crit racing - coaching question

workingguy said:

Hello,

I got a PT Pro several months ago but wasn't really focused on training until I recently got "Training and Racing with a Power Meter." (excellent book!)

I'm a Cat 4, 65 kg, 37 yo male, FTP (est) is 240 with 1 yr racing. My best 5 min is 297 and best 10 min is 272. However, 1 min is around 450.🙁

Last year I was OTB in every crit.

Does the 250 FTP workout plan at the end of the book help with crit performance, or should I do more Lev 6-7, in addition to Lev 2-4 workouts?

Also the PT Pro does not allow you to see the average power during your interval. I find that it only displays the average power for the entire session. Has anyone figured out how to do this?

Thanks in advance.

Intervals intervals intervals, that's basically what a crit is. Get used to doing lv 5-7 intervals. If you can go to the course and do a fast ride around there to simulate the race, remember to accelerate after every turn, then you'll have some data to try and duplicate on the trainner or other straight roads.

Last night a couple of pro rider's showed up to the local crit. It's a 2 corner football shaped 0.46km(0.28mile) loop, they averaged 38km/h :eek:, which was a little to fast for me the day after a race, especially considering the short distance of the straight away's

Krazyderek,

OK, the more intervals are what I need, but how much rest in between? Should they be short duration (30"-1'😉 with equal rest, or with longer rest 3-4'? It seems the first option would simulate a crit race, but everything I've read says to have longer rest/recovery periods.

Should the work interval be constant power or high in the 1st half (600-700 15s) and lower in the 2nd half (400-500 15s)?

Please excuse stupid the questions. I'd like to know what gives the most bang for the buck.

workingguy said:

Hello,

I got a PT Pro several months ago but wasn't really focused on training until I recently got "Training and Racing with a Power Meter." (excellent book!)

I'm a Cat 4, 65 kg, 37 yo male, FTP (est) is 240 with 1 yr racing. My best 5 min is 297 and best 10 min is 272. However, 1 min is around 450.🙁

Last year I was OTB in every crit.

Does the 250 FTP workout plan at the end of the book help with crit performance, or should I do more Lev 6-7, in addition to Lev 2-4 workouts?

Also the PT Pro does not allow you to see the average power during your interval. I find that it only displays the average power for the entire session. Has anyone figured out how to do this?

Thanks in advance.

It would be helpful to race some crits and analyze the data to see what your problem is-it could just as easily be FT as l5 and 6 power. I would suggest a pretty equal l4/5/6 focus for now.

workingguy said:

OK, the more intervals are what I need, but how much rest in between? Should they be short duration (30"-1'😉 with equal rest, or with longer rest 3-4'? It seems the first option would simulate a crit race, but everything I've read says to have longer rest/recovery periods.

Shorter rest periods mean more of the work is done aerobically. Go with longer rest for your short intervals, since you're probably trying to increase anaerobic power, and use longer intervals for aerobic benefits.

workingguy said:

Hello,

I got a PT Pro several months ago but wasn't really focused on training until I recently got "Training and Racing with a Power Meter." (excellent book!)

I'm a Cat 4, 65 kg, 37 yo male, FTP (est) is 240 with 1 yr racing. My best 5 min is 297 and best 10 min is 272. However, 1 min is around 450.🙁

Last year I was OTB in every crit.

Does the 250 FTP workout plan at the end of the book help with crit performance, or should I do more Lev 6-7, in addition to Lev 2-4 workouts?

Also the PT Pro does not allow you to see the average power during your interval. I find that it only displays the average power for the entire session. Has anyone figured out how to do this?

Thanks in advance.

A few things from a guy who has done a few more than 800 criteriums...

Your FTP isn't bad for your size so I'd ask you to really focus on your cornering. Make sure you're not seeing gaps of more than a few feet form in front of you at any point before, during, or after corners. Racing with 3's and 2's (Masters open races) can really highlight your relative lack of skill in modulating your speed as you approach and go through corners. When you don't do it well you'll get immediate feedback and this will help you recognize what you need to focus on for your cornering.

Yes, criteriums are a series of short intervals and the temptation is to train that way, but when you link all those little intervals together you are actually experiencing a fairly steady state effort, so this is one area you need to improve.

Your one minute power of 450 isn't bad at all for a Cat 4, but your 5 minute power is not really enough for the hard periods in races. FTP is marginal too, and probably a major reason why you're getting shelled. Do what you can to raise your FTP to the point where you're okay with normal race pace except maybe when it gets real hard, and know that it's real hard for other people too. For your size and category something around 260-270 would be good and if you're still getting dropped then you need to work on other things.

