Surgery without blood?

In said:

I'm not sure what you're getting at; unless I'm quite mistaken, Jehovah's
Witnesses only object to blood transfusion for themselves, not for non-
believers. Much like the way that observant Jews believe that eating pork
is something that God placed off-limits to them, but not to others.
Aside from some sticky situations involving their own children, I don't see
why that's something to get all up in arms about.

Let's give credit where due. The JW have a problem: their
theology sometimes comes into conflict with preserving life.
To their credit, they've been supporting research into blood
substitutes and bloodless surgery since long before the
current concern for blood- borne diseases. Thanks to them,
when the rest of us suddenly discovered that transfusions
aren't all that great an idea (Arthur Ashe, anyone?) the
field was already well-established.

--
| Microsoft: "A reputation for releasing inferior software will make |
| it more difficult for a software vendor to induce customers to pay |
| for new products or new versions of existing products." |
end

"gramps",

How many years did you serve in the military?
I served nine.
The US recognizes me as a decorated and honorably discharged veteran.
I think it's fair to say that I have done my part in securing the freedoms of this country.

BTW those freedoms include the right for people to worship as they see fit. Why would you be against that? Why would you want to take away that freedom and condemn anyone for exercising the very freedom that you say they have? Conditional freedom? That smacks a bit of hypocracy to me.

Why do you say that witnesses do not lift a finger?
We strongly uphold the paying of our taxes.
We support our neighbors when there is an emergency both spiritually as well as materially.
We spend our time and resources helping people to find comfort and hope in God's word the Bible.
We strive to be positive, encouraging and upbuilding to all that we come in contact with.
We contribute much to society as honest, and upstanding citizens.

I know many americans who are not witnesses and live in other countries. They don't enlist in the foriegn countries military or political forces. They don't sing songs or pledge allegiances to those foriegn flags and powers. Does that mean they are somehow less than ideal citizens? I will provide all the financial and material support that any country I live in demands. But if you ask me to pick up a weapon and risk killing a my brother or sister simply because you have problems with your neighbor and can not work them out I must say no.

Say what you will but the fact is that Jehovah's witnesses are able to live peacefully in all lands of the world. Our neutral stance has allowed us to be free from any nationalistic or patriotic insurgencies and we are able to hold our heads up high knowing that we have honored and upheld the command of our King, Jesus Christ, to love our fellow man.

Terry/Anti said:

Six including active and inactive reserve. During the nine years that you
served, were you a JW? I know there are JWs in the service. I have a
daughter who is an officer in the Navy. She tells me that some people
convert while in service. Then want to get out. They have to determine how
sincere they are and decide whether to give them a discharge or not. As for
the JWs trying to convert service people, I would consider them subversives
or traitors.

I did my 3 and got out.

AFAIAC, any JW thast looks to convert service people, or anyone, should
be able to do so, as it is part of their religion.

HOWEVER, when they approach my kids, as two did and are told, by me,
that they are out of bounds, and then come back later when I go into my
home, and try it again, they have developed a rather serious problem.

Fortunately, a neighbor intervened and convinced them that leaving
quietly was the wisest course of action.

"gramps"

Obviously I was not a witness during my military years.
In fact it was because of my bible studies that I left the service.
The issues on neutrality were for me obvious and indisputable.
As a conscientious objector I could no longer commit myself to military service.

Your daughter is correct. The military does employ an aggressive and rigorous examination when one files for conscientious objector status. I guarantee you that only one who is firmly resolved and can indisputably justify his belief will be granted release.

As for your considerations of subversives and traitors, you may call them what you like but the law and the constitution grants everyone the right to freedom of speech and worship.

And FWIW, I firmly believe nobody can force another to convert. That is a process that can only come from within. I became a witness because I studied the scriptures thoroughly and truly believe that these people are worshiping God in the manner set forth by Jesus.

"BearMan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
"gramps"

Obviously I was not a witness during my military years.
In fact it was because of my bible studies that I left the service.
The issues on neutrality were for me obvious and indisputable.
As a conscientious objector I could no longer commit myself to military
service.

Your daughter is correct. The military does employ an aggressive and
rigorous examination when one files for conscientious objector status. I
guarantee you that only one who is firmly resolved and can indisputably
justify his belief will be granted release.

As for your considerations of subversives and traitors, you may call them
what you like but the law and the constitution grants everyone the right to
freedom of speech and worship.

