General fitness, health and nutrition · Public discussion

Marathon strategy

Started by Robert Grumbine · · Last activity · 20 posts · 481 views

This thread is locked and is currently read-only.

Thread navigation

Jump through the discussion

Go to the original post, the replies on this page, or the latest preserved contribution.

Thread details

What we know about this thread

Original section
General fitness, health and nutrition
Published
5 April 2006
Last activity
14 April 2006
Original author
Robert Grumbine
Posts
20
Discussion status
Public discussion
Total views
481
Views / 30 days
0

The navigation and discussion metadata provide context. Posts remain in their original chronological order.

Showing posts 1–20 of 20
Posts remain in their original chronological order.

Text size
  1. The recently finished National Marathon had 736 finishers in the
    marathon, and provides splits at the half way point as well. Since
    it's a modest size data set and readily available, I'll take the
    opportunity to return to the positive vs. negative splits question
    for marathon strategy. This race had qualifying time standards. This
    will have likely skewed the racing towards people who have more
    prior experience and who race faster, making it a good ground for
    seeing what works well. The course was such that the first and second
    halves were of approximately comparable difficulty. The first half
    had the course's major hill, but was otherwise relatively flat.
    The second half, net downhill, rolled its way along, never very long
    or steep up or down hill. For this and other details, see
    http://www.nationalmarathon.com/ My sanity check runner (guy I
    know, and had talked to before the race about his plans) ran nearly
    dead even splits.

    The summary for those who don't like the gruesome mathematical details:

    * People who ran very positive splits ('time in the bank' strategy) did
    very poorly, none placing in the top 10% of their age group and few
    making the top 50%.

    * People who ran very negative splits did well, placing slightly more
    than expected (albeit not statistically significant) in the top 10%, and
    definitely significant at succeeding in placing in the top 50% and
    avoiding bottom 10% finishes.

    * People who placed well (top 10%) were extremely likely to have avoided
    very positive splits, had splits much closer to even than the race median,
    and were much more likely than racers overall to have run negative splits.

    Gruesome mathematical details:

    My transformed table is the seconds for the first half, seconds
    for the second half, ratio of second/first (positive splits are greater
    than one), and place as a percentage -- first of 100 runners is listed
    as 0.01. Arguably this should be 0.00. The advantage of the computation
    I used is that it will give the right number of runners finishing in
    the top 10% of their age group -- anybody whose place is lower than 0.10.

    Placement is by age group, not overall. Given that age does matter
    to times, and that we're looking for good strategy -- regardless of
    time for the race -- top age group competitors are a good place to
    look. A 30-something guy can place relatively well overall without
    having run a very good race for himself or his age group. But the
    top 55 year old has to run well.

    Consider the 10% (74) of runners who had the highest ratios (most
    postive splits). If positive splits were a good idea, this group
    should have done well (especially many top 10% finishes). If neutral,
    then about 10% should be in the top 10%, 50% in the top 50%, etc.
    Of the 74, 0 placed in the top 10%, and only 10 placed in the top 50%.
    If it were an even neutral idea, those numbers should have been 7.4 and
    37, respectively. (Due laughter at the 0.4 runner.) The differences
    are significant at better than the 99% statistical confidence level.
    25 of these runners placed in the bottom 10% of finishers in their
    age group, statistically also very signficant. (Again more than 99%
    confidence). So we can say with confidence that people who ran very
    positive splits (the most even of these 74 took 21% longer on the
    second half than the first, 1:54 and 2:18 for the halves, for instance)
    had poorer than expected placement if the strategy were a neutral idea,
    and much worse than expected if it were a good idea. 'time in the bank'
    did not work.

    Now consider the 10% of the runners who finished with the lowest ratios
    (most negative splits). One might expect that these runners have
    sacrificed some placement for the sake of their negative splits.
    Instead, we find that 9 of them placed in the top 10% of their age
    group (vs. the expected 7.4, not a statistically significant difference,
    but it does not seem to have harmed their placement even at the upper
    reaches), and 50 (vs. expected 37) placed in the top 50% of their
    age group -- which _is_ signficant, at better than 99% confidence level.
    Only 1 of these runners placed in the bottom 10%, statistically signficant
    at, again, better than 99% confidence. So those who ran very negative
    splits did no harm (as a group) to their top 10% finish chances, and greatly
    improved their chances to finish in the top half, and to avoid the bottom
    10%, respectively. The range of ratios for this group was from 84.4%
    (splits of 2:10, 1:49) to 97.2% (1:58, 1:55).

