'Ticking' headset

"PJay" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I'm a bit of a maintenance novice so apologies if this is basic stuff.

I've moved my stem and since readjusting the headset have noticed a slight
clicking sound when locking the front brake and rock the bike. I have this
issue several years ago when the bike was assembled for me by my local
bike shop and I still have the same bearing cartridges so I'm guess
there's nothing major wrong. However, being an inquisitive (and worrysome)
sort of chap I've had a look at things and discovered that the ticking
sound appears to be slight movement of the top cover against the top cup;
I've removed the bearings and compression ring just to be sure and
replaced the top cover, moving it slightly produces the ticking. It would
appear to have nothing to do with movement/play at the bearings.

Interestingly I could hear the ticking when I locked the front brake and
rocked the bike but not when I pushed the front wheel against a wall and
pushed against the saddle, suggesting that it might be slight movement
through the stem and/or spacer stack or perhaps slight flexing in the
steel steerer.

I'm assuming therefore that there's nothing to worry about, would this be
fair or might there be something not quite right with the pressing of the
upper cup?

The head set is loose. Loosen stem clamp bolts. Snug down harder on the
top bolt to remove the play. Re-tighten clamp bolts. Click is gone. Riding
it loose will ruin the head set bearings.

Me

I'm not certain that the headset is loose, there's no play detectable at
either cup either when rocking the bike or riding it (and I'd imagine that a
loose headset would be easy to pick up on when riding). Everything feels
sound (I can't twist the upper cover or spacers by hand) and all the usual
tests for play at the lower cup don't show anything up. If I increase the
preload to try and sort out the ticking I'm likely to overdo the load on the
lower bearings.

The ticking appears to be slight contact between the upper cover and cup and
doesn't worsen as the forces increase (rocking the bike hard or breaking
hard with the front brake whilst riding at speed).
"me" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"PJay" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I'm a bit of a maintenance novice so apologies if this is basic stuff.

I've moved my stem and since readjusting the headset have noticed a
slight clicking sound when locking the front brake and rock the bike. I
have this issue several years ago when the bike was assembled for me by
my local bike shop and I still have the same bearing cartridges so I'm
guess there's nothing major wrong. However, being an inquisitive (and
worrysome) sort of chap I've had a look at things and discovered that the
ticking sound appears to be slight movement of the top cover against the
top cup; I've removed the bearings and compression ring just to be sure
and replaced the top cover, moving it slightly produces the ticking. It
would appear to have nothing to do with movement/play at the bearings.

Interestingly I could hear the ticking when I locked the front brake and
rocked the bike but not when I pushed the front wheel against a wall and
pushed against the saddle, suggesting that it might be slight movement
through the stem and/or spacer stack or perhaps slight flexing in the
steel steerer.

I'm assuming therefore that there's nothing to worry about, would this be
fair or might there be something not quite right with the pressing of the
upper cup?

The head set is loose. Loosen stem clamp bolts. Snug down harder on the
top bolt to remove the play. Re-tighten clamp bolts. Click is gone.
Riding it loose will ruin the head set bearings.

Me

"PJay" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I'm not certain that the headset is loose, there's no play detectable at
either cup either when rocking the bike or riding it (and I'd imagine that
a loose headset would be easy to pick up on when riding). Everything feels
sound (I can't twist the upper cover or spacers by hand) and all the usual
tests for play at the lower cup don't show anything up. If I increase the
preload to try and sort out the ticking I'm likely to overdo the load on
the lower bearings.

The ticking appears to be slight contact between the upper cover and cup
and doesn't worsen as the forces increase (rocking the bike hard or
breaking hard with the front brake whilst riding at speed).
"me" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"PJay" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I'm a bit of a maintenance novice so apologies if this is basic stuff.

I've moved my stem and since readjusting the headset have noticed a
slight clicking sound when locking the front brake and rock the bike. I
have this issue several years ago when the bike was assembled for me by
my local bike shop and I still have the same bearing cartridges so I'm
guess there's nothing major wrong. However, being an inquisitive (and
worrysome) sort of chap I've had a look at things and discovered that
the ticking sound appears to be slight movement of the top cover against
the top cup; I've removed the bearings and compression ring just to be
sure and replaced the top cover, moving it slightly produces the
ticking. It would appear to have nothing to do with movement/play at the
bearings.

Interestingly I could hear the ticking when I locked the front brake and
rocked the bike but not when I pushed the front wheel against a wall and
pushed against the saddle, suggesting that it might be slight movement
through the stem and/or spacer stack or perhaps slight flexing in the
steel steerer.