And FWIW, I firmly believe nobody can force another to convert. That is a
process that can only come from within. I became a witness because I studied
the scriptures thoroughly and truly believe that these people are worshiping
God in the manner set forth by Jesus.

By converting trained military personal into concientious objectors they are
destroying government propery. They did tell you you were government
property when you were in, didn't they? I would judge that to be saotage
and thus treason.

Gramps
Move the @ ahead of hot to email me.

"Terry/Anti" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"BearMan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
"gramps"

Obviously I was not a witness during my military years.
In fact it was because of my bible studies that I left the service.
The issues on neutrality were for me obvious and indisputable.
As a conscientious objector I could no longer commit myself to military
service.

Your daughter is correct. The military does employ an aggressive and
rigorous examination when one files for conscientious objector status. I
guarantee you that only one who is firmly resolved and can indisputably
justify his belief will be granted release.

As for your considerations of subversives and traitors, you may call them
what you like but the law and the constitution grants everyone the right

to

Quoted message said:

freedom of speech and worship.

And FWIW, I firmly believe nobody can force another to convert. That is a
process that can only come from within. I became a witness because I

studied

Quoted message said:

the scriptures thoroughly and truly believe that these people are

worshiping

Quoted message said:

God in the manner set forth by Jesus.

By converting trained military personal into concientious objectors they

are

Quoted message said:

destroying government propery. They did tell you you were government
property when you were in, didn't they? I would judge that to be saotage
and thus treason.

Gramps
Move the @ ahead of hot to email me.

Seems to me this has gone way off topic.

As it has, let me tell you a little story - and believe me I tell it because
I think it's funny, NOT because I want to have a pop at anybody......and
because it's about time this NG got back on track.

Joe was catching a ball game on TV when a JW knocked on his door.

Joe answered and the JW immediately launched into the prepared "script".

Joe Invited him in and asked him to take a seat.

JW accepted the offer with some surprise.

Joe asked JW if he would like a beer and a small snack.

Because it had been a long and unsuccesful day, JW gratefully accepted.

After a few moments Joe said to JW "Well, buddy, what exactly is it that
you've called to talk to me about?"

JW thought for a moment and replied "Well, actually, I don't know - I've
never got this far before!"

I about fell out of my seat when I read that gramps.
That has to be the funniest thing I ever heard.
What do you think the military does when they send those troops out into battle?
Those troops are trained to destroy or be destroyed.

How do you contrast that with a troop deciding to live a life of godly devotion?
That's some pretty strange logic there gramps.

Last time I checked, the military was a volunteer service that means I am only government property as long as I choose to be. Once I choose not to be then I am a free agent.

A troop killed is better off than a troop who decides to live a spiritual life.
Which do you think the families that lost their loved ones in Iraq would prefer if the choice was available? A dead soldier serving his country? Or a live son pursuing a life of spiritual enlightenment? This is not a rhetorical question. I truly would like an answer.

[A tiny little dwarf appears from behind a rock and throws a knife.......it misses!]

Quoted message said:

_

"Terry/Anti" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

By converting trained military personal into concientious objectors they are
destroying government propery. They did tell you you were government
property when you were in, didn't they? I would judge that to be saotage
and thus treason.

Gramps
Move the @ ahead of hot to email me.

In the last chapter: BearMan picked up the keyboard and pecked out:
:
: How many years did you serve in the military?
: I served nine.
: The US recognizes me as a decorated and honorably discharged
: veteran.
: I think it's fair to say that I have done my part in securing the
: freedoms of this country.

** And you were and are a Jehovah's Witness? Then I say it's about time
they *all* serve. If they don't want to kill they can serve in other
capacities such as mechanics, medics etc.

: BTW those freedoms include the right for people to worship as they
: see fit. Why would you be against that?

** What if every religion decided they wouldn't serve and protect their
country? Do we just open all borders and kiss the USA goodbye as other
nations come in and take over?

Why would you want to take
: away that freedom and condemn anyone for exercising the very
: freedom that you say they have? Conditional freedom? That smacks a
: bit of hypocracy to me.

** It's also hypocritical to be anti-war after reading the Old testament.
It's filled with nothing but wars, murder, killing and one blood bath after
another - all condoned by their god Jehovah. Have you read it?
:
: Why do you say that witnesses do not lift a finger?
: We strongly uphold the paying of our taxes.