    So those who ran very positive finished poorly, those who ran very
    negative did ok or well. But ... how about competing for the top
    placements?

    The 73 runners who finished in the top 10% of their age group (we
    lost one to a small group) -- median ratio was 1.012 (1:32:56, 1:34:05),
    versus the race median of 1.063. Lowest was 0.873 (near the lowest in
    the entire race!) and highest was 1.184. Only 5 of these top finishers
    were more than 10% positive split (ex, 2:00, 2:12), versus 251 runners
    in the race overall. This is significant at a level far beyond 99%
    (far enough that my tables don't go there -- z = 59). 31 of these runners
    ran negative splits, versus 170 in the race overall. It is significant at
    the 99% level that runners who ran negative splits were more likely
    to place in the top 10%.

    So runners who did well were especially likely to not run positive
    splits, and were especially likely to run negative splits. Of the two,
    avoiding very positive splits is especially well-marked, and 'very'
    is an amount much less than many people have mentioned planning on running
    their marathons. This is certainly not what the top finishers were
    doing at this race.

    Followup questions that'd be nice to ask include to check with the 5
    who placed in the top 10% in spite of their very positive splits whether
    this was a good race for them. Conversely, to follow up with the
    31 who ran negative splits whether they wished they'd run the first
    half faster.

    The overall winner ran splits of 1:16:08, 1:14:47, to win by 3:37.
    Second (part of a pack of 4 who passed half way in about 1:18:15)
    followed that with a 1:16:16 second half, gaining 1:24 during the
    second half over third place, who'd run 1:18:10, 1:18:39.
    --
    Robert Grumbine http://www.radix.net/~bobg/ Science faqs and amateur activities notes and links.
    Sagredo (Galileo Galilei) "You present these recondite matters with too much
    evidence and ease; this great facility makes them less appreciated than they
    would be had they been presented in a more abstruse manner." Two New Sciences

  2. i don't think you can assume the objective, purpose, or strategy of the
    data set prior to the start of the race or from the results.

    well trained runners are going to run neg splits regardless of distance
    (10K, 1/2M or full M). i don't think what I think is your point is
    unique to 26.2.

    weekend warriors, non-chalent entries are probably not. talented
    atheles who are doing it for [censored] and giggles will score well but may
    not run neg splits.

    when you see neg splits, it's not by accident, it's usually the result
    of proper training. properly trained runners will usually score
    better. i don't think it's all that complex and reflects nothing more
    than "you usually get out of things what you put in them".

    follow a solid 18 week M training program and you'll likely clock some
    neg splits and perform well. not news.

  3. what is a negative split? do you mean you should run slower in first
    half of race?

  4. <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    i don't think you can assume the objective, purpose, or strategy of the
    data set prior to the start of the race or from the results.

    well trained runners are going to run neg splits regardless of distance
    (10K, 1/2M or full M).

    Quoted message said:

    i don't think what I think is your point is
    unique to 26.2.

    Where the hell did you learn to write? Relearn it anyway.

  5. <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    what is a negative split? do you mean you should run slower in first
    half of race?

    No, you should run faster in the second half.

  6. 90% of the time i post is via blackberry, gimme a break the keyboard is
    the size of two postage stamps.

  7. sagnac.....
    light splits
    mirrors.

    I am a biker and 1/2. is my life.......
    360×13.1=4716
    365×13.1=4781.5

    360×26.2=9432
    365×9563

    MIB=N.J Not windy city....
    Pi that e,t. nerd has been.......
    J.K once said in a cross word puzzle that mindy was Mark.....Not
    Mork.....
    the west is not the best........
    what the point Baffle......
    aun't no point sept to get out there and do it........
    L.S.D. could mean ladder day saint as do D N R is did not run......

    butt to say sagnac is to know at the end of the year who well still be
    here..and who won't.........

    and to think mirrors in the olden days were used for light. Not to look
    at your self skinny pont is my bellied do hit my knees some
    times......Butt I do it.and you don't........ .......