I'm assuming therefore that there's nothing to worry about, would this
be fair or might there be something not quite right with the pressing of
the upper cup?

The head set is loose. Loosen stem clamp bolts. Snug down harder on the
top bolt to remove the play. Re-tighten clamp bolts. Click is gone.
Riding it loose will ruin the head set bearings.

Me

Is it a standard or integrated headset?

Quoted message said:

The head set is loose. Loosen stem clamp bolts. Snug down harder on
the top bolt to remove the play. Re-tighten clamp bolts. Click is
gone. Riding it loose will ruin the head set bearings.

That's not entirely correct. You seem to imply that only riding it loose
will ruin the bearings when in fact, riding it tight will ruin the bearings
much faster.

--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

PJay said:

I'm a bit of a maintenance novice so apologies if this is basic stuff.

I've moved my stem and since readjusting the headset have noticed a
slight clicking sound when locking the front brake and rock the bike.

So there's forces on the headtube, fork, and brake that cause ticking. Look
for headset/fork/brake movement.

Quoted message said:

I have this issue several years ago when the bike was assembled for
me by my local bike shop and I still have the same bearing cartridges
so I'm guess there's nothing major wrong. However, being an
inquisitive (and worrysome) sort of chap I've had a look at things
and discovered that the ticking sound appears to be slight movement
of the top cover against the top cup;

Great. So if you can see translational movement when you hold the brake the
rock the bike, then that's play.

Quoted message said:

I've removed the bearings and
compression ring just to be sure and replaced the top cover, moving
it slightly produces the ticking.

With no bearings, the fork would flop around unreasonably. But if that
reproduces the ticking, then it appears that your cups are the culprit.

Quoted message said:

It would appear to have nothing to
do with movement/play at the bearings.
Interestingly I could hear the ticking when I locked the front brake
and rocked the bike but not when I pushed the front wheel against a
wall and pushed against the saddle, suggesting that it might be
slight movement through the stem and/or spacer stack

Not likely.

Your brake engaged causes the ticking, and the saddle push does not.
Consider the brake assembly to be a possible culprit, too. Check the brake
pads mountings, especially if they are disc brakes. The brake caliper
should also be tight on the bike. If you have v-brakes, squeeze them and
rock the bike. Also, place a stick in the spokes behind the fork and rock
the bike forward, essentially reproducing a rim brake force without
actuating the brakes. This is somewhat more reliable than the wall method
for excluding the brakes as a problem.

Quoted message said:

or perhaps
slight flexing in the steel steerer.

Also not likely. At 205GPa, the steel steerer wouldn't deform as much as
the headset assembly would move.

Quoted message said:

I'm assuming therefore that there's nothing to worry about, would
this be fair or might there be something not quite right with the
pressing of the upper cup?

Sounds like you've possibly pinpointed the problem. You give yourself less
credit than you deserve.

Have a bike shop press those cups into the frame further. That might be all
that's needed. If that doesn't do it, and if you have the tools to do so,
knock the cups out of the frame or have the bike shop do it. Grease the
inside of the headtube and press the cups back into the frame with a real
bike shop tool. Grease the outside of the cartridge bearings when you
install them, too.

If this doesn't do it, look for cracks in the frame all around the headtube.
If there are no cracks, you will likely have to just live with it. My
beat-to-[censored] MTB has a perpetual creak whose refaced/reamed/greased headtube
will always creak no matter what I do.
--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

It's a standard headset, a Cane Creek S2.

With the bearings removed and the top cover on I can get the same sort of
gentle ticking just by applying a small amount of pressure on the top cover
with my fingers so my guess is that the 'tick' is aluminium on aluminuim
contact between the cover and cup. When rocking the bike it might be that a
small amount of movement is transmitted through the space stack.

I have mentioned this to Cane Creek support and they say it's nothing to
worry about but I just thought I'd check.

"me" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"PJay" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I'm not certain that the headset is loose, there's no play detectable at
either cup either when rocking the bike or riding it (and I'd imagine
that a loose headset would be easy to pick up on when riding). Everything
feels sound (I can't twist the upper cover or spacers by hand) and all
the usual tests for play at the lower cup don't show anything up. If I
increase the preload to try and sort out the ticking I'm likely to overdo
the load on the lower bearings.

