General fitness, health and nutrition · Public discussion

Larry...

Started by Martin W. Smith · · Last activity · 16 posts · 1,549 views

This thread is locked and is currently read-only.

Thread navigation

Jump through the discussion

Go to the original post, the replies on this page, or the latest preserved contribution.

Thread details

What we know about this thread

Original section
General fitness, health and nutrition
Published
14 September 2003
Last activity
14 September 2003
Original author
Martin W. Smith
Posts
16
Discussion status
Public discussion
Total views
1,549
Views / 30 days
2

The navigation and discussion metadata provide context. Posts remain in their original chronological order.

Showing posts 1–16 of 16
Posts remain in their original chronological order.

Text size
  1. You were going to take a few days to find out if muscles recharge with glycogen by converting stored
    fat, when there are no carbs present.

    I think the answer is no, but I have read that the liver starts creating glycogen for this purpose
    when there are no carbs present, but it take slonger to recharge the muscles this way. The question
    then becomes, where does the liver get the material to make glycogen, from stored fat or from
    ingested fat?

    martin

    --
    Martin Smith email: [email hidden] Vollsveien 9 tel. : +47 6783 1188
    P.O. Box 482 mob. : +47 932 48 303 1327 Lysaker, Norway

  2. Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    You were going to take a few days to find out if muscles recharge with


    glycogen by converting stored fat, when there are no carbs present.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    I think the answer is no, but I have read that the liver starts creating


    glycogen for this purpose when there are no carbs present, but it take slonger to recharge the
    muscles this way. The question then becomes, where does the liver get the material to make glycogen,
    from stored fat or from ingested fat?<<

    The body _can't_ convert fat to glycogen! Glycogen can be made only from sugars and from protein
    (amino acids) -- the latter through a process called gluconeogenesis. So, when you don't take in
    sufficient carbohydrate to make glycogen, the only way that you can make it is to break down muscle
    to release amino acids, which can then be converted to glucose, and from there to glycogen.

    The reason that mammals can't convert fat to carbohydrate is that the only possible precursor to
    sugar/gycogen from fatty acids is a two carbon molecule called acetyl CoA, formed from the breakdown
    of fatty acids. Acetyl CoA is also formed from the breakdown of pyruvate, which, in turn, comes from
    the breakdown of glucose. What happens is that glucose goes to pyruvate which goes to Acetyl CoA +
    C02. So, in theory, fats could make glucose (and then glycogen) by being broken down to Acetyl CoA,
    which could then combine with C02 to make pyruvate, which could then go back up the glyconeogenic
    pathway to make glucose. In practice, however, this doesn't happen because the reaction pyruvate ->
    Acetyl CoA + CO2 is essentially irreversible. So animals (including humans) can't make glycose (or
    glycogen) from fat (plants can do this, but animals cannot).

    I could have answered this question right away. The question that I said I'd look up (still haven't
    had the time to research it, but I shall do so) is whether or not people on very low carbohydrate
    diets do, in fact, have reduced glycogen stores.

    Will get back when I've got an answer.

    Larry Weisenthal

    Certitude is poison; curiosity is life

  3. My naturopathic doctor told me drinking a quart of OJ is a good way to quickly build up depleted
    glycogen. The excess amount of juice is more than the body needs for energy and the liver converts
    this surplus into glycogen. (This is probably a simplification of what happens. However, the times
    I've tried this, I seem to be able to sustain harder workouts the following day)

    I eat a low carb (no pasta, potato, banana, grains-a little no wheat bread) diet of mostly raw
    fruits and veggies, nuts, seeds. After experimenting for a while, I find having a single orange
    about an hour before my afternoon Masters' WO seems to give best energy for me. However, AM WOs I do
    fine with no food.

    This same doctor claims if glycogen storage is functioning properly, one should be able to go
    without food for 24 hours without energy problems.

  4. larry burns said:

    My naturopathic doctor told me drinking a quart of OJ is a good way to quickly build up depleted
    glycogen. The excess amount of juice is more than the body needs for energy and the liver converts
    this surplus into glycogen. (This is probably a simplification of what happens.

    It's close to 500Cal of fructose. It's a too strong for me, though, right after a hard session.

    Quoted message said:

    This same doctor claims if glycogen storage is functioning properly, one should be able to go
    without food for 24 hours without energy problems.

    I've seen estimates of typical glycogen reserves to be in the 2000-3000 range, which is a normal
    day's diet.
    --
    Jason O'Rourke www.jor.com

  5. Quoted message said:

    The question that I said I'd look up (still haven't had the time to research it, but I shall do
    so) is whether or not people on very low carbohydrate diets do, in fact, have reduced glycogen
    stores.<<

    This was surprisingly hard to track down. I still don't have the answer with regard to a study in
    humans (perhaps not surprising; would require multiple muscle biopsies).

    The following rat study was very interesting, however.

    Basically, they looked at both red ("aerobic"😉 and white ("anaerobic"😉 muscles in animals on high
    fat diets vs high carb diets, pre and post exercise, for glycogen content.