    42°N,83°W 90°N,180° 90°lat,
    3rd planet from the Sun.
    Milky Way, Orion arm.
    U.S.A., Michigan. west of Port Huron
    Bottum of Lake Huron.

  8. Quoted message said:

    i don't think you can assume the objective, purpose, or strategy of the
    data set prior to the start of the race or from the results.

    Huh? I never knew data sets had a strategy.

    Quoted message said:


    well trained runners are going to run neg splits regardless of distance
    (10K, 1/2M or full M). i don't think what I think is your point is
    unique to 26.2.

    Are you claiming those top finishers that ran positive splits were not
    "well trained" ?
    Are you also saying those "well trained" runners have no pacing
    strategy and always just run flat out the whole race? And still manage
    to run negative splits? Always?

    Quoted message said:


    weekend warriors, non-chalent entries are probably not. talented
    atheles who are doing it for **expletive**s and giggles will score well but may
    not run neg splits.

    when you see neg splits, it's not by accident, it's usually the result
    of proper training. properly trained runners will usually score
    better. i don't think it's all that complex and reflects nothing more
    than "you usually get out of things what you put in them".

    You repeat the claim about training. But it needs some explaination.
    Otherwise, it looks to me like you assume those runners do not have any
    control over their pacing.
    How 'bout you splain it to us, Lancey?

    Quoted message said:


    follow a solid 18 week M training program and you'll likely clock some
    neg splits and perform well. not news.

    methinks it is more involved than that.
    Ed

  9. Robert Grumbine said:

    The recently finished National Marathon had 736 finishers in the
    marathon, and provides splits at the half way point as well. Since
    it's a modest size data set and readily available, I'll take the
    opportunity to return to the positive vs. negative splits question
    for marathon strategy. This race had qualifying time standards. This

    [snip a lot of good stuff for brevity]

    One question one might ask is, did the positive splits people really run like
    that as *strategy* or did they intend to run even splits and just blow up ?

    There are several possible issues with the +tive splits people:
    (1) they planned to run like that
    (2) they planned to run even or negative, hit the first half on target but
    blew up
    (3) they had a plan, but discarded it (ran the first half faster than planned)
    (4) their race was so bad that they hit the first half slower than planned, and
    it just kept getting worse.

    Either way, your post does make a
    pretty good case against *planning* to run positive splits. An interesting
    followup question would be to ask what splits people *planned* to run. That
    would go a long way towards getting at these questions. I think the questions
    you posed in your post also attempt to get at causality issues in various ways.

    BTW, it's worth noting that a very good marathon performance -- about 2.15*HM,
    is pretty much impossible unless you're fairly close to 1.0. For example,
    if you run the fast half in about HM+2.5% (that's 2 minutes for a 1:20 HM),
    that leaves about HM+12.5% for the second half, so you get 1.125/1.025 or
    1.025/1.125 which puts you in the 0.9-1.1 range. So that might explain why
    the top finishers were close to even splits.

    Cheers,
    --
    Donovan Rebbechi
    http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

  10. It would interesting to correlate this with "first timers" who
    about a third of most marathons entries.
    First timers frequently run positive splits not having
    experience of the final energy drain (wall).

  11. Robert Grumbine said:

    I'm pretty sure that one of the guys who finished well (top 10 over
    all) with rather positive splits got there because he was going for
    place rather than time.

    Indeed, you get this all the time with front-of-pack runners. For example, with
    the 2005 NY marathon, the top 8 finishers all hit the half at the same time

    2005:
    (1) Paul Tergat 1:04:57 2:09:30 (1:04:33)
    (4) Robert Kipkoech Cheruiyot 1:04:57 2:11:01 (1:05:04)
    (8) Simon Wangai 1:04:58 2:13:19 (1:08:21)

    then there were a couple more in the top 20 who ran 2:15 off 1:05 first half
    splits (ouch!) Obviously these guys were planning to hang with the lead pack.

