Mongoose, any good?

in message <[email hidden]>, Virgils Ghost

(') said:

Hi there,

I'm looking for a decent bike, nothing too special, are Mongoose any
good? I was thinking of the following in particular :-
http://www.sunsetmtb.co.uk/shop/index.php?product_id=137&category_id=7

No. At that price point, avoid rear suspension and disk brakes. Good
suspension is expensive; bad suspension is not worth having. The
cheapest rear suspension unit that is any good costs very nearly as much
as that bike.

Same pretty much applies to disk brakes. Good ones cost £100 each (i.e.
£200 for a full bike); cable operated ones are not better than rim
brakes, and are heavier.

Look at the Claud Butler Cape Wrath for a really good bike at that price
point.
http://www.falconcycles.co.uk/CORP/cb/capewrath.html

Quoted message said:

Also, what about the frame size? I'm about 6ft 1, will I need a medium
or large frame?

Almost certainly large, although it does depend on what make you're
buying.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; Human history becomes more and more a race between
;; education and catastrophe.
H.G. Wells, "The Outline of History"

Quoted message said:

I'm looking for a decent bike, nothing too special, are Mongoose any
good? I was thinking of the following in particular :-
http://www.sunsetmtb.co.uk/shop/index.php?product_id=137&category_id=7

Just to back Simon's points up, a cycling magazine had a feature on budget
full-suspension mtb's. Pricepoint was £1000. I reckon you could probably
find something good for around £800.

If you're cycling on the roads or smooth trails consider a bike without
suspension. It'll be lighter, won't bob and eat up energy when you pedal
(suspension comes with lockouts for use on road) and the money will have
been spent on better components.

Also, if cycling on roads, check it can have mudguards fitted.

"Mark Thompson"
<pleasegivegenerously@warmmail*_turn_up_the_heat_to_reply*.com> wrote in
message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I'm looking for a decent bike, nothing too special, are Mongoose any
good? I was thinking of the following in particular :-
http://www.sunsetmtb.co.uk/shop/index.php?product_id=137&category_id=7

Just to back Simon's points up, a cycling magazine had a feature on budget
full-suspension mtb's. Pricepoint was £1000. I reckon you could probably
find something good for around £800.

If you're cycling on the roads or smooth trails consider a bike without
suspension. It'll be lighter, won't bob and eat up energy when you pedal
(suspension comes with lockouts for use on road) and the money will have
been spent on better components.

Also, if cycling on roads, check it can have mudguards fitted.

Ok, thanks guys! I mistakenly thought the discs were also hydraulic. Is it
worth digging a little deeper for a decent spec? :-

http://www.mongoose.com/bikes/detail.php?id=347&brandLine=Pro_International&brandID=57

The brakes seem to be the business on that, but I'm not sure about the specs
of the rear shock.

Virgils Ghost said:

"Mark Thompson"
<pleasegivegenerously@warmmail*_turn_up_the_heat_to_reply*.com> wrote in
message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I'm looking for a decent bike, nothing too special, are Mongoose any
good? I was thinking of the following in particular :-
http://www.sunsetmtb.co.uk/shop/index.php?product_id=137&category_id=7

Just to back Simon's points up, a cycling magazine had a feature on budget
full-suspension mtb's. Pricepoint was £1000. I reckon you could probably
find something good for around £800.

If you're cycling on the roads or smooth trails consider a bike without
suspension. It'll be lighter, won't bob and eat up energy when you pedal
(suspension comes with lockouts for use on road) and the money will have
been spent on better components.

Also, if cycling on roads, check it can have mudguards fitted.

Ok, thanks guys! I mistakenly thought the discs were also hydraulic. Is it
worth digging a little deeper for a decent spec? :-

http://www.mongoose.com/bikes/detail.php?id=347&brandLine=Pro_International&brandID=57

The brakes seem to be the business on that, but I'm not sure about the specs
of the rear shock.

That's digging quite a lot deeper in your pocket, by a factor of ~2.5.
Also, the two bikes are not quite aimed at the same kind of riding. I'm
sure you would get better advice out of the folk around here if you told
us what sort of riding you intend to do with the bike (distance,
terrain, level of competition etc.).

JimP

--
Let's think the unthinkable, let's do the undoable, let's prepare to
grapple with the ineffable itself, and see if we may not eff it after
all. - DNA

Simon Brooke said:

Same pretty much applies to disk brakes. Good ones cost £100 each (i.e.
£200 for a full bike); cable operated ones are not better than rim
brakes. . . .