    The only differences were in the case of the white muscle. In the high fat group, muscle glycogen
    was lower than in the high carb group. In red muscle, there were no differences in glycogen, pre-or
    post exercise. White muscle can burn only carbs (they are "white" because they lack mitochondria,
    which are required to burn fat and lactate, which, along with glucose [from glycogen], are the main
    fuels for muscle fiber contraction). It seems that with a high fat diet, there is a selective
    dis-use (lack of use) of white muscle and more use of red muscle (capable of burning fat + lactate).
    So the athlete burns more fat (but also takes in more fat, so the fact that the athlete burns more
    fat does not necessarily mean that the net "fat balance" (intake vs burning) is skewed to promote a
    greater net loss of fat).

    Glycogen is probably not depleted in red muscle on high fat diets anymore than on high carb diets
    because less glycogen is being burned in the red muscles on the high fat diet (red muscle can burn
    either glycogen, fat, or lactate, while white muscle can burn only fat).

    What is the potential disadvantage in not burning glycogen for fuel in exercising muscle? What is
    the potential disadvantage in not using white muscle fibers?

    Well, glycogen metabolism generates ATP faster than does fat metabolism. So the rate of ATP
    production will be theoretically diminished, when glycogen isn't burned. And white muscle fibers are
    the so-called "fast twitch" fibers which power explosive performance (as in sprinting). So not using
    these fibers is a potential disadvantage in competition.

    At the level of the ultra-endurance athlete or at the leve of the fitness swimmer, I doubt that
    there would be a reproducible, measurable difference in performance.

    Maybe the reason Martin's swimming performance has been just a little uneven since changing diets
    has to do with the necessity of getting his muscle fibers to adjust to the changing energy sources,
    which may take a little time. As I wrote some months ago (relating to my own experience), I do think
    that when a swimmer loses weight that the swimmer's buoyancy changes, balance changes, and
    performance may change (at least temporarily) as well.

    The caveat to all of this is that this was a RAT study. Not sure that a similar study ever has been
    (or will ever be) done in humans.

    1: Int J Sports Med. 1998 Aug;19(6):419-24.

    Glycogen depletion patterns in trained rats adapted to a high-fat or high-carbohydrate diet.

    Nakamura M, Brown J, Miller WC.

    Department of Kinesiology, Indiana University, Bloomington, USA.

    Male Sprague-Dawley rats (n = 48, > 200 g) were progressively treadmill trained over 5 wk where they
    were running 60 min/d, 5 d/wk. One-half of the group consumed a high-fat diet (HF, 78.7% of energy),
    while one-half consumed a high-carbohydrate diet (HC, 68.7% of energy). On the day of the
    experiment, 6 rats per diet were run at 29 m/min, 8% grade for 0, 10, 20, or 60 min. Immediately
    post-exercise rats were anesthetized, and soleus (S), red vastus lateralis (RV), and white vastus
    lateralis (WV) muscles were removed. There were no significant differences between diets for S
    glycogen pre-, during, or post-exercise. RV glycogen (micromol x g(-1) wet wt) was lower (p < 0.05)
    at rest for the HF (27.5 +/- 3.9, Mean +/- SEM) vs the HC (37.6 +/- 3.5), but similar to HC at 60
    min (11.0 +/- 1.9, HF; 8.6 +/- 1.3, HC). RV glycogen use rates (nmol x g(-1) x min(-1)) were lower
    for the HF (985 +/- 295, 356 +/- 61) than the HC (1593 +/- 144, 1055 +/-
    2) for 0-10 and 11-20 min, respectively. Resting WV glycogen was lower for the HF (25.3 +/-
    1.6) vs the HC
    (3.7 +/- 5.8), while post exercise values were similar
    (4. +/- 4.4, HF; 15.7 +/- 2.0, HC). WV glycogen use was negligible from 0-10 and 11-20 min in the HF
    compared to the HC (280 +/- 169 and 1601 +/- 177 nmol x g(-1) x min(-1), respectively). These
    data indicate that muscle glycogen is spared during the early stages of prolonged exercise in HF
    adapted rats and that the sparing occurs according to expected muscle recruitment patterns.

    Larry Weisenthal

    Certitude is poison; curiosity is life

  6. Larry Weisenthal said:

    The only differences were in the case of the white muscle. In the high fat group, muscle glycogen
    was lower than in the high carb group. In red muscle, there were no differences in glycogen,
    pre-or post exercise. White muscle can burn only carbs (they are "white" because they lack
    mitochondria, which are required to burn fat and lactate, which, along with glucose [from
    glycogen], are the main fuels for muscle fiber contraction). It seems that with a high fat diet,
    there is a selective dis-use (lack of use) of white muscle and more use of red muscle (capable of
    burning fat + lactate). So the athlete burns more fat (but also takes in more fat, so the fact
    that the athlete burns more fat does not necessarily mean that the net "fat balance" (intake vs
    burning) is skewed to promote a greater net loss of fat).