    Part of this was probably out of necessity -- nearly all the "tier 1" elites
    were in this lead pack, then there was a bit of a no-mans land, followed by
    a smaller (N=3) chase pack of "tier 2" elites (~2:15 guys).

    So the guys who battling for the top few places are inevitably going to run
    with the first pack.

    Cheers,
    --
    Donovan Rebbechi
    http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

  12. Sub Freaking 22 Donnie?...and you asked me how'd I do today?...C'mon,
    cough up the details.

  13. Quoted message said:

    Sub Freaking 22 Donnie?...and you asked me how'd I do today?...C'mon,

    I saw your time -- based on your mood after the race, I thought you'd run 27
    minutes or slower. Really, at this time of year, you did OK. You should be
    shooting for under 6 minutes per mile for 4 miles or 5k.

    Quoted message said:

    cough up the details.

    Well not a whole lot to say about it except it went well.

    Let's see ...

    I went into this not expecting a whole lot. Last DeCastella workout was a
    17:48, so that indicates about a 17:18 5k time, or maybe around 22:20 for
    4 miles. The three DeCastella workouts before that were 18:xx, 18:xx and a DNF,
    I screwed up the workout badly by doing the first reps too quick and had to
    finish early. There was a very solid harlem hill reps workout in the mix too,
    I ran about 6 flat for 3x1.14 mile reps (about 5:16/mile) So I was running this
    coming off relatively sketchy preparation and showing some fitness but little
    consistency.

    I decided I'd just go out with a 11:00 first half and see how it went (though
    the wrong mile splits would throw plans about explicit pacing goals). If I were
    to fade and run 22:30, I could live with that, but if I held on, that would be
    a bonus. If I weren't even fit enough for 22:30, I figured I would feel it very
    early and settle in for a slower first half. But I was pretty sure i could do
    22:30 or better.

    The morning was a bit cooler than I expected. I consider that a good thing at
    this time of year, and had planned appropriately -- I went with the travel
    light approach, and brought a "[censored] pack" so that I could carry that around
    and only change into my racing clothes at the last minute.

    The start line was in a different position. I think that taking the extra turn
    out of the course at the start was a really good idea, but it would have been
    nice if they adjusted the mile markers. I think they were off by about 40-50
    seconds (first mile ~6:15, last one ~4:40)

    Even with the team start, the start of the race was very crowded due partly
    to a deep field, and partly because there were a bunch of fastish women (~6mpm)
    crowding the front. The top 50 men were all sub 5:30 this time. I did have some
    idiot clip my heels from behind and then yell at me because he clipped my
    heels just before cat hill. Thankfully, by the time I was at the top of cat
    hill I could neither see nor hear him.

    Despite the strange first mile split, I felt OK because based on who I was
    running with, I knew I was doing OK. So I held a steady pace for the first
    two miles. Mile 3 is where the rolling hills are, so I passed a lot of people
    along there. The mile 3 split was 17:20, so I wasn't expecting a fast time
    at that stage. I remember just hoping for sub 23. So I was a bit surprised when
    the finish clock showed that I was close to sub 22. I wasn't sure if I'd broken
    22 until I checked my time at home.

    Then I joined my teammates for a 5 mile cooldown.

    Cheers,
    --
    Donovan Rebbechi
    http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

  14. "Robert Grumbine" <[email hidden]> wrote

    Quoted message said:

    Ed Prochak <[email hidden]> wrote:

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Asking the top finishers if this was a PR for them also.

    Of my 6 PR's in the marathon (3:21, 3:08, 2:53, 2:44, 2:42, 2:37:30,
    2:37:10), only the 2:44 was a negative split (and that one hurt the most--a
    sadistic faster friend kept me from letting up)...

    All the rest were positive by from 1-2 minutes except for the 3:21 which was
    a disasterous +13 or so.

    -- Dan

  15. In article <[email hidden]>,

    Dan Stumpus said:


    "Robert Grumbine" <[email hidden]> wrote

    Quoted message said:

    Ed Prochak <[email hidden]> wrote:

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Asking the top finishers if this was a PR for them also.

