Newbie question about clipless pedals...

Brian said:

-What's the difference between SPD, SPD-R and SPD-SL (I know they're not
interchangeable)?

SPD is the Shimano casual cycling or MTB based system (but which many
people also happen to use for road work). It uses a recessed cleat.

SPD-R and SPD-SL are the Shimano road specific based systems. SPD-R
was the forerunner of SPD-SL and is no longer actively sold, although
you can still get replacement cleats. These systems use a cleat which
sits proud of the shoe sole and is therefore difficult to walk on.

SPD shoes are mainly of the slightly more flexible, training shoe
type, where as SPD-SL shoes are generally full on roadie style, with
a rigid sole.

Quoted message said:

-Do Look delta cleats and Look Keo cleats use the same fixings to shoes
(again, I know not interchangeable)?

I'm not positive but, yes, I believe they both use the same fixing
pattern. You should be able to use either standard Delta or Keo cleats
on any Look compatible shoe.

Quoted message said:

-Are all Look delta cleats compatible with all Look (non-Keo) pedals?

Again, I'm not positive, but yes I think they are. Be aware though
that they don't all perform the same. There are differences in how
much float they allow, for example between black and red Look cleats.

Quoted message said:

-Are non-Shimano Pedals/Cleats that say they are SPD compatible
interchangebable with Shimano SPD parts? (i.e. will a 3rd party cleat
fit a Shimano pedal and vice versa?)

Maybe, although not reliably. You'll get unpredictable results trying
to use non Shimano cleats in genuine Shimano SPD pedals. Some will fit
and work after a fashion, some aren't at all happy. When it comes to
your cleat/pedal set up you want it to work smoothly and reliably,
personally I don't mix and match and I wouldn't recommend it.

Quoted message said:

-I've read that ATB shoes will fit ATB pedals and Road shoes will fit
Road pedals, but not necessarily the other - even if they use the same
mechanism. Is this true? And if so, why is this? Is this just down to
whether or not the cleat is recessed?

If they use the same fixing pattern, or the shoe manufacturer offers
an adapter plate for the pedal type you wish to use, then yes you
should be able to fit atb cleats to road shoes. Road cleats (Look etc)
will almost never fit ATB type shoes, there's just no room for the
bigger cleat in the sole recess.

The bottom line is that ATB oriented shoes almost universally use the
same two hole fixing pattern, because all the major ATB pedal systems
require it - SPD, ATAC's, Eggbeaters. The road based systems use a
different pattern, so mixing shoes and pedals between the "families"
of pedal system isn't very practical.

Quoted message said:

-And if I buy a shoe which has a non-recessed cleat, is it okay to walk
on (I realise it won't be comfortable, but I mean will I damage the
cleat by doing so)?

Well, you won't break it the moment you walk on it, but you will wear
it out very prematurely, which can get expensive. You can buy cleat
covers to put on if you intend to do more than hobble into your house
at the end of a ride, but it's another thing to carry, or forget.

If you're going to want to walk much at all, stick with a recessed
cleat system.

Quoted message said:

Sorry to throw so many questions at you at once

No bother.

"Bob"
--

Email address is spam trapped, to reply directly remove the beverage.

Brian said:

-What's the difference between SPD, SPD-R and SPD-SL (I know they're not
interchangeable)?

I can only echo what Call Me Bob said.

When I first went clipless, I opted for SPD-R and I really got on well
them - nice big platform, plenty of 'float' (which felt a bit weird at
first but is well worth getting used to), and a very secure feel to the
connection between shoe and pedal.

The pedals were R535 (no longer available, I think):
<url:http://www.precisiontandems.com/cat_pics/pdr535.jpg>
And the shoes were roughly the same as these ones, but blue:
<url:http://www.wiggle.co.uk/images/shimano%20r074%20new.jpg>

Then I started using my bike for commuting, so I wanted combination
pedals (clipless one side, platform on the other), which you can't get
for an SPD-R cleat. I also wanted shoes with recessed cleats, so had to
get new shoes as well.

The pedals were M324 (still widely available):
<url:http://www.wiggle.co.uk/images/shimano%20m324%2004.jpg>
And the shoes were these ones (albeit an older model):
<url:http://www.wiggle.co.uk/images/shimano%20m072%20new.jpg>

Quoted message said:

-And if I buy a shoe which has a non-recessed cleat, is it okay to walk
on (I realise it won't be comfortable, but I mean will I damage the
cleat by doing so)?

