Boots

Bitstring <[email hidden]>, from the wonderful
person Doki <[email hidden]> said

Quoted message said:

I'm after a pair of walking boots. I used to go hiking as a kid, and always
used to have what I would call "proper" boots - brown leather, rubber sole
and no goretex or other "breathable" membranes. However, it seems that most
of the boots on sale in the shops have bits of suede and nylon, and almost
invariably a waterproof membrane, and some sort of foam rubber in the sole,
which always disintegrates on trainers that I've had. This makes me very
suspiscious, as I've yet to encounter a jacket that's both waterproof and
breathable enough for me to wear whilst riding a bike without boiling in the
bag, and I remember goretex jackets 12 years ago or so not being brilliant
either.

So, following that massive preamble: Are these new style boots any good?
Does the breathable bit actually breath? Do they actually last - I'll be
walking mostly around the dark peak (or, if they last half as long as normal
boots, are 2 pairs cheaper)? If not, can anyone recommend a pair of leather
boots, preferably with a sticky Vibram sole as I fall over a lot, and as
cheap as possible?

Both Scarpa and Meindl still make 'real leather, no membrane' boots with
(mostly) Vibram soles, although they're expensive. High Tech makes some
too, but the sole isn't Vibram, and not as sticky. Brasher may do, but
they're off my shopping list, based on some recent cr&p products.

The suede and nylon is impossible to keep clean like you can (sort of)
leather, they don't breath very well IME, and the first barley seed you
come across will go straight through the fabric and the Goretex
membrane, at which point you can forget waterproof. For the worst of all
worlds I can recommend Nubuck with a Goretex liner - hot, sweaty,
impossible to clean, and the liner will still hole, but probably from
the inside out.

(not a fan, as you may have detected).

However remember that whether the boots =fit= overrides almost all other
considerations. 8>.

--
GSV Three Minds in a Can
Advert:
My (European model) Garmin 60C GPS is currently available for purchase via
amazon.co.uk. £240 (and falling)..

"Doki" wrote

Quoted message said:

I'm after a pair of walking boots. I used to go hiking as a kid, and
always used to have what I would call "proper" boots - brown leather,
rubber sole and no goretex or other "breathable" membranes. However, it
seems that most of the boots on sale in the shops have bits of suede and
nylon, and almost invariably a waterproof membrane, and some sort of foam
rubber in the sole, which always disintegrates on trainers that I've had.
This makes me very suspiscious, as I've yet to encounter a jacket that's
both waterproof and breathable enough for me to wear whilst riding a bike
without boiling in the bag, and I remember goretex jackets 12 years ago or
so not being brilliant either.

So, following that massive preamble: Are these new style boots any good?
Does the breathable bit actually breath? Do they actually last - I'll be
walking mostly around the dark peak (or, if they last half as long as
normal boots, are 2 pairs cheaper)? If not, can anyone recommend a pair of
leather boots, preferably with a sticky Vibram sole as I fall over a lot,
and as cheap as possible?

And one other thing: most of my walking is for uni field trips, and I have
a pair of cheapo "trekking shoes" which will get me through the rest of
this semester, but I'll definately need a pair for next September - is
there likely to be a big boot sale before this time?

Proper leather walking boots are still for sale made by various firms. A lot
of us still swear by them especially for winter use. The only problem is
they are rarely cheap, well the good ones anyway.
My wife and myself (and sis-in-law) all use Zamberlan nubuck leather boots
and would purchase them again. Unfortunately they don't seem to do the same
styles anymore.
http://www.zamberlan.com/catalog/uk/product.html?id=149&idc=23
http://www.zamberlan.com/catalog/uk/category.html?first=2&idc=13
http://www.brasher.co.uk/classic/index.cfm?fuseaction=products.home
http://www.altberg.co.uk/Web/walking.jsp
http://www.allanaustin.co.uk/menslightweightleather.htm
But, you can only buy boots by trying them on, with your own walking socks,
and having a good walk round. So don't buy on the net go to a proper shop
for professional advice* and try on.
* better during the week not on weekends usually as they have more time.

--
Regards
Bob
"Never get so busy making a living
that you forget to make a life"

Doki said:

I'm after a pair of walking boots. I used to go hiking as a kid, and always
used to have what I would call "proper" boots - brown leather, rubber sole
and no goretex or other "breathable" membranes. However, it seems that most
of the boots on sale in the shops have bits of suede and nylon, and almost
invariably a waterproof membrane, and some sort of foam rubber in the sole,
which always disintegrates on trainers that I've had. This makes me very
suspiscious, as I've yet to encounter a jacket that's both waterproof and
breathable enough for me to wear whilst riding a bike without boiling in the
bag, and I remember goretex jackets 12 years ago or so not being brilliant
either.

