Discovery in disarray.... ?

limerickman said:

Yeah, I got some information on this.

Lotto offered Hoste a bagful of money to re-join Lotto after the RVV and P-R result earlier in the year.

Despite all of the criticism he coped from within DC, Hoste's went to DC giving them a chance to match the offer. DC weren't prepared to pay so Hoste decided to renew with Lotto.

Good move for Hoste, i think.

Yes, he used his year at Disco to audition for more pay.
He also used his team and teammates badly in tou of flanders.
Disco should give up on recruiting Belgian riders since they never work out riding for the team, Boonen e.g.
I think Hoste id a good rider and all but good riddance.

bobke said:

Yes, he used his year at Disco to audition for more pay.
He also used his team and teammates badly in tou of flanders.
Disco should give up on recruiting Belgian riders since they never work out riding for the team, Boonen e.g.
I think Hoste id a good rider and all but good riddance.

So now its clear that Hoste was riding for himself in Flanders and P-R. Poor old Hincapie - even though he wouldnt have won Flanders, whatever chance he did have was screwed up by his own team mate, Hoste, trying to get on television.

Interesting that you say that Hoste was riding for himself at P-R and RVV.

In the recent addition of Procycling (the front cover has Ivan Basso in DaVinci's virtual man pose), there is a photo of Leif Hoste walking up the Koppenberg with his bike (if your recall there was a major debate about how Boonen blew away Hincapie/DC and the rest of the field at the Koppenberg).

For Hoste to walk up the koppenberg and to be still able to challenge at RVV indicates a great rider to me.
Whatever about Hoste's willingness to stay at DC, I think DC should try to retain him because he's a great one day rider.
He's better than Hincapie at this point.

limerickman said:

Yeah, I got some information on this.

Did you happen to get your "information" from the DC website?

http://www.thepaceline.com/members/staff_report_item.aspx?cid=2321

http://www.sportwereld.be/Article/Detail.aspx?ArticleID=G6DSIA38

De transfer wordt normaal officieel afgerond tijdens de Ronde van België, die woensdag begint in Oostende.

I really don't think that needs translating.

limerickman said:

For Hoste to walk up the koppenberg and to be still able to challenge at RVV indicates a great rider to me.
Whatever about Hoste's willingness to stay at DC, I think DC should try to retain him because he's a great one day rider.
He's better than Hincapie at this point.

As a huge Hincapie fan, I must agree that they are at least equal. We do not know how good H was at Flanders this year because he had not gotten to the point at which he was planning to attack. As for Roubaix...

Nonetheless, second at both Flanders and Roubaix in the same season is just awesome. Clearly a major talent. (BTW, what is up with Devolder, flash in the pan, injury, just a bad year, what?)

Unless Disco wants to pour out the dollars to focus on a local market, they will always lose the best riders to the two teams for which it is of primary importance to win the spring classics, even if those teams have smaller budgets overall. Just the way it is.

limerickman said:

Interesting that you say that Hoste was riding for himself at P-R and RVV.

In the recent addition of Procycling (the front cover has Ivan Basso in DaVinci's virtual man pose), there is a photo of Leif Hoste walking up the Koppenberg with his bike (if your recall there was a major debate about how Boonen blew away Hincapie/DC and the rest of the field at the Koppenberg).

For Hoste to walk up the koppenberg and to be still able to challenge at RVV indicates a great rider to me.
Whatever about Hoste's willingness to stay at DC, I think DC should try to retain him because he's a great one day rider.
He's better than Hincapie at this point.

Yes but because he's a strong rider, doesn't mean he was in a team spirit frame of mind. Ive never been a bike racer so you have one over on me there. But I think in any sports involving teams, theres one appointed leader, and you either support him/ take his advice or just don't bother turning up. The way I saw it Hoste took matters into his own hands.

Its a bit of a grey area in cycling, because Stephen Roche, one of my childhood heroes, did the same once upon a time in the Giro ('97?), and went against his team leader (who he felt was weaker than him ) and most of the team. Difference is he went on and won the damn thing. So in the end he proved right to a certain extent. But Hoste was never going to win against Boonen.

JRMDC said:

As a huge Hincapie fan, I must agree that they are at least equal. We do not know how good H was at Flanders this year because he had not gotten to the point at which he was planning to attack. As for Roubaix...

Nonetheless, second at both Flanders and Roubaix in the same season is just awesome. Clearly a major talent. (BTW, what is up with Devolder, flash in the pan, injury, just a bad year, what?)

Unless Disco wants to pour out the dollars to focus on a local market, they will always lose the best riders to the two teams for which it is of primary importance to win the spring classics, even if those teams have smaller budgets overall. Just the way it is.