The SPD-R shoes have a completely smooth sole, but the cleats have
little 'pontoons' that make it possible to walk in them without damaging
the connecting part (and to avoid scratching wooden floors), although
they are a little awkward since the soles are very stiff and you feel
like your toes are pointing in the air. This is OK because I only wear
these shoes when on a longer ride where I don't intend to be doing much
walking. If you are intending to be doing much walking in the shoes, I
would definitely advise you to go for recessed cleats.

However, the SPD is a much smaller cleat. The connection between shoe
and pedal doesn't feel as secure, and there is no 'float' (though they
do allow a little bit of movement). But the set-up with the combination
pedal and recessed cleats is much more suitable for use on a commuting
bike. So, there are advantages and disadvantages to each system - which
you choose largely depends on what type of riding you want to use them for.

If it's for everyday use, shopping, commuting, touring, etc, I don't
think you can do better than the SPD combination pedals and shoes with
recessed cleats.

If it's for training/racing, you want a dedicated system like SPD-SL or
Look (though I have never used Look so can't comment on them specifically).

d.

in message <[email hidden]>, Brian ([email hidden]'😉

Quoted message said:

Okay, I'm really, really confused. Can someone please help me sort this
out? I'm looking to get my first set of clipless pedals and matching
shoes & cleats for my road bike. Now, as far as I can see, there are
only two systems which are suitable for me (i.e. which are cheap
enough!), Shimano SPD and Look. I've got a couple of specific questions
though:

-What's the difference between SPD, SPD-R and SPD-SL (I know they're
not interchangeable)?

SPD was Shimano's original cleat system (well, not quite. Originally,
Shimano badge-engineered Look pedals and cleats). The cleat is held to
the show by two bolts, side by side, and is quite small; it is normally
recessed into the tread on the sole of the shoe, so can be walked on
normally. It is not used mainly as an MTB system, since it didn't prove
competitive as a road system. As an MTB system it suffers badly from mud
clogging and is generally not as good as competing systems from Time,
Crank Bros and Speedplay. SPD-R cleats are much larger and aren't
recessed; they were designed to compete with the Look delta system but
largely failed. SPD-R have two bolts, one in front of the other. SPD-SL
replace SPD-R. They may be better, but I haven't tried them.

Quoted message said:

-Do Look delta cleats and Look Keo cleats use the same fixings to shoes
(again, I know not interchangeable)?

Yes, the bolt pattern is the same.

Quoted message said:

-Are all Look delta cleats compatible with all Look (non-Keo) pedals?

No. Look also badge-engineer Crank Bros Eggbeaters, which use a different
system altogether, with a bolt pattern compatible with SPD.

Quoted message said:

-Are non-Shimano Pedals/Cleats that say they are SPD compatible
interchangebable with Shimano SPD parts? (i.e. will a 3rd party cleat
fit a Shimano pedal and vice versa?)

Usually, yes. I've never found any that didn't, but that's not a
guarantee.

Quoted message said:

-I've read that ATB shoes will fit ATB pedals and Road shoes will fit
Road pedals, but not necessarily the other - even if they use the same
mechanism. Is this true? And if so, why is this? Is this just down to
whether or not the cleat is recessed?

Errrmm... Almost all road shoes have three bolt holes for Look cleats.
Almost all MTB shoes have two bolt holes for SPD, Time ATAC, Eggbeater
or Speedplay cleats. I believe there are shoes with five bolt holes
which can be used with either system, but I've never seen any.

Quoted message said:

-And if I buy a shoe which has a non-recessed cleat, is it okay to walk
on (I realise it won't be comfortable, but I mean will I damage the
cleat by doing so)?

You can buy 'cafe covers' which clip over the cleat. The cleats won't be
damaged very quickly, anyway - they wear out over time, but not
immediately - but they tend to be slippery and it can be quite dangerous
walking on a polished floor in cleats. The 'cafe covers' also protect
the cleats, meaning they last longer. Recommended.