** The WT does not pay one dime in taxes, forcing others to pay MORE to
cover what they do not pay. What happened to "Pay unto Caesar what is
Caesars?" Talk about hypocrites!

: We support our neighbors when there is an emergency both
: spiritually as well as materially.

** Since when? You only support OTHER JWs, almost never non-JWs.

: We spend our time and resources helping people to find comfort and
: hope in God's word the Bible.

** Comfort and hope? By telling them of the mass slaughter this Jehovah has
on store for them unless they convert to the Watchtower Publishing House
religion? Been there, saw it all.....

: We strive to be positive, encouraging and upbuilding to all that we
: come in contact with.

** What's so up about this coming butchery, blood-bath, destruction on all
non-JWs, disfellowshipping, shunning and the break-up of families, marriages
and old friendships?

: We contribute much to society as honest, and upstanding citizens.

** So are 99% of other people upstanding citizens, and are a lot less
hypocritical than the JWs.
:
: I know many americans who are not witnesses and live in other
: countries. They don't enlist in the foriegn countries military or
: political forces.

** No one expects American JWs or non-JWs to join foreign forces - why
should they?

They don't sing songs or pledge allegiances to
: those foriegn flags and powers. Does that mean they are somehow
: less than ideal citizens? I will provide all the financial and
: material support that any country I live in demands. But if you ask
: me to pick up a weapon and risk killing a my brother or sister
: simply because you have problems with your neighbor and can not
: work them out I must say no.

** Try reading the Old Testament. Pay particular attention to all the god
sanctioned wars, slaughters, genocide and more....
:
: Say what you will but the fact is that Jehovah's witnesses are able
: to live peacefully in all lands of the world.

** So do other Americans. What makes you think that applies to only JWs?

Our neutral stance
: has allowed us to be free from any nationalistic or patriotic
: insurgencies and we are able to hold our heads up high knowing that
: we have honored and upheld the command of our King, Jesus Christ,
: to love our fellow man.

** Try reading the Old Testament. Pay particular attention to all the god
sanctioned wars, slaughters, genocide and more.... see below. Your god
loved war, slaughter and killing,.. even the slaughter of babies and little
children.

--
Carol McLaughlin......
For more Stephen King type stories of murder and mayhem in
your Bible, see:
JG 21:10 and on...God tells them to go slaughter everyone in
Jabesh-gilead.
Also all the women and little ones. Every man and non virgin
are to be killed.
After this bloodbath approved by God they take 400 young virgins
for their own use (to RAPE and SEXUALLY ABUSE).

What a loving, kind and forgiving God.
~~~><> ~~~><> ~~~><> ~~~><> ~~~><> ~~~><>

In the last chapter: BearMan picked up the keyboard and pecked out:
: "gramps"
:
: Obviously I was not a witness during my military years.
: In fact it was because of my bible studies that I left the service.
: The issues on neutrality were for me obvious and indisputable.
: As a conscientious objector I could no longer commit myself to
: military service.

** Try reading the old Testament and you'll see how Jehovah looked at wars,
including genocide.

: Your daughter is correct. The military does employ an aggressive
: and rigorous examination when one files for conscientious objector
: status. I guarantee you that only one who is firmly resolved and
: can indisputably justify his belief will be granted release.

** Why not serve, but in some other capacity as my catholic Uncle did in
WWII? He worked in an office in Maine. He was not required to carry a gun
or kill the enemy (those trying to kill him). I guess you feel it's ok for
someone like a [censored] to come along and wipe other people off the face of
the earth as he did with the Jews. What would the JWs do? Stand there and
just watch?

: As for your considerations of subversives and traitors, you may
: call them what you like but the law and the constitution grants
: everyone the right to freedom of speech and worship.

** Read the Old testament....... your Jehovah thrived on wars and
slaughter.
:
: And FWIW, I firmly believe nobody can force another to convert.
: That is a process that can only come from within. I became a
: witness because I studied the scriptures thoroughly and truly
: believe that these people are worshiping God in the manner set
: forth by Jesus.

** How did you miss reading the whole Old Testament cover to cover?
--
Carol McLaughlin......
For more Stephen King type stories of murder and mayhem in
your Bible, see:
JG 21:10 and on...God tells them to go slaughter everyone in
Jabesh-gilead.
Also all the women and little ones. Every man and non virgin
are to be killed.
After this bloodbath approved by God they take 400 young virgins
for their own use (to RAPE and SEXUALLY ABUSE).

What a loving, kind and forgiving God.
~~~><> ~~~><> ~~~><> ~~~><> ~~~><> ~~~><>

In the last chapter: BearMan picked up the keyboard and pecked out:
: I about fell out of my seat when I read that gramps.
: That has to be the funniest thing I ever heard.
: What do you think the military does when they send those troops out
: into battle?
: Those troops are trained to destroy or be destroyed.