I wasn't having a go at GH when I referred to LH as being the better one day classic rider at DC now.

Hincapie's a fine rider but I get the impression that he's started to lose his edge just slightly and he will be a year older when RVV and P-R come round again.

Like Wicklow says, it could very well be the case that LH is just not compatible to the DC regime.
But given that GH's power appears to be weakening slightly, I would have thought that DC might have tired to retain LH with a view to success in the classics.

However, Boonen was unbeatable this season.

I think Hoste will do well at Davitamon, he would never have been the sole leader at Disco with GH around. If he is going to Davitamon then what is happening with PVP?

Eldrack said:

I think Hoste will do well at Davitamon, he would never have been the sole leader at Disco with GH around. If he is going to Davitamon then what is happening with PVP?

Good question.

PVP was getting some stick from the Belgians for finishing only 4th and 3rd at P-R and RVV in recent years.
(Belgian expectation is always high for the own riders in the classics).

VanPetegem in his more recent interviews said that he felt fine at Lotto and was happy to remain. I wonder was he trying some pre-emptive publicity?

I didn't think you were having a go at him. I've got no problem with your view, though I presonally can't help but take a more favorable view of Hincapie. And yes, his clock is ticking... but 3rd at Flanders is hardly an indication of "losing his edge." And I would want to keep LH around also, one always wants strong riders.

My last point, one of economics (can't help it, professional bias 🙂 ), is simply that Davitamon and QS are always going to pay top Euro for classics riders. Frankly, whatever DS were willing to spend, I would think Davitamon would have to outbid them. PVP is on the tail end of his career.

limerickman said:

I wasn't having a go at GH when I referred to LH as being the better one day classic rider at DC now.

Hincapie's a fine rider but I get the impression that he's started to lose his edge just slightly and he will be a year older when RVV and P-R come round again.

Like Wicklow says, it could very well be the case that LH is just not compatible to the DC regime.
But given that GH's power appears to be weakening slightly, I would have thought that DC might have tired to retain LH with a view to success in the classics.

However, Boonen was unbeatable this season.

I personally do not think DC really cares about teams and riders for the classics. I think the focus towards PR has to do with Hincapie and payment to him for his loyalty. Other then that , they seem to want riders that are more GT riders. I think the sponsor has a lot to do with that, and with the age of specialization in cycling a team almost has to compete in either the GT or the Classics. Otherwise I think they would have gave Horner a better shot, with him being American.
I believe the Giro and TDF is what we will see them attempt to build a team for.... But they will still have a few riders that can earn PRoTour points too. This year they had a solid team going into the Giro but Basso is just so strong. And the TDF is out of the question this year with Basso and JU looking good ,but they still will see what some of the team riders have.
To sign LH would be expensive. And the Giro and TDF is what the world market knows, not the classics. And Discovery wants a world market for their sponsor. I think sponsors dictate more to cycling teams then we know. They sign the paychecks.

limerickman said:

For Hoste to walk up the koppenberg and to be still able to challenge at RVV indicates a great rider to me.

Once the first of the riders put their feet down on the Koppenberg pretty much the rest of the peloton is resigned to hoofing up as well. In fact that used to be a strategy teams would use - just get off your bike and block. So having to push his bike up the hill is really nothing more than an indication he was in poor position at the bottom - Hincapie was in the right place and rode up easily - not as easily as Boonen but nobody else did either.

So maybe Hoste is the better classics rider of the two, but this isn't a good indicator.

musette said:

Oh-ohh for Savoldelli. He starts signaling TD doesn't have to help him anymore, probably at direction of Yates as a face-saving measure for Il Falco:

TD "is a very good prospect, with an uncommon talent, he can do well in both ITTs and mountain stages. His weak point is the lack of experience, but the team are looking after that. We think that he can be a very successful rider in years to come. Yesterday I told him he was free to go and stay with the best ones, he didn't succeed, such that he slowed down and waited for me and helped me, but if he wants to have a go again, he'll be free to."

🙁 for Savoldelli. The coverage in the US through the cyclingnews/OLN website doesn't quite reveal where Rubiera duriing, for example, key portions of yesterday's stage.

I agree that TD is a very good rider with a lot of potential. He has tested well, beating LA's stats in some categories. But he will never win the Tour de France or the Giro. He only has a small chance of ever winning the Giro.

In any given year there are only 1-3 riders actually capable of winning the TDF. 99% of the PRoTour riders are not capable of winning a TDF/Giro. A TDF rider must be the best TT'er, a excellent climber, but most importantly, he must be able to recover quickly.......
Example..... JU,Indurain,Armstrong..... All seem to get stronger as the TDF goes into the final week ...... As compared to a Classic rider.... Boonen for example..... Great rider, but after he won Flanders...... he claimed he was out of gas for PR...... Several days of racing and he is out of gas? A Classic rider and a GT rider simply are different.