I've used the 30/30 intervals with good success for criteriums because they stress your aerobic and anaerobic ability along with some muscular stress for accelerating out of corners. You can try 30 seconds "on" at around 350watts, then 30 seconds easy, repeat for a total of 5-7 times. Rest 4-5' between sets and then repeat for a total of 2-3 sets. Gradually add reps to each set and add sets until you're up to around 3 sets of 7-8 reps. You can add watts to the "on" portion as you go too but if you can't do at least two sets of 5 reps each you need to lower the watts. Don't sprint up to speed like you might in a race, but just accelerate rapidly while in the saddle.

Another thing that can help you is to do 10" hard accelerations in the saddle, or not-so-hard accelerations out of the saddle, followed by 50" of rest. Repeat for a total of 5-7 per set. Up to 3-4 sets. Don't use big gears for this. Something like 39 x 15 or 14 for the in the saddle stuff, and 53x18 for the out of the saddle stuff. You want to accelerate quickly mostly by increasing your rpms in the smaller gears. This is useful during races because it saves your muscles a bit.

The powertap pro will display average power during an interval. This is explained in the manual. Make sure you're in the mode that is displaying your current interval (or a previous interval). Look for the little "I" in the mid, left of the display. Use the mode button to get the little arrows in the upper part of the display where watts are displayed. Then use the select button to go from current watts to peak watts to average watts.

Krazyderek said:

Intervals intervals intervals...

I would add to this...Intervals and intervals. Esp 1 min and under...

WarrenG said:

A few things from a guy who has done a few more than 800 criteriums...

Your FTP isn't bad for your size so I'd ask you to really focus on your cornering. Make sure you're not seeing gaps of more than a few feet form in front of you at any point before, during, or after corners. Racing with 3's and 2's (Masters open races) can really highlight your relative lack of skill in modulating your speed as you approach and go through corners. When you don't do it well you'll get immediate feedback and this will help you recognize what you need to focus on for your cornering.

Yes, criteriums are a series of short intervals and the temptation is to train that way, but when you link all those little intervals together you are actually experiencing a fairly steady state effort, so this is one area you need to improve.

Your one minute power of 450 isn't bad at all for a Cat 4, but your 5 minute power is not really enough for the hard periods in races. FTP is marginal too, and probably a major reason why you're getting shelled. Do what you can to raise your FTP to the point where you're okay with normal race pace except maybe when it gets real hard, and know that it's real hard for other people too. For your size and category something around 260-270 would be good and if you're still getting dropped then you need to work on other things.

I've used the 30/30 intervals with good success for criteriums because they stress your aerobic and anaerobic ability along with some muscular stress for accelerating out of corners. You can try 30 seconds "on" at around 350watts, then 30 seconds easy, repeat for a total of 5-7 times. Rest 4-5' between sets and then repeat for a total of 2-3 sets. Gradually add reps to each set and add sets until you're up to around 3 sets of 7-8 reps. You can add watts to the "on" portion as you go too but if you can't do at least two sets of 5 reps each you need to lower the watts. Don't sprint up to speed like you might in a race, but just accelerate rapidly while in the saddle.

Another thing that can help you is to do 10" hard accelerations in the saddle, or not-so-hard accelerations out of the saddle, followed by 50" of rest. Repeat for a total of 5-7 per set. Up to 3-4 sets. Don't use big gears for this. Something like 39 x 15 or 14 for the in the saddle stuff, and 53x18 for the out of the saddle stuff. You want to accelerate quickly mostly by increasing your rpms in the smaller gears. This is useful during races because it saves your muscles a bit.

The powertap pro will display average power during an interval. This is explained in the manual. Make sure you're in the mode that is displaying your current interval (or a previous interval). Look for the little "I" in the mid, left of the display. Use the mode button to get the little arrows in the upper part of the display where watts are displayed. Then use the select button to go from current watts to peak watts to average watts.

perfect advice for the crit!!

Thanks for all your suggestions.

I tried 3 sets of 5 x 30/30. The 30 seconds rest go by way too fast! I averaged 260 for the 5 minutes trying to stay above 350 for the on interval, which felt much harder than just riding 260 for 5 minutes (VO2Max workout). I have Kreitlers w/ Killer Headwind. By the end of the 3rd set it was all I can do to keep from rolling off.

workingguy said:

Thanks for all your suggestions.