    Of my 6 PR's in the marathon (3:21, 3:08, 2:53, 2:44, 2:42, 2:37:30,
    2:37:10), only the 2:44 was a negative split (and that one hurt the most--a
    sadistic faster friend kept me from letting up)...

    All the rest were positive by from 1-2 minutes except for the 3:21 which was
    a disasterous +13 or so.

    So taking 2 minutes positive against the fastest (giving the greatest
    proportional unevenness in pacing) marathon gives 1:17:35 followed by
    1:19:35, for a 1.026 ratio. In other words, even at the worst, you ran
    (by the standards of the results in my local race) extremely evenly.

    Toss in some courses being more challenging in the second half than
    the first ...

    Your disastrous +13 ... 1:40:30 would have been even, so 1:34/1:47 splits.
    Ratio of 1.138.

    I think that helps define a range of where you (if we're being literal,
    that's you personally, but I suspect it generalizes) go from running
    well, with a little positive split, to a disastrous day -- up to 3%
    (give or take) positive being a good, controlled race, and over 13%
    being a disaster. As a guess, what would you say to 8% being the
    turnover? For that 3:21 marathon 97:104 splits, 7 minutes positive?

    Versus 6 minute mile pace, that 8% is about 30 seconds/mile, which,
    if anything, seems enormous -- starting at 5:30 pace instead of the
    6:00. 3% is about 5:50 vs. 6:00.

    Versus 12:30 pace (~5:30 marathon), that 8% is a full minute per mile.

    --
    Robert Grumbine http://www.radix.net/~bobg/ Science faqs and amateur activities notes and links.
    Sagredo (Galileo Galilei) "You present these recondite matters with too much
    evidence and ease; this great facility makes them less appreciated than they
    would be had they been presented in a more abstruse manner." Two New Sciences

  16. You need a marathon strategy just to get through Grumbine's 15 paragraph
    brain fart.

    I started strong, but stumbled about mile 4. I quit altogether on mile
    12, after realizing the course markers were leading me nowhere.

  17. Dan Stumpus a écrit :

    Quoted message said:

    Of my 6 PR's in the marathon (3:21, 3:08, 2:53, 2:44, 2:42, 2:37:30,
    2:37:10), only the 2:44 was a negative split (and that one hurt the most--a
    sadistic faster friend kept me from letting up)...

    it's funny, we have more or less the same first 3 PR :
    3:19, 3:04, 2:58
    I'm impressed by the jump from 3:21 to 2:37! At what age did you run these?
    (What I have in mind, is : what room for improvement do I still have
    with marathon running, knowing that I'm 41...)

    Quoted message said:


    All the rest were positive by from 1-2 minutes except for the 3:21 which was
    a disasterous +13 or so.

    FWIW, my marathons were run thusly :
    1st :
    Finish Half Split
    3:19:49 1:35:19 + 8:51
    3:04:39 1:29:41 + 5:17
    2:58:10 1:28:24 + 1:46

    I Hope next one is a negative split with another PR... ;-p

    m

  18. "Robert Grumbine" <[email hidden]> wrote

    Quoted message said:

    Dan Stumpus <[email hidden]> wrote:

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Of my 6 PR's in the marathon (3:21, 3:08, 2:53, 2:44, 2:42, 2:37:30,
    2:37:10), only the 2:44 was a negative split (and that one hurt the
    most--a
    sadistic faster friend kept me from letting up)...

    Correction on the 2:42 marathon -- (It was about 20 yrs ago...) -- I hit 20
    in 1:58-or 1:59, then hit the wall, slowing to about 7:00 miles, so I was
    probably about +6 on that one. And it was a bad day at the office.

    Without getting into ratios and percentages, I consider 5-6 minutes positive
    to be a serious screw up. (In this case it was caused by *racing* another
    runner up a long upgrade at mile 14 or so. I beat that guy, but probably
    took 5 minutes off my finishing time).

    Quoted message said:

    Your disastrous +13 ... 1:40:30 would have been even, so 1:34/1:47
    splits.
    Ratio of 1.138.