I now use Time ATAC on my mountain bike and Look Keo on my road bike.
I've been through three different mountain bike systems and four
different road systems, and am now very happy with what I've got. Prior
to the development of clipless systems I used clips-and-straps on both
road bikes and mountain bikes, and believe me clipless is a /huge/
improvement.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
Windows 95:
You, you, you! You make a grown man cry...
M. Jagger/K. Richards

davek said:

However, the SPD is a much smaller cleat. The connection between shoe
and pedal doesn't feel as secure, and there is no 'float' (though they
do allow a little bit of movement).

They do have float, about 5 degrees, though it's not as free as that of
some other systems.

But the set-up with the

Quoted message said:

combination pedal and recessed cleats is much more suitable for use
on a commuting bike. So, there are advantages and disadvantages to
each system - which you choose largely depends on what type of riding
you want to use them for.

/snip

Quoted message said:

If it's for training/racing, you want a dedicated system like SPD-SL
or Look

Also fine for more recreational road-bike rides if you don't mind taking
the risk over possibly having to walk home on inflexible soles if there's
some unfixable problem with the bike. The thought of a 40 mile walk in
roadie shoes is a worry! Stopping for a natural break or to buy a drink
is no big deal thanks to cleat covers.

They could also be used for commuting if you have normal shoes to change
into at the other end.

~PB

Brian said:

-Do Look delta cleats and Look Keo cleats use the same fixings to
shoes (again, I know not interchangeable)?

Yes, the same holes in the shoes take standard Look, Look Keo, SPD-L and
various others.

Quoted message said:

-Are all Look delta cleats compatible with all Look (non-Keo) pedals?

With all "PP" and similar models -- nearly all the non-Keo ones, in other
words.

The relatively low cost of replacement cleats* is why I'm sticking with
Look PP pedals for the time being, instead of moving on up to Keo or
another make. I think I might miss Look's 9 degrees of float as well if I
went over to SPD-SL (6 degrees).

Down sides of basic Looks include high stack height -- feet are placed
further above axle than with most other systems, which is supposed to be
ineffcicient and the saddle has to be a touch higher -- and not very good
bearings. As far as weight goes, they might be comparitively heavy, but
to put it into perspective, that's only compared to modern minimilist
pedals. They're actually no heavier than decent quill pedals that were
not thought of as heavy when they were the norm not all that many years
ago.

* Be a patient eBay loiterer and the odd individual will bung a pair up
for just £4 or so on Buy It Now. (Regular traders charge a lot more).

Note that new pedals are normally supplied with cleats.

Quoted message said:

-Are non-Shimano Pedals/Cleats that say they are SPD compatible
interchangebable with Shimano SPD parts? (i.e. will a 3rd party cleat
fit a Shimano pedal and vice versa?)

-I've read that ATB shoes will fit ATB pedals and Road shoes will fit
Road pedals, but not necessarily the other - even if they use the same
mechanism. Is this true? And if so, why is this? Is this just down to
whether or not the cleat is recessed?

No I don't think that's true (because they do tend to use different
mechanisms). It's just that most ATB shoes don't have fixings for road
cleats, and vice versa.

Quoted message said:

-And if I buy a shoe which has a non-recessed cleat, is it okay to
walk on (I realise it won't be comfortable, but I mean will I damage
the cleat by doing so)?

It does wear the cleat but a few steps here and there don't matter too
much The worst thing for Look cleats, in my experience, is putting a tip
toe down at stops without getting off the saddle: grinds tip of cleat.

With plastic cleats (like Look's), there's also a slight chance of
cracking one -- although this won't necessarily stop it working
altogether. I was able to carry on after a whole corner of a Look cleat
disappeared! (Don't know what made it break).

On my other bike, by the way, I use inexpensive Shimano SPD pedals and
shoes. Comfortable and very practical indeed.

~PB

If you go SPD (which is what I'd recommend, unless you are into the
roadie scene and don't mind waddling around like a duck, rather than
walking when you are off your bike), just be aware that not all
non-Shimano 'SPD compatible' shoes will work first time with Shimano
SPD pedals, without a bit of hacking with the Stanley knife around the
cleat recess in the sole (in my experience).

Simon Brooke said:

or Speedplay cleats. I believe there are shoes with five bolt holes
which can be used with either system, but I've never seen any.