** Right! Just like the ancient Hebrews Jehovah sent out to slaughter,
kill, rape and kidnap other peoples.

: How do you contrast that with a troop deciding to live a life of
: godly devotion?
: That's some pretty strange logic there gramps.

** You need to read the OT! The JWs seem to skip most of the wars and
slaughters sanctioned by their god.

: Last time I checked, the military was a volunteer service that
: means I am only government property as long as I choose to be. Once
: I choose not to be then I am a free agent.

** And I bet you stay in America where you ass is well protected by those
who care.
:
: A troop killed is better off than a troop who decides to live a
: spiritual life.
: Which do you think the families that lost their loved ones in Iraq
: would prefer if the choice was available? A dead soldier serving
: his country? Or a live son pursuing a life of spiritual
: enlightenment? This is not a rhetorical question. I truly would
: like an answer.

** And who would protect and serve if all suddenly rejected the Old
Testament and refused to do their part? Read about your Jehovah and all the
wars, killings and kidnapping of young virgins.
--
Carol McLaughlin......
For more Stephen King type stories of murder and mayhem in
your Bible, see:
JG 21:10 and on...God tells them to go slaughter everyone in
Jabesh-gilead.
Also all the women and little ones. Every man and non virgin
are to be killed.
After this bloodbath approved by God they take 400 young virgins
for their own use (to RAPE and SEXUALLY ABUSE).