    The disasterous first marathon (+13 minutes) was paced as follows: first 3
    miles 8:00/mile, miles 4-20 at 6:50/mile, followed by a collapse at 20 miles
    (it was very hot and hilly, and I didn't drink much). It took me about an
    hour to do the last 10k. So most of the lost minutes were in the last 6
    miles. It was my first race, and I had no idea how fast or slow I was.

    My conclusions are that a big positive hurts a lot more than an even paced
    race, and a negative also hurts more than even pace.

  19. "marko" <[email hidden]> wrote

    Quoted message said:

    Dan Stumpus a écrit :

    Quoted message said:

    Of my 6 PR's in the marathon (3:21, 3:08, 2:53, 2:44, 2:42, 2:37:30,
    2:37:10), only the 2:44 was a negative split (and that one hurt the
    most--a sadistic faster friend kept me from letting up)...

    it's funny, we have more or less the same first 3 PR :
    3:19, 3:04, 2:58
    I'm impressed by the jump from 3:21 to 2:37! At what age did you run
    these?

    I ran these from age 27 - 32. The first two races were quite hot -- over
    80F and I overheated in them.

    It took me 15 months to go from no running to 2:44, but I played a lot of
    tennis (15 hrs/week).
    It took me another 2 years to get down to 2:37. I also increased my miles
    from 50/week for the first marathon, to 95/week for the last two.

    Quoted message said:

    (What I have in mind, is : what room for improvement do I still have with
    marathon running, knowing that I'm 41...)

    From looking at your training and your account of the race, I think you were
    "sandbagging" a bit. (American slang for easing up and not doing your very
    best). Of course, you were comfortably running your goal pace, and I can
    see why you didn't want to risk destruction by going harder.

    You've probably got a sub-2:50 in you, with some more weekly miles, some 10k
    races, and harder effort on race day. Your training was very light by my
    standards. Your heart rate was 165 for the Paris race (I assume your
    maximum is 195-200). A young (and I consider 41 young in distance running)
    runner in top shape can average 175 for a marathon. That extra 10 beats is
    18-24 sec/km.

    So you have some untapped talent there. Do you have time to train more?

    -- Dan

  20. Dan Stumpus a écrit :

    Quoted message said:

    I ran these from age 27 - 32. The first two races were quite hot -- over
    80F and I overheated in them.

    It took me 15 months to go from no running to 2:44, but I played a lot of
    tennis (15 hrs/week).
    It took me another 2 years to get down to 2:37. I also increased my miles
    from 50/week for the first marathon, to 95/week for the last two.

    It looks like you've got a real talent for running! Your progresion is
    amazing in such a short span!

    Quoted message said:

    From looking at your training and your account of the race, I think you were
    "sandbagging" a bit. (American slang for easing up and not doing your very
    best). Of course, you were comfortably running your goal pace, and I can
    see why you didn't want to risk destruction by going harder.

    I don't know if I was sandbagging :-), but that was my easiest marathon,
    and the most enjoyable. I still had DOMS until yesterday though...
    It's also true that at some point, I didn't want to risk an injury or
    whatever, so I kept as much control of the pace as I could.

    Quoted message said:

    You've probably got a sub-2:50 in you, with some more weekly miles, some 10k
    races, and harder effort on race day. Your training was very light by my

    Great if it's true! OTOH I'm not sure I could train as hard as you do...

    Quoted message said:

    standards. Your heart rate was 165 for the Paris race (I assume your
    maximum is 195-200). A young (and I consider 41 young in distance running)
    runner in top shape can average 175 for a marathon. That extra 10 beats is
    18-24 sec/km.

    actually my max is about 180 I assume, so an avg of 160 seems ok to me.
    I might increase my marathon HR by another 5bpm, but mostly I should be
    able to lower my LT I think!

    Quoted message said:


    So you have some untapped talent there. Do you have time to train more?

    Well, it's quite difficult to find more time that I already devote to
    running, but by running in the early morning, I could make it for next
    spring I guess.

    Thanks for your answer Dan

    m

    Quoted message said:


    -- Dan

Active in the last 60 minutes

Active in this thread

0 users · 0 guests ·0 bots ·0 total

No signed-in users are active right now.

No known search crawlers active right now.