Last weekend when I was looking for new shoes, every Specialized shoe
I picked up had a vastly complicated arrangement on the sole of some
fixed and some sliding holes (looked to be about seven of them from
memory) which claim to accomodate every cleat there is.

regards, Ian SMith
--
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|o o|
|/ \|

Thank you all for all your help - I think this is the first time I've
ever used Usenet and every single comment was (a) topical and (b) useful!

On balance, I think I shall go with a cheap pair of Looks (Probably the
PP247) and dedicated road shoes, since my commuter bike still has
platform pedals and I (hopefully) shouldn't need to walk when wearing my
bike shoes. I guess I can always upgrade them later if I feel the need to!

Thanks once again!

Brian

Pete Biggs said:

They do have float, about 5 degrees, though it's not as free as that of
some other systems.

They don't call it 'float' though, do they? ISTR they have another name
for it.

In any case, the movement definitely feels very different to the 'float'
on the SPD-Rs, and not just in the degree of movement allowed - with the
SPD-Rs you rotate the foot, with the SPDs it feels more like lateral
movement.

Or maybe it feels different because the cleat is so much smaller. I just
don't know!

d.

davek said:

Pete Biggs said:

They do have float, about 5 degrees, though it's not as free as that
of some other systems.

They don't call it 'float' though, do they? ISTR they have another
name for it.

I don't know what Shimano call it but it is what is commonly known as
float.

Quoted message said:

In any case, the movement definitely feels very different to the
'float' on the SPD-Rs, and not just in the degree of movement allowed
- with the SPD-Rs you rotate the foot,

There is free(ish) rotational movement with the Shimano SPD pedals and
cleats I use, and with the FPD ones I used before. Friction varies from
system to system as well and friction very much influences what the float
feels like.

I haven't used SPD-R but do use Looks and their float does feel different.
I suppose it does will all the different systems.

Quoted message said:

with the SPDs it feels more like lateral movement.

There's none with mine. It's definitely rotational movement. I've had a
close look with me off the bike and a shoe upside down on the double-sided
pedal -- which makes it all very clearly visible.

~PB

Brian said:

On balance, I think I shall go with a cheap pair of Looks (Probably the
PP247) and dedicated road shoes, since my commuter bike still has
platform pedals and I (hopefully) shouldn't need to walk when wearing my
bike shoes. I guess I can always upgrade them later if I feel the need to!

Careful - I thought I'd just put clipless on my most-used bike.
Pretty soon, I had them on all my bikes and the trike.

Getting used to releasing from clipless takes a little time (and
traditionally, one fall, which is located at teh most embarrasing time
and place possible). I found that it was much worse, having got used
to clipless, going back to clips and straps - even more falls.

regards, Ian SMith
--
|\ /| no .sig
|o o|
|/ \|

take two

davek said:

In any case, the movement definitely feels very different to the
'float' on the SPD-Rs, and not just in the degree of movement allowed

Degree of rotional movement allowed and float is the same thing, I reckon.
It's just that the float is freeer with some systems than others, and with
some there may be a central zone where movement is freeer than it is
towards the limits. But it's all "float" really until you hit the point
where rotating any more would release. Fortunately extra force is rquired
before that happens beyond any normal natural movement.

~PB

Ian Smith said:

Brian said:

On balance, I think I shall go with a cheap pair of Looks (Probably the
PP247) and dedicated road shoes, since my commuter bike still has
platform pedals and I (hopefully) shouldn't need to walk when wearing my
bike shoes. I guess I can always upgrade them later if I feel the need to!

Careful - I thought I'd just put clipless on my most-used bike.
Pretty soon, I had them on all my bikes and the trike.

:-) Sounds like my experience with clipless.

Quoted message said:

Getting used to releasing from clipless takes a little time (and
traditionally, one fall, which is located at teh most embarrasing time
and place possible).

Everyone told me this, but I had never such a fall but one even more
embarassing. When I'd got my first recumbent trike I used my last
upright only for pulling my trailer. Once, after some weeks only using
the trike I had to transport some beer crates. I had to stop in front of
a kindergarten while parents took their children home - and just forgot
to put a foot down. The bike was equipped with simple platform pedals
without clips.

Quoted message said:

I found that it was much worse, having got used
to clipless, going back to clips and straps - even more falls.

I hope I never have to.

regards, Klaus