold my position in the centre of the lane until around the
corner and in a location where it is safe enough for the cars behind to
pass.

Mind you, if you know the traffic light sequence of the intersection
in question, then sometimes it is a win to do a hook turn even if
there is a turning lane. If it has a red arrow that is only going to
turn green after the next cycle, then do a hookie. You might be lucky
to time it right and be allowed to go almost immediately.

--
TimC

Quoted message said:

Land of the free?

Land of the fee, the US ...
-- Carl Brewer on aus.bicycle

'Usually' do a hookturn, especially in an intersection of the size you describe)

It's not just the turning part to consider but how easy/safe is it to get to or sit waiting in your chosen place?
ie getting across 2 lanes to go and sit in a turn lane can be tricky, whereas going and sitting in a 'dead' spot to do a hookturn can be easy

of course it all (turning from turning lane) gets ballsed up if there are tramtracks!

Gags said:

But seriously, I usually claim the entire left-most turning lane and then
move left once the corner is complete.

I do the same but it depends on the intersection. Sometimes a hook-turn
would be safer. Importantly though, when turning from the left-most
turning lane, I ensure I'm right in the middle of the lane and very
visible. This way I tend to be considered part of traffic by other road
users and not hidden beside any vehicle. This is very important if the
left-most turning lane is also a straight ahead lane. Occupy the lane
if you don't want to get squished! Mind you, I've occasionally sat
myself right in the middle of a lane only to have some dork pull up
BESIDE me so that his wheels are in both my lane and the next one over!

Most important point is to be seen, whatever choice you make.

--
Bean

Remove "yourfinger" before replying

Just to add my 2-cents...

I sit in the left-most of the two turning lanes. Unless the lanes are
exceptionally wide (or if there is a big shoulder in the road I'm
trning into), I claim that lane. Its safe, because everyone else behind
me is stopped anyway.......

Seems pretty straightforward to me...

Cheers & good luck,
Abby

TimC said:

Mind you, if you know the traffic light sequence of the intersection
in question, then sometimes it is a win to do a hook turn even if
there is a turning lane. If it has a red arrow that is only going to
turn green after the next cycle, then do a hookie. You might be lucky
to time it right and be allowed to go almost immediately.

Turning right onto Miller St coming down the Pacific Highway very early in
the morning is like this. The right turn arrow goes before the straight
ahead, but it doesn't reliably pick up bikes. There's almost always a bus
or car coming down Miller. So you go straight, then do a little loop to
end up waiting at those lights. Basically a hook turn, but the LH side of
the road is pushed a little up to get you clear of any possible pedestrian
traffic, and to make it easier to turn around without putting a foot down.

I did say *very* early.

--
Dave Hughes | [email hidden]
"Did you know God had a plan for you?"
"Does it involve a high-powered rifle and a belltower?"

Like most people I take the pragmatic approach.

If I can whip straight around I'll do it from the centre of any road, but the coast has to be clear ahead and behind.

Where there is the protection of a dedicated lane I'll use that (centre of left most lane). particularly if i know the sequence and know when the green arrow will come.

The hook turn has security on it's side as you don't have to spend time stationary in the middle of potentially fast moving traffic, and you aren't out there at the end of the sequence and someone decides to run the red.
It can often be quicker as you usually only have to wait for the lights to change once.

In some situations heavy traffic or on the lefthand side of a bunch it's safer to exit left.

RoryW

"Bleve" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

If there's a turn lane, I usually use it rather than hook turn.

If I've missed the green arrow in the turn lane I will go straight on the
green and do a hook turn rather than wait another whole traffic signal cycle
until the next green arrow.
So you can take your pick as to what is fastest...

"TimC" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On 2006-05-23, Peter McCallum (aka Bruce)
was almost, but not quite, entirely unlike tea:

Quoted message said:

Michele Woods said:

I saw one cyclist take a right from the right hand turn lane on the
inside
(nearest the island) and then move over to the left lane once on the
side
road. I saw another cyclist in the left lane of the right hand turn
lanes
(where there were two lanes of traffic turning right) so he was sitting
almost in the middle of the road (looked kind of dangerous to me).
Actually,
these guys were both sitting at the same intersection at the time when I
saw
them, but I don't think they were travelling together. I wonder if they
were
as confused about the correct procedure as me after I saw them.

What's unsafe about stopping in the "middle of the road"? Everyone
else is stopped too. Except for the straight ahead goers, but they're
to your left. It's kinda really silly to be in the right hand of two
turn lanes though, if you are going to cut off into the left lane soon
up the road. But perhaps they were going to turn right again soon up,
and needed to be in the right hand of the right hand turn lanes, later
on.