I tried 3 sets of 5 x 30/30. The 30 seconds rest go by way too fast! I averaged 260 for the 5 minutes trying to stay above 350 for the on interval, which felt much harder than just riding 260 for 5 minutes (VO2Max workout). I have Kreitlers w/ Killer Headwind. By the end of the 3rd set it was all I can do to keep from rolling off.

Sounds like you got the power level just right. Yes, it's interesting how short 30 seconds can be sometimes! I'd suggest that you add one more rep to each set when you do these again in a week or so. If you're not ready, then add the rep the following week. Do these intervals when you're fairly fresh.

The 30/30's use some muscular strength to get up to speed for all those reps, which is good for criterium training. As you get a bit stronger the accelerations will take less out of you and you'll find it "easier" to get to higher power levels.

If your FTP is 240 then normally you'd use more than 260 for VO2max intervals. Something around 270-280 would be closer to your power at VO2max. I'd suggest that you try these as 3' intervals times 4 reps, and then gradually (over the weeks) increase the time of each rep to 4:30 or 5'. Some days you might just do 2 reps of 4'.

I'd suggest only doing one VO2max workout each week or so and you may want to alternate the steady-state version with the 30/30's, depending on the other things you're training during that week.

For example, if you do the 10/50's then you'd probably want to do the steady-state version later that week, but not the 30/30's because they address some similar aspects of your fitness, whereas the steady-state version would be more different from the 10/50's.

workingguy said:

I tried 3 sets of 5 x 30/30. The 30 seconds rest go by way too fast! I averaged 260 for the 5 minutes trying to stay above 350 for the on interval, which felt much harder than just riding 260 for 5 minutes (VO2Max workout).

That's because it is much harder than 260 constant power for 5 mins. The NP for a set is probably ~300W, so it should have felt like 5 mins at 300W.

workingguy said:

Thanks for all your suggestions.

I tried 3 sets of 5 x 30/30. The 30 seconds rest go by way too fast! I averaged 260 for the 5 minutes trying to stay above 350 for the on interval, which felt much harder than just riding 260 for 5 minutes.

No wonder:

(350 W + 170 W)/2 = 260 W

((350 W^4 + 170 W^4)/2)^0.25 = 298 W (vs. your best 5 min average power of 297 W)

workingguy said:

Hello,

I got a PT Pro several months ago but wasn't really focused on training until I recently got "Training and Racing with a Power Meter." (excellent book!)

I'm a Cat 4, 65 kg, 37 yo male, FTP (est) is 240 with 1 yr racing. My best 5 min is 297 and best 10 min is 272. However, 1 min is around 450.🙁

Last year I was OTB in every crit.

Does the 250 FTP workout plan at the end of the book help with crit performance, or should I do more Lev 6-7, in addition to Lev 2-4 workouts?

Also the PT Pro does not allow you to see the average power during your interval. I find that it only displays the average power for the entire session. Has anyone figured out how to do this?

Thanks in advance.

My power levels are almost exactly the same as yours except I weight about 5 kg more most of the time. If I am fresh I have no trouble hanging onto a cat 4 crit with fields of 15-100 unless it's hilly. My WAG without watching you race is that you are lacking in technical skills or conservation of momentum/conservation of matches and not in any aspect of physical ability.

You can see average power during your interval if you leave it in interval mode and switch the power field to average - a pain to do during an interval.

Woofer said:

My power levels are almost exactly the same as yours except I weight about 5 kg more most of the time. If I am fresh I have no trouble hanging onto a cat 4 crit with fields of 15-100 unless it's hilly. My WAG without watching you race is that you are lacking in technical skills or conservation of momentum/conservation of matches and not in any aspect of physical ability.

You can see average power during your interval if you leave it in interval mode and switch the power field to average - a pain to do during an interval.

Granted, my cornering technique and race smarts may need a little work, but I got the PowerTap last year *after* the season was over only to realize that I could do MP10 at 210 and MP5 at 230. After the gains in the MP's in 8-9 months, I questioned the power values, whether I was zeroing the torque often enough, etc. But I the PT helped me understand why I was dropped. It'd be interesting to see if I can hang this year with these numbers. But numbers are numbers, and whether you can apply a "lab" environment to a fluid situation like a race is another story...