Piffle!

druidh

in message <[email hidden]>, Virgils Ghost

(') said:

"Mark Thompson"
<pleasegivegenerously@warmmail*_turn_up_the_heat_to_reply*.com> wrote
in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I'm looking for a decent bike, nothing too special, are Mongoose any
good? I was thinking of the following in particular :-

http://www.sunsetmtb.co.uk/shop/index.php?product_id=137&category_id=7

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Just to back Simon's points up, a cycling magazine had a feature on
budget
full-suspension mtb's. Pricepoint was £1000. I reckon you could
probably find something good for around £800.

If you're cycling on the roads or smooth trails consider a bike
without
suspension. It'll be lighter, won't bob and eat up energy when you
pedal (suspension comes with lockouts for use on road) and the money
will have been spent on better components.

Also, if cycling on roads, check it can have mudguards fitted.

Ok, thanks guys! I mistakenly thought the discs were also hydraulic. Is
it worth digging a little deeper for a decent spec? :-

http://www.mongoose.com/bikes/detail.php?id=347&brandLine=Pro_International&brandID=57

Quoted message said:

The brakes seem to be the business on that, but I'm not sure about the
specs of the rear shock.

It's a Unified Rear Triangle. While some URT bikes have been good
(notably the Klein Mantra), they had radically different geometry from
that. In general, URTs suffer from much worse pedal bob than other full
suspension designs and react oddly when you get out of the seat. On the
Mantra, this works to the good - the bike stiffens up remarkably as you
get out of the seat which is why Mantras, unlike other full suspension
bikes, climb like rats up drainpipes. But on all other URT designs I
know of, it's just a bloody nuisance.

Mongoose are, in any case, not a quality brand.

If you really, really, want a full suspension bike the Giant Trance 4 -
about £900 - is the cheapest that's worth buying. If you want something
a bit burlier, for lumpier downhills, the Giant Reign 3 - about £1,000 -
is good value for money.

But if you don't want to spend that much, avoid rear suspension, avoid
disk brakes, and go for the lightest frame with the best (preferably
air) fork that you can get for your money.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

Hobbit ringleader gives Sauron One in the Eye.

in message <[email hidden]>, druidh

(') said:

Simon Brooke said:

Same pretty much applies to disk brakes. Good ones cost £100 each
(i.e. £200 for a full bike); cable operated ones are not better than
rim brakes. . . .

Piffle!

And your counter argument is?

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

'Victories are not solutions.'
;; John Hume, Northern Irish politician, on Radio Scotland 1/2/95
;; Nobel Peace Prize laureate 1998; few have deserved it so much

Simon Brooke said:

in message <[email hidden]>, druidh

(') said:

Simon Brooke said:

Same pretty much applies to disk brakes. Good ones cost £100 each
(i.e. £200 for a full bike); cable operated ones are not better than
rim brakes. . . .

Piffle!

And your counter argument is?

Avid cable mechs. £50ish each, and jolly jolly good.

--
Ambrose

"Jim Price" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
<

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The brakes seem to be the business on that, but I'm not sure about the
specs of the rear shock.

That's digging quite a lot deeper in your pocket, by a factor of ~2.5.
Also, the two bikes are not quite aimed at the same kind of riding. I'm
sure you would get better advice out of the folk around here if you told
us what sort of riding you intend to do with the bike (distance, terrain,
level of competition etc.).

Hi again,

A decent bit of terrain around the national parks and former quarries, if
you can lock the shock for road use that would also be useful.

I'd rather just get a decent bike now otherwise I might end up shelling out
twice and collecting them if I wanted better down the line.

in message <[email hidden]>, Ambrose Nankivell

(') said:

Simon Brooke said:

in message <[email hidden]>, druidh

(') said:

Simon Brooke wrote:

> Same pretty much applies to disk brakes. Good ones cost £100 each
> (i.e. £200 for a full bike); cable operated ones are not better than
> rim brakes. . . .

Piffle!

And your counter argument is?

Avid cable mechs. £50ish each, and jolly jolly good.

Better than rim brakes, which act in the same way but on a rotor 26
inches in diameter? I think their designer should apply for a job as
Chief Engineer on the Starship Enterprise, as he clearly /can/ change
the laws of physics!

The critical difference, in my opinion, is between hydraulic brakes of
any kind and cable operated brakes of any kind. Magura hydraulic rim
brakes are widely used by trials bike riders, who need the best braking
control of all, because they have the leverage advantages of rim brakes
in combination with the control advantages of hydraulic brakes.

Cable operated disks, from an engineering point of view, are just the
worst of both worlds.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

[ Disclaimer:  This is a work displacement exercise.  Please feel free ]
[ to reply either on or off group.  Expect lengthy replies until the ]
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in message <[email hidden]>, Virgils Ghost

(') said:

A decent bit of terrain around the national parks and former quarries,
if you can lock the shock for road use that would also be useful.

