Larry's kicking challenge

Thnx, Ross. I've had a couple of additional private replies with k/s ratios around 1.5, also from
fast swimmers (I include you in that group).

Am I the ONLY k/s 2.0 sea slug on rss?

Larry Weisenthal

Certitude is poison; curiosity is life

In Larry Weisenthal said:

Am I the ONLY k/s 2.0 sea slug on rss?

I doubt it, if only because of all the people who say they go backwards when they kick.

I was wondering whether my numbers were a bit deceptive. While pushing a kickboard, all of my effort
was going into my kick. While swimming, I noticed that most of my effort was going into my arms and
torso, and much less was going to my kick. So it's not correct to say that my arm- only effort + my
kick-only effort = my combined effort.

Ross

(Larry Weisenthal) said:

Thnx, Ross. I've had a couple of additional private replies with k/s ratios around 1.5, also from
fast swimmers (I include you in that group).

Am I the ONLY k/s 2.0 sea slug on rss?

I'm sure I'm way way way past that, Haven't had a chance to swim teh test as teh pool is
closed this week for cleaning. Hopefully open again on Sunday I'll see what I come up with.
Like I said earlier I bet I'm at least 3.5-4:1 ratio. I have no kick and no kicking
endurance to top that.

~Matt

Quoted message said:

Larry Weisenthal

Certitude is poison; curiosity is life

Ross Bogue said:

In Larry Weisenthal said:

Am I the ONLY k/s 2.0 sea slug on rss?

I doubt it, if only because of all the people who say they go backwards when they kick.

I was wondering whether my numbers were a bit deceptive. While pushing a kickboard, all of my
effort was going into my kick. While swimming, I noticed that most of my effort was going into my
arms and torso, and much less was going to my kick. So it's not correct to say that my arm- only
effort + my kick-only effort = my combined effort.

What about a pull set?

~Matt

Quoted message said:

Ross

Larry W. said:

"Am I the ONLY k/s 2.0 sea slug on rss?"

Well, I'm close to your age (57, soon to be 58), probably not as close to your swimming ability
and fitness level (on average these days I try for a total of 3000 yards per day per workout,
usually done in intervals). My background in competitive swimming was in the 60's (pre-goggle
era) where I swam (mainly sprint freestyle 50's, 100's, an occasional 200, and relays) both in
high school and first couple of years in college (had to give it up when academic load was too
heavy). Despite giving up on the competitive career years ago I've continued swimming to this
day and all I can seem to manage in the way of a k/s ratio is about 1.8 to 2.0, so you're not
alone. :-)

Steve Curtis

In MJuric said:

What about a pull set?

Since you asked, I timed a couple today:

1200 warm-up (easy) 2 min rest 50 pull-buoy (all-out) 0:33 2 min rest 100 pull-buoy (hard) 1:09

Those are almost the same as my full-stroke times last Friday. Any differences could be attributed
to the church potluck yesterday. :-)

Ross

Ross Bogue said:

In MJuric said:

What about a pull set?

Since you asked, I timed a couple today:

1200 warm-up (easy) 2 min rest 50 pull-buoy (all-out) 0:33 2 min rest 100 pull-buoy (hard) 1:09

Those are almost the same as my full-stroke times last Friday. Any differences could be attributed
to the church potluck yesterday. :-)

An interesting article I read actually stated that the kick adds little to no thrust to
stroke. I'm not sure were I read it right now. It makes sense from a physical point of view.
The example was that of a car. th front wheels drove at 50 miles an hour adn the rear wheels
coudl only drive at thirty. The rear wheels would never add speed. The only time your kick
woudl add speed woudl be at a time when your actual speed feel below the speed of your
kicking speed. For me that is never as my kick really sucks. I suspect for most that the
sustained swimming speed is rarely slowly than their kick. The only cases I can think of is
if someone had a very speedy kick and took very long gliding, thus slowed down
significantly, strokes.

~Matt

Quoted message said:

Ross

OK:

500 Crawl 1000 Back For some reason the Stroke Monitor won't record long Back swims. It records 1500
Crawl, but only 500 Back.

50 Kick 1:22.74 50 Crawl 36.87 20 etc

I didn't rest all that much between swims. I started to cramp trying to kick 100.

ratio is 2.24

Donal Fagan AIA Donal@DonalO'Fagan.com (Anglicise the name to reply by e-mail)

"Larry Weisenthal" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
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Quoted message said:

Thnx, Ross. I've had a couple of additional private replies with k/s

ratios

Quoted message said:

around 1.5, also from fast swimmers (I include you in that group).

Am I the ONLY k/s 2.0 sea slug on rss?

You're not the only slug.

I put off doing this because I knew it would be ugly -- and I only did it for the 50 because I don't
think I could have finished 100 yards kick-only. (My excuse is I was kicking without a kickboard.)

kick-only: 1:09 (close to all-out effort) full-stroke: 31 (could have gone faster)
2.23 (the definition of sea slug)

This goes a long way toward explaining why the longer the distance, the better I swim in comparison
to my peers. This also explains why I used to sit on the bottom of the pool in the deep end awaiting
the end of the kick sets we were supposed to be doing in my high school practices.