Many fabric boots are sold with a Gore-Tex or other breathable
waterproof liner to make them suitable for the usual British Hiking
Conditions. In practice, these liners do not remain intact for very
long, usually a few months of use at best.

For bike-riding - I assume you mean pedal-cycle, not motor-cycle - no
jacket will be good enough as your level of effort is very high. Carry
a light, simple neoprene-coated waterproof and only put it on when it
rains - you will get wet from condensation, but not lose too much heat
from being drenched with cold water.

"Not so brilliant" is difficult for an external observer to quantify.
Modern breathable waterproof membranes are very good at being wearable
in the dry or light shower conditions without condensation, yet still
keeping the downpour out - you'll get wet from condensation, but much
less than from the rain outside. Nothing short of air conditioning will
keep you dry in a downpour. Of course they are hot in hot conditions,
because the *other* function of Gore-Tex is to keep the wind out.

"Proper Boots" are available from such mundane outlets as Milletts, at
very reasonable prices.

Quoted message said:

So, following that massive preamble: Are these new style boots any good?
Does the breathable bit actually breath? Do they actually last - I'll be
walking mostly around the dark peak (or, if they last half as long as normal
boots, are 2 pairs cheaper)? If not, can anyone recommend a pair of leather
boots, preferably with a sticky Vibram sole as I fall over a lot, and as
cheap as possible?

The breathable bits breathe, i.e. they allow sweat out in dry
conditions. No breathable membrane will magic water away if the outside
is wetter than the inside, either because the outside environment is at
higher humidity (e.g. hill fog) or the membrane is coated with water.

They don't last. And if you are walking in the Dark Peak, I don't think
they are suitable at all. You might investigate a suitable pair of
wellington boots - people who work all day outdoors often wear them.

For As Cheap As Possible, definitely start at Milletts.

"Alan Dicey" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Doki said:

I'm after a pair of walking boots. I used to go hiking as a kid, and
always used to have what I would call "proper" boots - brown leather,
rubber sole and no goretex or other "breathable" membranes. However, it
seems that most of the boots on sale in the shops have bits of suede and
nylon, and almost invariably a waterproof membrane, and some sort of foam
rubber in the sole, which always disintegrates on trainers that I've had.
This makes me very suspiscious, as I've yet to encounter a jacket that's
both waterproof and breathable enough for me to wear whilst riding a bike
without boiling in the bag, and I remember goretex jackets 12 years ago
or so not being brilliant either.

Many fabric boots are sold with a Gore-Tex or other breathable waterproof
liner to make them suitable for the usual British Hiking Conditions. In
practice, these liners do not remain intact for very long, usually a few
months of use at best.

Is there some reason why hikers don't wear waterproof socks so you can swap
them rather than the boots when they start leaking?

Quoted message said:

For bike-riding - I assume you mean pedal-cycle, not motor-cycle - no
jacket will be good enough as your level of effort is very high. Carry a
light, simple neoprene-coated waterproof and only put it on when it
rains - you will get wet from condensation, but not lose too much heat
from being drenched with cold water.

Yep. I've got a waterproof that's not very waterproof, which can just about
cope. The makers say you'll start getting wet somewhere after the 2 hour
mark.

Quoted message said:

"Not so brilliant" is difficult for an external observer to quantify.
Modern breathable waterproof membranes are very good at being wearable in
the dry or light shower conditions without condensation, yet still keeping
the downpour out - you'll get wet from condensation, but much less than
from the rain outside. Nothing short of air conditioning will keep you
dry in a downpour. Of course they are hot in hot conditions, because the
*other* function of Gore-Tex is to keep the wind out.

"Not so brilliant" = I've never had a waterproof and breathable jacket that
breathes as well as I'd like. I've no idea if Goretex has improved lots, but
I can remember it not being great even on cold days.

Quoted message said:

"Proper Boots" are available from such mundane outlets as Milletts, at
very reasonable prices.

They do have some dirt cheap and surprisingly OK looking hi-tecs...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

So, following that massive preamble: Are these new style boots any good?
Does the breathable bit actually breath? Do they actually last - I'll be
walking mostly around the dark peak (or, if they last half as long as
normal boots, are 2 pairs cheaper)? If not, can anyone recommend a pair
of leather boots, preferably with a sticky Vibram sole as I fall over a
lot, and as cheap as possible?