The ticking appears to be slight contact between the upper cover and cup
and doesn't worsen as the forces increase (rocking the bike hard or
breaking hard with the front brake whilst riding at speed).
"me" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"PJay" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> I'm a bit of a maintenance novice so apologies if this is basic stuff.
>
> I've moved my stem and since readjusting the headset have noticed a
> slight clicking sound when locking the front brake and rock the bike. I
> have this issue several years ago when the bike was assembled for me by
> my local bike shop and I still have the same bearing cartridges so I'm
> guess there's nothing major wrong. However, being an inquisitive (and
> worrysome) sort of chap I've had a look at things and discovered that
> the ticking sound appears to be slight movement of the top cover
> against the top cup; I've removed the bearings and compression ring
> just to be sure and replaced the top cover, moving it slightly produces
> the ticking. It would appear to have nothing to do with movement/play
> at the bearings.
>
> Interestingly I could hear the ticking when I locked the front brake
> and rocked the bike but not when I pushed the front wheel against a
> wall and pushed against the saddle, suggesting that it might be slight
> movement through the stem and/or spacer stack or perhaps slight flexing
> in the steel steerer.
>
> I'm assuming therefore that there's nothing to worry about, would this
> be fair or might there be something not quite right with the pressing
> of the upper cup?

The head set is loose. Loosen stem clamp bolts. Snug down harder on
the top bolt to remove the play. Re-tighten clamp bolts. Click is
gone. Riding it loose will ruin the head set bearings.

Me

Is it a standard or integrated headset?

Thanks Phil,

The cups were properly pressed by a professional mechanic, I assume, using
the correct press and I'm using the original bearing cartridges 2 1/2 years
later so I guess that nothing is majorly wrong. Perhaps I'm being overly
concerned. If I were to move my attention to other areas of the bike I'm
sure that I could locate other slight noises that I couldn't account for. If
the work was done by a bike shop I tend to assume it's right and any little
noises are fine whilst if I do any work I tend to assume it's wrong and any
little noises signs of impending (and possibly expensive) trouble, it's a
confidence things I guess. I once heard that a loose headset could ovalise
the headtube (and if my headsets loose then it's miniscule), a fact which
others have told me isn't the case, but I still tend to worry. Come to think
of it I regreased not bottom bracket a little while ago!

"Phil, Squid-in-Training" <[email hidden]> wrote in
message news:dQz5g.61296$gE.758@dukeread06...

Quoted message said:

PJay said:

I'm a bit of a maintenance novice so apologies if this is basic stuff.

I've moved my stem and since readjusting the headset have noticed a
slight clicking sound when locking the front brake and rock the bike.

So there's forces on the headtube, fork, and brake that cause ticking.
Look for headset/fork/brake movement.

Quoted message said:

I have this issue several years ago when the bike was assembled for
me by my local bike shop and I still have the same bearing cartridges
so I'm guess there's nothing major wrong. However, being an
inquisitive (and worrysome) sort of chap I've had a look at things
and discovered that the ticking sound appears to be slight movement
of the top cover against the top cup;

Great. So if you can see translational movement when you hold the brake
the rock the bike, then that's play.

Quoted message said:

I've removed the bearings and
compression ring just to be sure and replaced the top cover, moving
it slightly produces the ticking.

With no bearings, the fork would flop around unreasonably. But if that
reproduces the ticking, then it appears that your cups are the culprit.

Quoted message said:

It would appear to have nothing to
do with movement/play at the bearings.
Interestingly I could hear the ticking when I locked the front brake
and rocked the bike but not when I pushed the front wheel against a
wall and pushed against the saddle, suggesting that it might be
slight movement through the stem and/or spacer stack

Not likely.

Your brake engaged causes the ticking, and the saddle push does not.
Consider the brake assembly to be a possible culprit, too. Check the
brake pads mountings, especially if they are disc brakes. The brake
caliper should also be tight on the bike. If you have v-brakes, squeeze
them and rock the bike. Also, place a stick in the spokes behind the fork
and rock the bike forward, essentially reproducing a rim brake force
without actuating the brakes. This is somewhat more reliable than the
wall method for excluding the brakes as a problem.

Quoted message said:

or perhaps
slight flexing in the steel steerer.

Also not likely. At 205GPa, the steel steerer wouldn't deform as much as
the headset assembly would move.

Quoted message said:

I'm assuming therefore that there's nothing to worry about, would
this be fair or might there be something not quite right with the
pressing of the upper cup?

Sounds like you've possibly pinpointed the problem. You give yourself
less credit than you deserve.