Looking at the last 25 years of the TDF there has only been 10 winners, but 4 riders have won 20 of the last 25 TDF's....Hinault[5], Lemond [3]. Indurain [5] and Armstrong [7]...... The GT's take a unique type of rider. And of these great GT riders we have one P-R winnner.......Hinault [1981] No Flanders winners, one L-b-L winner in Hinault [1980], Hinault again in 1977 won G-W and F-W. Armsrong won a F-W.
As a rider you are basically capable of one style of winning.

I don't disagree with the overall point you are making, but I think you are being silly about Boonen.

Did you forget that last year he did the Flanders/PR double? "Out of gas" is relative, anyway, as he made the main selection at PR, and being in the second chase group (5th or 2nd overall, depending on your point of view) is hardly a bad recovery after Flanders. And while he did peak for that week, he was certainly competitive in the weeks before and after.

It will be interesting to see how Valverde's career evolves; he did a one-day double this spring, does he also have a GT in him (already 4th at the Vuelta, right?)?

wolfix said:

In any given year there are only 1-3 riders actually capable of winning the TDF. 99% of the PRoTour riders are not capable of winning a TDF/Giro. A TDF rider must be the best TT'er, a excellent climber, but most importantly, he must be able to recover quickly.......
Example..... JU,Indurain,Armstrong..... All seem to get stronger as the TDF goes into the final week ...... As compared to a Classic rider.... Boonen for example..... Great rider, but after he won Flanders...... he claimed he was out of gas for PR...... Several days of racing and he is out of gas? A Classic rider and a GT rider simply are different.

wolfix said:

Looking at the last 25 years of the TDF there has only been 10 winners, but 4 riders have won 20 of the last 25 TDF's....Hinault[5], Lemond [3]. Indurain [5] and Armstrong [7]...... The GT's take a unique type of rider. And of these great GT riders we have one P-R winnner.......Hinault [1981] No Flanders winners, one L-b-L winner in Hinault [1980], Hinault again in 1977 won G-W and F-W. Armsrong won a F-W.
As a rider you are basically capable of one style of winning.

I don't have time or inclination to hunt down all the comparative info, but, for example, Armstrong was also 2nd at Amstel twice in his TdF years. The distinction is not quite as strong as you make it, although it is an interesting and relevant point.

Going forward, in our era of specialization, the distinction may only strengthen, but not necessarily because of rider type. For example, is Basso incapable of a big one-day win, because he is a GT-type rider, or can he do it but chooses not to because he wants to avoid early season in-the-red efforts, or does he choose not to because he wants to support his teammates in their chosen targeted events?

wolfix said:

To sign LH would be expensive. And the Giro and TDF is what the world market knows, not the classics. And Discovery wants a world market for their sponsor. I think sponsors dictate more to cycling teams then we know. They sign the paychecks.

Also, for DC to re-sign LH, LH would want complete freedom from GH (i.e., no need to subjugate his own interests to those of GH in a race) and DC will not want that because (i) DC is in part controlled by LA and LA is very good friends with GH, (ii) DC believes in a team working as a team in a race and in the DS dictating tactics, and (iii) GH will never be below LH in terms of their point person for the Classics, until GH retires.

Also, what LH did in Tour of Flanders, even though LH got second, would not be universally viewed as being positive within DC.

The point made above is as rudimentary as to say: Sprinters and one-day Classics riders are not GT GC contenders. What's the debate?

musette said:

Also, for DC to re-sign LH, LH would want complete freedom from GH (i.e., no need to subjugate his own interests to those of GH in a race) and DC will not want that because (i) DC is in part controlled by LA and LA is very good friends with GH, (ii) DC believes in a team working as a team in a race and in the DS dictating tactics, and (iii) GH will never be below LH in terms of their point person for the Classics, until GH retires.

Also, what LH did in Tour of Flanders, even though LH got second, would not be universally viewed as being positive within DC.

The point made above is as rudimentary as to say: Sprinters and one-day Classics riders are not GT GC contenders. What's the debate?

sportwereld.be didn't only publish the story that LH will sign with Davitamon, for 2 weeks they also published a story that Bruyneel wanted to keep LH and offered him more money, but he said Disco couldn't pay LH what Davitamon was offering him... I don't think Bruyneel is very happy that LH will leave Disco...

musette said:

Did you happen to get your "information" from the DC website?

http://www.thepaceline.com/members/staff_report_item.aspx?cid=2321

No, not from the pacline but in this instance pacleine and what I was told corroborate.