I'd rather just get a decent bike now otherwise I might end up shelling
out twice and collecting them if I wanted better down the line.

If I had to replace my Jekyll now, I'd buy one of these:

* Cannondale Rush http://www.cannondale.com/rush/, almost certainly the
1000 and upgrade parts - I'd really like the 'team' version but it's
silly money;
* Santa Cruz Superlight http://www.santacruzbicycles.com/superlight/
(yes, the website's [censored]; fortunately the bike isn't) built up with
SRAM transmission, Mavic wheels, Hope Mono Mini brakes, possibly a USE
SUB fork or else a Fox Float RLC;
* Nicolai Nonius CC http://www.nicolai.net/order/nonius-cc.html with a
similar build to the Santa Cruz;
* Orange 5 http://www.orangebikes.co.uk/2006bikes/five-se.php, in the SE
spec.

What these bikes have in common

* Light enough to ride up hills all day;
* Rear suspension unit inside the rear triangle where it is protected
from too much dirt;
* Simple single pivot in line with the top of the middle chain ring,
reduces pedal bob and much less vulnerable to dirt and wear;
* Enough suspension travel to cope with anything except landing huge
jumps, which I don't do.

These are all cross country bikes. If the sort of cycling you want to do
is hurtling down impossible descents and landing enormous jumps, then
you will want something a bit tougher - and a ski-lift to get it up to
the top.

The thing is, many mountain bikes are designed for the western USA, where
conditions are generally fairly dry. Putting the rear suspension unit in
front of the rear wheel (e.g. my Jekyll, various Scott designs) or
beside it (e.g. some Specialized designs) doesn't matter in dusty
conditions (provided the shock is not too greasy) because the dust
doesn't cling; but it doesn't work well in muddy British conditions. Mud
and grit collect on the rear shock and cause wear, and that's a very
expensive unit, especially if it has a stable platform valve.

Similarly, lots of pivots in the rear suspension, especially pivots above
the back wheel (all the various rocking-arm designs, e.g. anything from
Kona) are vulnerable to wear. Furthermore, none of these 'clever' rear
suspension designs seem to show any real benefit, especially these days
when we have shocks with stable platform valves.

The bike I'd look at with lust and end up not buying is the Nicolai
Nucleon TFR http://www.nicolai.net/order/nucleon-tfr.html. I lust after
it because putting the transmission components inside the frame triangle
rather than hanging them out by the rear wheel has to be a good idea,
has to be the way of the future. But I wouldn't buy it because it's
simply too heavy. If Nicolai could build a cross-country version of the
Nucleon I think they'd have a winner.

Final thought: when I bought my Jekyll I was stingy and bought a mid-spec
model (700, cost £1750 new). I have spent so much money on upgrading
that bike since that I would definitely have been better off spending
another thousand and getting a top spec model. Having said that, buying
new jewelry for it is fun, and it is now tuned exactly how I like it
(and is actually lighter than my girlfriend's Santa Cruz Superlight).

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

... a mild, inoffensive sadist...

"Simon Brooke" <[email hidden]> wrote:

Ambrose Nankivell (') said:

Quoted message said:

Avid cable mechs. £50ish each, and jolly jolly good.

Quoted message said:

Better than rim brakes, which act in the same way but on a rotor
26 inches in diameter? I think their designer should apply for a
job as Chief Engineer on the Starship Enterprise, as he clearly
/can/ change the laws of physics!

What do the laws of physics have to say about a caliper with five times the
mechanical advantage acting on a rotor one quarter the diameter, and a
system whose limits are determined by pitch-over (front) and tyre traction
(rear)?

Quoted message said:

The critical difference, in my opinion, is between hydraulic brakes of
any kind and cable operated brakes of any kind. Magura hydraulic rim
brakes are widely used by trials bike riders, who need the best braking
control of all, because they have the leverage advantages of rim brakes
in combination with the control advantages of hydraulic brakes.

Disk brakes - including mechanicals - are making large inroads into the
trials market, and hydraulic rims brakes have never had much market share
outside it.

James Thomson

Virgils Ghost said:

"Jim Price" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
<

Quoted message said:

I'm
sure you would get better advice out of the folk around here if you told
us what sort of riding you intend to do with the bike (distance, terrain,
level of competition etc.).

Hi again,

A decent bit of terrain around the national parks and former quarries, if
you can lock the shock for road use that would also be useful.

I'd rather just get a decent bike now otherwise I might end up shelling out
twice and collecting them if I wanted better down the line.