Woofer said:

My power levels are almost exactly the same as yours except I weight about 5 kg more most of the time. If I am fresh I have no trouble hanging onto a cat 4 crit with fields of 15-100 unless it's hilly. My WAG without watching you race is that you are lacking in technical skills or conservation of momentum/conservation of matches and not in any aspect of physical ability....

heck, I weigh the same as workingguy, but my numbers are almost exactly 50w higher across the board. Yet I've never cracked the top 20 in a Cat 4 NCNCA crit :o (even though I got a win and three 5ths at road races last month.) I have a teammate with very similar numbers to mine (except he weighs 10kg more) who got two wins and a 2nd in his last three crits. It's a different set of skills.

I've never been dropped, but other than taking the occasional flyer, I'm not a factor. They're too short, I need a hill to get my watts up, I use my brakes too much, I stink at positioning, blah blah blah. Raw power comes in handy, but like Woofer points out, there's a lot more going on.

I'd recommend doing as many crits as you possibly can. I'm personally not a big fan of them (for obvious reasons) but most Tuesday nights you'll find me out there riding in circles, trying to get better.

And as for 30" rest going by too fast, try 3x5' of 45/15's. :eek: Just started some of those today an' I don't like 'em very much. Incidentally, I wonder if 350w for the 30/30's might be a bit high for you workingguy? My trainer has me doing the 45/15's at 350, so maybe 300 would work better for you, given the way our #s correlate.

peterpen said:

And as for 30" rest going by too fast, try 3x5' of 45/15's. :eek: Just started some of those today an' I don't like 'em very much. Incidentally, I wonder if 350w for the 30/30's might be a bit high for you workingguy? My trainer has me doing the 45/15's at 350, so maybe 300 would work better for you, given the way our #s correlate.

Good job on the road races! Berkeley Hills and Mt. Hamilton should suit you well in the coming weeks.

If by 45/15's you mean 45" on and 15" off, you would tend to do them at a lower power than what you do for the 30/30's simply because 45" on with only 15" rest is more work and stress. Perhaps if you were doing 3-4 repetitions of 3-5' intervals your trainer would suggest something around 110% of your threshold power, e.g. 300 watts for workingguy.

FWIW. I do 30/30's at around 160% of threshold power and progress to a bit over 200%, so my suggestions for workingguy (~135%) were intended to be somewhat conservative, for starting out.

WarrenG said:

Good job on the road races! Berkeley Hills and Mt. Hamilton should suit you well in the coming weeks.

If by 45/15's you mean 45" on and 15" off, you would tend to do them at a lower power than what you do for the 30/30's simply because 45" on with only 15" rest is more work and stress. Perhaps if you were doing 3-4 repetitions of 3-5' intervals your trainer would suggest something around 110% of your threshold power, e.g. 300 watts for workingguy.

FWIW. I do 30/30's at around 160% of threshold power and progress to a bit over 200%, so my suggestions for workingguy (~135%) were intended to be somewhat conservative, for starting out.

Actually 30/30s @ 350 for me seem about right. It was hard to complete 3 sets of 5', but not impossible. I found it difficult to maintain 170 for the rest interval. Should I care about power here in the RI, ie, what % of FT? Increasing to 45/15 and decreasing power comes pretty close to a 5 minute all-out. I need to increase the # work intervals that I can sustain in a workout. Typical 1 km, 4 corner, 0:45-1:00 would mean 120 accelerations.

I worry about crits because they are the most common type of races. I'd prefer a RR to a crit any day since they require longer, steady efforts.

workingguy said:

Actually 30/30s @ 350 for me seem about right. It was hard to complete 3 sets of 5', but not impossible. I found it difficult to maintain 170 for the rest interval. Should I care about power here in the RI, ie, what % of FT? .

I just go easy during the RI. If you choose to use higher power during the RI then your power during the WI will be lowered, and for you, it sounds like you need to do the higher power during the WI.

FWIW, it's not until the 3rd or 4th WI that you really put yourself into a *VO2max* condition. If this is important to you then I'd suggest that instead of starting with 3 x5' that you start with 2 x 7'. Then maybe add a few reps each week, like 2 x 5' and 1 x 4'. You can also increase the strain but only resting 3 or 4' between blocks/sets.

For just doing lots of reps I'd go with the 10/50's I mentioned previously. I've done these and gradually worked up to 5 sets of 6, and I can tell you it is about like doing a race with lots of hard sprints. By the time you work up to 30 repetitions you will handle the out of the corner sprints much, much better.