Quoted message said:

You can legally do a "hook turn" from the left lane as you suggested.
However, in the situation you have described I would always turn right
from the left-most of the two right turn lanes. I'd join the queue of
traffic and hold my position in the centre of the lane until around the
corner and in a location where it is safe enough for the cars behind to
pass.

Mind you, if you know the traffic light sequence of the intersection
in question, then sometimes it is a win to do a hook turn even if
there is a turning lane. If it has a red arrow that is only going to
turn green after the next cycle, then do a hookie. You might be lucky
to time it right and be allowed to go almost immediately.

--
TimC

Quoted message said:

Land of the free?

Land of the fee, the US ...
-- Carl Brewer on aus.bicycle

The intersection where he was sitting is a 80km/h zone and he was sitting on
the left most left of the lane so he was basically almost in the right
straight ahead lane. Besides which, this being ACT cars here tend to speed
alot so you get cars doing about 90-100km/h along there. I just know I
wouldn't want to be sitting so unprotected so closely to such fast moving
traffic just in case there is some total idiot who's on his/her mobile or
turning the heating on or something, anything that just makes them unaware
that there is a small tiny cyclist sitting stationary. 1/2 metre to the
right and the driver (the hypothetical one I'm worried about) could have
cleaned the out cyclist. I just though the guy near the island was sitting
smarter. Inattentive drivers still don't (usually) tend to drive up gutters.

Wow that was long!

I appreciate the feedback on this. I've just being trying to map out a route
to work that is safe, and working out how to take each of the different
intersections.

Michele Woods said:

The intersection where he was sitting is a 80km/h zone and he was sitting
on the left most left of the lane so he was basically almost in the right
straight ahead lane. Besides which, this being ACT cars here tend to speed
alot so you get cars doing about 90-100km/h along there. I just know I
wouldn't want to be sitting so unprotected so closely to such fast moving
traffic just in case there is some total idiot who's on his/her mobile or
turning the heating on or something, anything that just makes them unaware
that there is a small tiny cyclist sitting stationary. 1/2 metre to the
right and the driver (the hypothetical one I'm worried about) could have
cleaned the out cyclist.

Making a right turn at an intersection with a turn lane I would always stop
at red lights in the left side of the lane, but in front of the LH wheel of
the first car. If there's two turn lanes it'll be in front of the left-most
car. This puts me well out of the through traffic, shielded by cars behind
me and ready to move off quickly at the light change. All good things. The
other option of course, if I have trouble merging across, or the traffic is
too heavy, is to do a hook turn (legal for bikes at alll intersections in
Victoria). Go straight into the intersection and loop around in front of the
stopped cross traffic, ready to move off when the lights on the cross street
go green.

Quoted message said:

I just though the guy near the island was sitting smarter. Inattentive
drivers still don't (usually) tend to drive up gutters.

Personally I think this is a suicidal position, especially if there are two
RH turn lanes. While doing your turn you somehow have to merge back across
*two* lanes of accelerating traffic. Why put yourself in such a risky
position? Turning in the LH lane also means you can move out into a dead
area in the intersection, clear of the traffic flow, then smoothly move into
the left most traffic lane on your new road. Much less aggro in the
manoeuvre.

--
Cheers
Peter

~~~ ~ _@
~~ ~ _- \,
~~ (*)/ (*)

quote='Peter Signorini''Michele Woods said:

I just though the guy near the island was sitting smarter. Inattentive
drivers still don't (usually) tend to drive up gutters.

Personally I think this is a suicidal position, especially if there are two
RH turn lanes. While doing your turn you somehow have to merge back across
*two* lanes of accelerating traffic. Why put yourself in such a risky
position? Turning in the LH lane also means you can move out into a dead
area in the intersection, clear of the traffic flow, then smoothly move into
the left most traffic lane on your new road. Much less aggro in the
manoeuvre.
[/QUOTE]

This is one of my few always, taking the leftmost RH lane. I tend to just sit in the traffic with my position determined by where the exhaust pipe ahead isn't.
If this puts me leftwards I make more of a point of signalling right.
Where the right turn has its own left curb I am much more likely to move up on the left.

Quoted message said:

This is one of my few always, taking the leftmost RH lane. I tend to
just sit in the traffic with my position determined by where the
exhaust pipe ahead isn't.
If this puts me leftwards I make more of a point of signalling right.
Where the right turn has its own left curb I am much more likely to
move up on the left.

--
aeek

That pretty much sums up my practice. About the only time I don't take the
turn lane is when it would involve getting across several lanes of heavy
traffic. One such that I used to do on a regular basis was turning right off
Princes Hwy(going east) onto Warrigal Rd (going south). That often just
wasn't even remotely safe. Mind you, if there was a gap in the traffic I
grabbed it.