The breathable bits breathe, i.e. they allow sweat out in dry conditions.
No breathable membrane will magic water away if the outside is wetter than
the inside, either because the outside environment is at higher humidity
(e.g. hill fog) or the membrane is coated with water.

Indeed.

Quoted message said:

They don't last. And if you are walking in the Dark Peak, I don't think
they are suitable at all. You might investigate a suitable pair of
wellington boots - people who work all day outdoors often wear them.

The thought had crossed my mind.

Quoted message said:

For As Cheap As Possible, definitely start at Milletts.

"GSV Three Minds in a Can" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Bitstring <[email hidden]>, from the wonderful person
Doki <[email hidden]> said

Quoted message said:

I'm after a pair of walking boots. I used to go hiking as a kid, and
always
used to have what I would call "proper" boots - brown leather, rubber sole
and no goretex or other "breathable" membranes. However, it seems that
most
of the boots on sale in the shops have bits of suede and nylon, and almost
invariably a waterproof membrane, and some sort of foam rubber in the
sole,
which always disintegrates on trainers that I've had. This makes me very
suspiscious, as I've yet to encounter a jacket that's both waterproof and
breathable enough for me to wear whilst riding a bike without boiling in
the
bag, and I remember goretex jackets 12 years ago or so not being brilliant
either.

So, following that massive preamble: Are these new style boots any good?
Does the breathable bit actually breath? Do they actually last - I'll be
walking mostly around the dark peak (or, if they last half as long as
normal
boots, are 2 pairs cheaper)? If not, can anyone recommend a pair of
leather
boots, preferably with a sticky Vibram sole as I fall over a lot, and as
cheap as possible?

Both Scarpa and Meindl still make 'real leather, no membrane' boots with
(mostly) Vibram soles, although they're expensive. High Tech makes some
too, but the sole isn't Vibram, and not as sticky. Brasher may do, but
they're off my shopping list, based on some recent cr&p products.

Seems even these have Goretex or similar. Or is the stuff in the Scarpas
just wicking stuff (better than goretex but stinks...)? Someone should
invent a merino lined boot...

Quoted message said:

The suede and nylon is impossible to keep clean like you can (sort of)
leather, they don't breath very well IME, and the first barley seed you
come across will go straight through the fabric and the Goretex membrane,
at which point you can forget waterproof. For the worst of all worlds I
can recommend Nubuck with a Goretex liner - hot, sweaty, impossible to
clean, and the liner will still hole, but probably from the inside out.

My usual treatment for the boot shoe things I've got at the moment is to
fling them in the washer. But that obviously ruins goretex. As would any
attempt to clean them with anything but water...

Quoted message said:

(not a fan, as you may have detected).

However remember that whether the boots =fit= overrides almost all other
considerations. 8>.

I had spotted that one 🙂.

On Thu, 30 Mar 2006 21:23:41 +0100, GSV Three Minds in a Can wrote...

Quoted message said:

Both Scarpa and Meindl still make 'real leather, no membrane' boots [...]

Bought a pair of Meindl 'real leather, no membrane' boots from Ellis
Brigham last Sunday. This was after much searching around all the local
outdoors shops. Several had Scarpas without membranes but I didn't like
them. Note that both Scarpa and Meindl also make versions *with*
Goretex membranes, so you have to shop around.

These new boots are to replace my venerable Zamberlans, which have done
good service for many years, including being resoled once, but are now
falling apart. I gather from an internet search that Zamberlam still do
them, both with and without a Goretex membrane, but the only ones I
could find locally had the membrane. (The assistant in that shop tried
to tell me that I wanted the membrane; I listened politely and kept my
wallet in my pocket).

Quoted message said:

However remember that whether the boots =fit= overrides almost all other
considerations. 8>.

Indeed. One reason I preferred the Meindls to the Scarpas. I've not
had the chance to take my purchase on a walk yet, but I've been wearing
them around the house and they feel fine. :-)

--
Tim Jackson
[email hidden]
(Change '.invalid' to '.com' to reply direct)
Absurd patents: visit http://www.patent.freeserve.co.uk

On Fri, 31 Mar 2006 01:35:12 +0100,

Tim Jackson said:

On Thu, 30 Mar 2006 21:23:41 +0100, GSV Three Minds in a Can wrote...

Quoted message said:

Both Scarpa and Meindl still make 'real leather, no membrane' boots [...]

Bought a pair of Meindl 'real leather, no membrane' boots from Ellis
Brigham last Sunday. This was after much searching around all the local
outdoors shops. Several had Scarpas without membranes but I didn't like
them. Note that both Scarpa and Meindl also make versions *with*
Goretex membranes, so you have to shop around.