Have a bike shop press those cups into the frame further. That might be
all that's needed. If that doesn't do it, and if you have the tools to do
so, knock the cups out of the frame or have the bike shop do it. Grease
the inside of the headtube and press the cups back into the frame with a
real bike shop tool. Grease the outside of the cartridge bearings when
you install them, too.

If this doesn't do it, look for cracks in the frame all around the
headtube. If there are no cracks, you will likely have to just live with
it. My beat-to-[censored] MTB has a perpetual creak whose
refaced/reamed/greased headtube will always creak no matter what I do.
--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

Oh well, I give up.

I've removed the fork (do easy without a bike stand!) cleaned and regreased
the lot and check that the cups are firm (good job as I tended to catch the
upper cup replacing the fork) and reassembled and my little click is still
there when I apply the front brake and lightly rock the bike, but absolutely
no play can be felt.

As another test I pushed the front wheel into a wall, sat on the bike and
bounced my body weight on the pedals (I thought that this would be a good
way to test for play) and not a tick was heard (and absolutely no play at
either cup) so I'm confused. I was sure that it was the upper cover moving
against the upper cup but I think I'm just going to have to put it down to
one of those elusive sounds that 'sounds' like it's coming from the upper
cup (like one of those sounds that appears to be coming from the BB and
turns out to be your shoe laces catching the cranks). The odd thing is that
if I dial in a lot of extra preload on the headset I can stop the ticking
(and probably mash my bearings).

"PJay" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I'm a bit of a maintenance novice so apologies if this is basic stuff.

I've moved my stem and since readjusting the headset have noticed a slight
clicking sound when locking the front brake and rock the bike. I have this
issue several years ago when the bike was assembled for me by my local
bike shop and I still have the same bearing cartridges so I'm guess
there's nothing major wrong. However, being an inquisitive (and worrysome)
sort of chap I've had a look at things and discovered that the ticking
sound appears to be slight movement of the top cover against the top cup;
I've removed the bearings and compression ring just to be sure and
replaced the top cover, moving it slightly produces the ticking. It would
appear to have nothing to do with movement/play at the bearings.

Interestingly I could hear the ticking when I locked the front brake and
rocked the bike but not when I pushed the front wheel against a wall and
pushed against the saddle, suggesting that it might be slight movement
through the stem and/or spacer stack or perhaps slight flexing in the
steel steerer.

I'm assuming therefore that there's nothing to worry about, would this be
fair or might there be something not quite right with the pressing of the
upper cup?

Top posted but oh well ...

If extra torque quiets it, then there is likely a subtle amount of play.
You might use a torque wrench to verify your wrist-measured torque to Cane
Creek specs. The Squid correctly noted that too tight is as bad as too
loose. YMMV.

"PJay" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Oh well, I give up.

I've removed the fork (do easy without a bike stand!) cleaned and
regreased the lot and check that the cups are firm (good job as I tended
to catch the upper cup replacing the fork) and reassembled and my little
click is still there when I apply the front brake and lightly rock the
bike, but absolutely no play can be felt.

As another test I pushed the front wheel into a wall, sat on the bike and
bounced my body weight on the pedals (I thought that this would be a good
way to test for play) and not a tick was heard (and absolutely no play at
either cup) so I'm confused. I was sure that it was the upper cover moving
against the upper cup but I think I'm just going to have to put it down to
one of those elusive sounds that 'sounds' like it's coming from the upper
cup (like one of those sounds that appears to be coming from the BB and
turns out to be your shoe laces catching the cranks). The odd thing is
that if I dial in a lot of extra preload on the headset I can stop the
ticking (and probably mash my bearings).

"PJay" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I'm a bit of a maintenance novice so apologies if this is basic stuff.

I've moved my stem and since readjusting the headset have noticed a
slight clicking sound when locking the front brake and rock the bike. I
have this issue several years ago when the bike was assembled for me by
my local bike shop and I still have the same bearing cartridges so I'm
guess there's nothing major wrong. However, being an inquisitive (and
worrysome) sort of chap I've had a look at things and discovered that the
ticking sound appears to be slight movement of the top cover against the
top cup; I've removed the bearings and compression ring just to be sure
and replaced the top cover, moving it slightly produces the ticking. It
would appear to have nothing to do with movement/play at the bearings.

Interestingly I could hear the ticking when I locked the front brake and
rocked the bike but not when I pushed the front wheel against a wall and
pushed against the saddle, suggesting that it might be slight movement
through the stem and/or spacer stack or perhaps slight flexing in the
steel steerer.

I'm assuming therefore that there's nothing to worry about, would this be
fair or might there be something not quite right with the pressing of the
upper cup?