-- Mark (small feet, high arches, distance runner)

I finally got around to doing this, and got results that surprised me a little. I consider myself a
poor kicker, although I do kick hard for sprints. Anything longer than 100yds, and my legs just
don't do much. I'm one of those people who gets a real advantage from a wetsuit.

50 kick: 53.2 50 free: 30.2 100 kick: 2:08.9 100 free: 1:05.9

Ratio for 50: 1.76 Ratio for 100: 1.96

Over 100, I definitely would have been in the 2+ range.

What surprised me is that I thought I would be around 2 even at the shorter distance. Maybe I should
be doing some kicking sets in my workouts after all . . . .

Mark Miller said:

"Larry Weisenthal" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
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Quoted message said:

Thnx, Ross. I've had a couple of additional private replies with k/s

ratios

Quoted message said:

around 1.5, also from fast swimmers (I include you in that group).

Am I the ONLY k/s 2.0 sea slug on rss?

You're not the only slug.

I put off doing this because I knew it would be ugly -- and I only did it for the 50 because I
don't think I could have finished 100 yards kick-only. (My excuse is I was kicking without a
kickboard.)

kick-only: 1:09 (close to all-out effort) full-stroke: 31 (could have gone faster)
2.23 (the definition of sea slug)

This goes a long way toward explaining why the longer the distance, the better I swim in
comparison to my peers. This also explains why I used to sit on the bottom of the pool in the deep
end awaiting the end of the kick sets we were supposed to be doing in my high school practices.

-- Mark (small feet, high arches, distance runner)

I also put this excercise off though it had more to do with our pool closure and a couple weeks of
holidays before that. This also means that it's been ~ 9 weeks since I did anything of note in the
pool. I thought it'd be an interesting dimensionless value to track through 'getting back in shape'.
I must note though that I should be considered an anomaly - my fly kick is much faster then my free
kick. Also our pool is scm and turns are a strong point while (esp just now) fitness is, ummm, well
isn't 😉. Anyway - numbers:

50fr kick (w/ board, sharp drop off lat 10-12m. I hurt.): 52 50fr swim (hard to be precise, but prob
good to within a second): 28
k/s ratio: 1.857

Just for kicks (;p) I swam a little warm down & tried the test fly & back as well:

50bk kick (w/ flip turn, minimal dolphin): 47 50bk swim (legs def hurting at this point): 35ish
l/s ratio: 1.342

50fly kick (no board, no pulls, br every 4): 37 50fly swim (omg. pain. waay too much for a
first day): 33
m/s ratio: 1.121

A thought - We've talked alot about the current cream of the crop but what about (my one great hope)
Giorgio Lamberti? If one can hold the 200fr world records for a decade without kicking there might
just be hope for me yet 😉

--Mike

Quoted message said:

A thought - We've talked alot about the current cream of the crop but what about (my one great
hope) Giorgio Lamberti? If one can hold the 200fr world records for a decade without kicking there
might just be hope for me yet 😉

Hi Mike,

I just composed a long post and then hit the tab key, or shift, and the whole thing went kaput!

Anyways, I won't be so verbose this time. First of all, 28 seconds for 50 meters ... I wouldn't
change a thing about the way you swim.

Second, the 200m race is a well known "cross-over" distance on the men's side. Lots of different
styles employed. You can check it all out on Donald Graft's website if interested.

Daniel Kowalski of Australia is probably the best 200m man with almost no kick. He kicks exactly
once with his left leg (I'm not kidding). On his right side, he kicks down ever so slightly with his
right leg before doing a kind of body dolphin. Sure looks like he's pulling up his legs with the
muscles in his lower back, as there's no other way to keep his legs elevated since he's not kicking.

Incidentally, like most things in swimming, it's pretty hard to find something totally unique at
the elite level. Brooke Bennett has a similar "body dolphin" as Kowalski in some of her swim
sequences on video.

Then there's the Italian 200m I.M. champion, Rossolini, who uses a traditional four beat: three
beats on the non-breathing side, and one downbeat on the breathing side. However, Rossolini is
completely unique, (as far as I know) in that he gets the three beats on his non-breathing side from
the SAME LEG. That is, downbeat, violent upbeat, and then downbeat.

And there's a number of swimmers who use textbook cross-over pattern. Big downbeat at the end of the
arm pull, and then their legs actually cross over and smack each other before pulling apart for the
big kick on the opposite side.

one of my favorite videos on Donald Graft's site is the one of the 200m race from Sydney. Rossolini
is in the foreground doing his unique thing, Ian Thorpe hammering next to him with those big
flexible feet of his, and therefore swimming nearly catch up stroke, and then two swimmers in the
background using two beat cross-overs.

I've talked about kicking exclusively, but of course the usual, different arm movements go along
with the different styles. For example, Kowalski's arm enters the water already quite bent at the
elbow. He immediately dives for depth so he can start pulling on the water since he won't maintain
momentum in the absence of any kicking. And as another side, it's certainly not a mystery why both
he and Brooke Bennett had shoulder surgery. You can practically feel the shoulder impingement as
they throw their elbow up high and out at the start of their stroke so they get their forearm and
hand pointing at the bottom of the pool as soon as possible.

There are probably other good examples of great 200m men and women who use attenuted kicking
patterns, but these are the ones I can think of.

Eric