What a loving, kind and forgiving God.
~~~><> ~~~><> ~~~><> ~~~><> ~~~><> ~~~><>

:
:

BearMan wrote:

Snip

Quoted message said:

As a conscientious objector I could no longer commit myself to military service.

Snip

Fix your line wrap.

My unit in RVN was blessed with a CO who was our combat medic. He was
1000% reliable, and NO ONE ever made a disparaging remark about his CO
status.

He was awarded the Silver Star, and I attended the ceremony where his
parents received it.

"BearMan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
I about fell out of my seat when I read that gramps.
That has to be the funniest thing I ever heard.
What do you think the military does when they send those troops out into
battle?
Those troops are trained to destroy or be destroyed.

What's your point? You don't have to go through basic training to know
that.

How do you contrast that with a troop deciding to live a life of godly
devotion?
That's some pretty strange logic there gramps.

I'm don't follow what your point is.

Last time I checked, the military was a volunteer service that means I am
only government property as long as I choose to be. Once I choose not to be
then I am a free agent.

When I was drafted I didn't choose to be government property and there was
no honorable way to choose not to be.

A troop killed is better off than a troop who decides to live a spiritual
life.
Which do you think the families that lost their loved ones in Iraq would
prefer if the choice was available? A dead soldier serving his country? Or a
live son pursuing a life of spiritual enlightenment? This is not a
rhetorical question. I truly would like an answer.

No body can be happy about loosing a son or daughter in a war. By the same
token, relatives of all the non military people who loose their lives
because of dictators like [censored] and Sadam have to be in the same position.

[A tiny little dwarf appears from behind a rock and throws a knife.......it
misses!]

Quoted message said:

_

?

Terry

"Terry/Anti" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

By converting trained military personal into concientious objectors they

are

Quoted message said:

destroying government propery. They did tell you you were government
property when you were in, didn't they? I would judge that to be saotage
and thus treason.

Gramps
Move the @ ahead of hot to email me.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Why do you say that witnesses do not lift a finger?

1. They don't believe in getting involved in any civic groups, or commitees
2. They won't serve on any school boards.
3. They won't do any charity work
4. They don't vote.
5. They wont defend liberty
6. Their buildings don't complement or beautify the community. They are
always cheap looking..

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

We support our neighbors when there is an emergency both spiritually as

well as materially.
Never seen this one..

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

We spend our time and resources helping people to find comfort and hope in

God's word the Bible.
Only your own.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

We strive to be positive, encouraging and upbuilding to all that we come

in contact with.
Never met a positive JW. They seem to me to be very negative and filled with
hate for anyone that doesnt agree.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

We contribute much to society as honest, and upstanding citizens.

In what way? Ive NEVER seen one ounce of this..

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Our neutral stance has allowed us to be free from any nationalistic or

patriotic insurgencies and we are able to hold our heads up >>high knowing
that we have honored and upheld the command of our King, Jesus Christ, to
love our fellow man.
Most of the countries you go into, you go in through the back door. This is
why so many countries oppose you.

Russell never founded any ruling organization such as the JWs have, he did
not believe in such an organization, and preached against the formation of
such an organization until the day he died. He never knew anything of a
"Jehovah's Witnesses" organization or movement. After Russell died, Joseph
Rutherford took some of Russell's teachings, but he rejected the central
teachings of Russell, that is, especially pertaining to the "ransom for
all", church organization, and Israel. Rutherford used trickery to use the
WTS to form his new organization, and basically started teaching that if
anyone disagreed with him [that is, if anyone disagreed with Rutherford],
they could go into the second death. The Bible Students movement became a
separate movement from the WTS.
http://reslight.addr.com/l-russell.html

Russell never prohibited blood transfusions nor organ transplants; nor do
Bible Students today. Russell never forced this teaching on his followers,
for he did not believe this teaching. (Indeed, he did not force any teaching
on his supposed followers, but constantly encouraged all to accept or reject
based on the scriptures and their own development and understanding.)
Nevertheless, the "no blood transfusion" doctrine did not originate with
Russell. The Watchtower leaders adopted the "no blood transfusion" doctrine
long after Russell died.
http://reslight.addr.com/bloodtransfusions.html

Agape love,
Ronald

" ~ . * .¤. * .~" [email hidden]> wrote in message It's
been said he was an alcoholic who never could keep a job, a pedophile

Quoted message said:

who liked little girls, and a carnival worker... take your pick.

So much is "said" about Charles Taze Russell. Because this or that is
"said" does not mean it is the truth. And he is in good company.
Luke 7:34 - The Son of Man has come eating and drinking, and you say,
'Behold, a gluttonous man, and a drunkard; a friend of tax collectors and
sinners!'

For more about Russell, see:
http://reslight.addr.com/l-russell.html

Agape love,
Ronald

--

"Frank" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Fair enough, but what about the JW's now? They still twist doctrine to

thier

Quoted message said:

liking. They are still shallow and hate anyone that rejects the message of
the JW's.

The word "they," followed by a generalized negative statement about an
identified group of people, is the pronouncement of a bigot. You, sir, are a
bigot.

--Rich --> I'm a Jehovah's Bystander. I don't want to get involved.

Stephen Andrewartha <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:3f1b4e79$1@cicada:

Quoted message said:

Rich Shewmaker said:

--

"Frank" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Fair enough, but what about the JW's now? They still twist doctrine to

thier

Quoted message said:

liking. They are still shallow and hate anyone that rejects the message
of the JW's.

The word "they," followed by a generalized negative statement about an
identified group of people, is the pronouncement of a bigot. You, sir,
are a bigot.

And he's wrong as well. I've openly confessed my atheist leanings to
some JWs, and regularly challenge some aspect of their beliefs. The
fact they continue to visit me and treat me in friendly manner is
testament to my claim that they don't hate me.

Stephen.

I have more fun with JWs and their belief system. I apply pure logic to poke
holes in their belief system and when I am done, their arguments blow away
like a puff of dust. One day I might even make a convert.

r

--
"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from
magic."

Arthur C. Clarke (1917 - ), "Technology and the Future"

Rich Andrews <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

I have more fun with JWs and their belief system. I apply pure logic to poke
holes in their belief system and when I am done, their arguments blow away
like a puff of dust. One day I might even make a convert.

Don't hold your breath. You cannot defeat faith with logic.

Stephen.

Rich Shewmaker said:

The word "they," followed by a generalized negative statement about an
identified group of people, is the pronouncement of a bigot. You, sir, are a
bigot.

That's a mighty broad brush that you paint with.

Does this apply if I make a negative statement about convicted serial
killers?