These new boots are to replace my venerable Zamberlans, which have done
good service for many years, including being resoled once, but are now
falling apart. I gather from an internet search that Zamberlam still do
them, both with and without a Goretex membrane, but the only ones I
could find locally had the membrane. (The assistant in that shop tried
to tell me that I wanted the membrane; I listened politely and kept my
wallet in my pocket).

I bought a new pair of Zambers last year without the membrane - so they
are still available in some shops. In fact the shop didn't even have
the membrane version. If they fit you better than other boots (and they
do me) it is well worth searching them out.

--
Andy Leighton => [email hidden]
"The Lord is my shepherd, but we still lost the sheep dog trials"
- Robert Rankin, _They Came And Ate Us_

On Thu, 30 Mar 2006 20:41:52 +0100, "Doki" <[email hidden]> wrote:

|So, following that massive preamble: Are these new style boots any good?
|Does the breathable bit actually breath? Do they actually last - I'll be
|walking mostly around the dark peak (or, if they last half as long as normal
|boots, are 2 pairs cheaper)? If not, can anyone recommend a pair of leather
|boots, preferably with a sticky Vibram sole as I fall over a lot, and as
|cheap as possible?

To drift the thread a bit, about walking footwear which doesn't last. When
I was in the RAF in Aden (South Yemen) I walked in plymsols, remember
them?, on volcanic cinders, which cut them into shreds in a couple of days
use. Back to Stores for another pair, and the never questioned the number
I got through.
--
Dave Fawthrop <dave hyphenologist co uk> Google Groups is IME the *worst*
method of accessing usenet. GG subscribers would be well advised get a
newsreader, say Agent, and a newsserver, say news.individual.net. These
will allow them: to see only *new* posts, a killfile, and other goodies.

Doki said:

So, following that massive preamble: Are these new style boots any good?
Does the breathable bit actually breath?

Reading the catalogue Field & Trek recently sent us, I was looking
through the technical info appendix and came across a fantastic piece of
information regarding breathable waterproof membranes in boots. It
points out that they "work best in cold and dry conditions". So if it's
dry you don't need them, and if it's wet then you compromise their
ability to do their stuff... deary, deary me. But Marketing tells us
Waterproof Is Good, so everything tends to have liners now. Grrrr.

They will keep the water out, but whatever marketing tells you a
"breathable" plastic bag sewn into your boots will inhibit vapour
escaping more than if it isn't there, and your feet /will/ be sweatier
as a result.

Quoted message said:

Do they actually last

Not as long as the rest of the boot, and once they've gone the boots
will leak but you'll still have the problems.

Quoted message said:

And one other thing: most of my walking is for uni field trips, and I have a
pair of cheapo "trekking shoes" which will get me through the rest of this
semester, but I'll definately need a pair for next September - is there
likely to be a big boot sale before this time?

My undergrad degree was geophysics and we did a lot of fieldwork,
mapping on Arran, hunting for gold at Gairloch. We were recommended to
wear walking boots or wellies. Those of us with "proper" boots reacted
in horror to the idea of wellies and wore our "proper" walking boots,
but those in wellies generally had drier feet and didn't encounter any
obvious problems. Postgrads along to help us tended to wear wellies.
Get a good pair (builders' merchants do good site wellies that are VAT
exempt as they're protective equipment thanks to steel toecaps, and they
have soles well up to slippery conditions too) and they'll do standing
around in mud on field trips better than most hiking boots and need
substantially less care and feeding.

You'll probably get sneered at by people in "proper" boots (as I used to
sneer at wellies, which Clearly Weren't The Thing), but that's their
problem. You'll have drier feet, and will have paid /substantially/
less money.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Quoted message said:

High Tech makes some
too, but the sole isn't Vibram, and not as sticky.

Well, save us !

--
Boo

Quoted message said:

If not, can anyone
recommend a pair of leather boots, preferably with a sticky Vibram
sole as I fall over a lot, and as cheap as possible?

If you're anywhere near a TK-Maxx, they often have walking boots in. Don't
go out of your way tho - it's very much a pop in on the off chance kind of
place. They can also be quite good with jackets too.

Have you considered Army boots? £20 at <www.the-outdoor.co.uk> [1] or
<clicks away> £10 if you don't mind grade 2 -prolly just more scuffed
leather on the toes- (click on the Grade 2 retail thingy).

They're nice and waterproof (with a little dubbin I'm happy standing up to
the tops in a nice cool stream while my feet cool down) but are not that
light. Only a tenner tho...

[1] Good service as well as prices - recommended.