OK, as you seem to be happy with something around the £1000 mark (which
gets you onto good FS bike territory at list prices), and I'll assume
you aren't going down the faces of the former quarries, I would tend to
go for something like this (in your size, of course):
http://www.bonthronebikes.co.uk/13-14155?sid=6f7fa14c3f3f8681
Which has the same frame as this:
http://www.bonthronebikes.co.uk/14-14605?sid=6f7fa14c3f3f8681
I've worked on one of these, and it's beautifully put together, but
you'd need to ride it to see if you like it.

What I currently have for full suspension duties is a GT XCR2000 from
some years ago. While it's not broken, I'm not going to change it,
because it gets less use than my hardtail off road bikes.

JimP

--
Let's think the unthinkable, let's do the undoable, let's prepare to
grapple with the ineffable itself, and see if we may not eff it after
all. - DNA

Simon Brooke said:

Better than rim brakes, which act in the same way but on a rotor 26
inches in diameter? I think their designer should apply for a job as
Chief Engineer on the Starship Enterprise, as he clearly /can/ change
the laws of physics!

The critical difference, in my opinion, is between hydraulic brakes of
any kind and cable operated brakes of any kind. Magura hydraulic rim
brakes are widely used by trials bike riders, who need the best braking
control of all, because they have the leverage advantages of rim brakes
in combination with the control advantages of hydraulic brakes.

Cable operated disks, from an engineering point of view, are just the
worst of both worlds.

I disagree. I can see several advantages to using a disc rather than a
rim as the braking surface, for example:

1) Rims tend not to run perfectly true, this limits the maximum
mechanical advantage that can be used.

2) Rim brakes are attached to the frame/forks. Flex in the frame/forks
again limits the maximum mechanical advantage. Disc brakes callipers
don't need clearance for a 2.5 inch MTB tyre, so they can be much
smaller and stiffer.

3) Less issues with contamination, since the braking surface is
significantly further from the ground.

I know several people who have changed to Avid cable operated disc
brakes from V-brakes, and all seem very happy. I've never tried them
myself, but I trust their opinion.

Oh, and for the record, I use Magura HS-33s on my MTB. They're nicer
than the V-brakes they replaced, but I wouldn't say there's *that* big a
difference. If I was starting again from scratch (and so I didn't
already have a nice set of non-disc wheels), I'd be quite tempted to go
for Avid cable operated disc brakes.

Anthony

"Simon Brooke" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Avid cable mechs. £50ish each, and jolly jolly good.

Better than rim brakes, which act in the same way but on a rotor 26
inches in diameter? I think their designer should apply for a job as
Chief Engineer on the Starship Enterprise, as he clearly /can/ change
the laws of physics!

No need to. Yes, changing the diameter will work against the disc brake. But
in it's favour are

1) The disk only needs to do braking, so you can use pads with more friction
(ones which would tear your rim up)
2) The caliper is a lot smaller, so it's got rather less flex than a rim
brake.
3) The disk will be truer than a rim, so you can run the pads a lot closer.

2 and 3 mean you can set the system up with more mechanical advantage.

I know you respect the engineers at Cannondale. Do you think they'd put
cable operated discs on their tandems, front and rear, if they didn't work?

cheers,
clive

"Simon Brooke" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

in message <[email hidden]>, Virgils Ghost

(') said:

A decent bit of terrain around the national parks and former quarries,
if you can lock the shock for road use that would also be useful.

I'd rather just get a decent bike now otherwise I might end up shelling
out twice and collecting them if I wanted better down the line.

If I had to replace my Jekyll now, I'd buy one of these:

* Cannondale Rush http://www.cannondale.com/rush/, almost certainly the
1000 and upgrade parts - I'd really like the 'team' version but it's
silly money;
* Santa Cruz Superlight http://www.santacruzbicycles.com/superlight/
(yes, the website's [censored]; fortunately the bike isn't) built up with
SRAM transmission, Mavic wheels, Hope Mono Mini brakes, possibly a USE
SUB fork or else a Fox Float RLC;
* Nicolai Nonius CC http://www.nicolai.net/order/nonius-cc.html with a
similar build to the Santa Cruz;
* Orange 5 http://www.orangebikes.co.uk/2006bikes/five-se.php, in the SE
spec.

Hi Simon,

Thanks for that, I needed some pointers, I did wonder about the shocks when
they get very caked up. I'm gonna have a good look around and see what rides
the best, I like the Cannondale but I fear the Rush may be a little too rich
for my blood.

My brother used to be well up on these things but he went over to the dark
side (cars) a few years back, it seems some of the good old names still
remain.

I can remember when hydraulic blocks were a novelty, but now hydraulic disc
brakes, woah!

Just one other point. There are many good bike shops in Cardiff.
Nobody I know ever recommends sunset. Most of my friends from the
Cathays area prefer Cyclopedia around the corner on Crwys road.