    This might well explain the results I saw. I swam slower because my white muscle fibers were not
    being used as much or not at all. I assume by "high fat" we mean high in percentage terms. My diet
    is not particularly high in fat in grams, I think. It might not be much higher than it was prior to
    the diet at all, given that I have eliminated cookies and brownies. I eat more eggs, more cheese,
    and I eat bacon, but I am not eating a lot more. I am eating a lot more nuts, which are high in fat.

    Quoted message said:

    Maybe the reason Martin's swimming performance has been just a little uneven since changing diets
    has to do with the necessity of getting his muscle fibers to adjust to the changing energy
    sources, which may take a little time. As I wrote some months ago (relating to my own experience),
    I do think that when a swimmer loses weight that the swimmer's buoyancy changes, balance changes,
    and performance may change (at least temporarily) as well.

    I think this is the case, but does a white fiber actually change to a red fiber, or does the white
    fiber simply not contribute in the absense of carbs?

    martin

    --
    Martin Smith email: [email hidden] Vollsveien 9 tel. : +47 6783 1188
    P.O. Box 482 mob. : +47 932 48 303 1327 Lysaker, Norway

  7. "Martin W. Smith" <[email hidden]> ha scritto nel messaggio "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    use of red muscle (capable of burning fat + lactate). So the athlete


    burns

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    more fat (but also takes in more fat, so the fact that the athlete burns


    more

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    fat does not necessarily mean that the net "fat balance" (intake vs


    burning) is

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    skewed to promote a greater net loss of fat).

    This might well explain the results I saw. I swam slower because my white muscle fibers were not
    being used as much or not at all. I assume

    It seems much more likely, to me, that you swim slower due to the necessity to adapt your tecnique
    to your different buoyancy.

    O.

  8. P.S. Just a follow-up to the discussion on the RAT study, in which a high-fat/low-carb diet produced
    a depletion in glycogen content in white muscle fibers (which was compensated for by increased
    use of red muscle fibers, which can adapt to low carbohydrate intake by *burning more fat).

    The other thing to consider is that white muscle fibers are more prominent in upper body ("turkey
    wing"😉 muscles than in lower body ("duck wing"😉 muscles in humans.

    If the swimmer disproportionately relies on white muscle fibers (relative to runners and cyclists),
    which I believe is true, then glycogen depletion would be expected to have a greater deleterious
    effect on swimmers than on runners and cyclists. A swimmer (or kayaker) might have more trouble with
    the Atkins Diet than a runner or cyclist, performance-wise.

    Again, just based on data from a single rat study; still haven't found any comparable studies in
    humans (looking at muscle fiber glycogen as a function of high fat/low carb vs high carb/low fat).

    Larry Weisenthal

    Certitude is poison; curiosity is life

  9. In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] (Larry

    Weisenthal) said:

    (red muscle can burn either glycogen, fat, or lactate, while white muscle can burn only fat).

    Geez...misspoke/flying fingers. White muscle can burn only carbohydrate (glucose, from stored
    glycogen and from circulating glucose). This is because white muscle lacks mitochondria, as
    previously explained.

    So a Sprague-Dawley rat on the Atkins diet gets depleted of glycogen in his white (Fast
    Twitch/"anaerobic"😉 fibers and has to use his red (slow twitch/"aerobic"😉 fibers, which become more
    adapted to fat burning, but which can't contract as rapidly as the rats now unused white fibers. And
    the rat doesn't decrease his net fat balance because, even though he's burning more fat, he's also
    eating more fat.

    Larry Weisenthal

    Certitude is poison; curiosity is life

  10. Martin W. Smith said:
    Larry Weisenthal said:

    The only differences were in the case of the white muscle. In the high fat group, muscle glycogen
    was lower than in the high carb group. In red muscle, there were no differences in glycogen,
    pre-or post exercise. White muscle can burn only carbs (they are "white" because they lack
    mitochondria, which are required to burn fat and lactate, which, along with glucose [from
    glycogen], are the main fuels for muscle fiber contraction). It seems that with a high fat diet,
    there is a selective dis-use (lack of use) of white muscle and more use of red muscle (capable of
    burning fat + lactate). So the athlete burns more fat (but also takes in more fat, so the fact
    that the athlete burns more fat does not necessarily mean that the net "fat balance" (intake vs
    burning) is skewed to promote a greater net loss of fat).

    This might well explain the results I saw. I swam slower because my white muscle fibers were not
    being used as much or not at all. I assume by "high fat" we mean high in percentage terms. My diet
    is not particularly high in fat in grams, I think. It might not be much higher than it was prior
    to the diet at all, given that I have eliminated cookies and brownies. I eat more eggs, more
    cheese, and I eat bacon, but I am not eating a lot more. I am eating a lot more nuts, which are
    high in fat.

    Quoted message said:

    Maybe the reason Martin's swimming performance has been just a little uneven since changing diets
    has to do with the necessity of getting his muscle fibers to adjust to the changing energy
    sources, which may take a little time. As I wrote some months ago (relating to my own
    experience), I do think that when a swimmer loses weight that the swimmer's buoyancy changes,
    balance changes, and performance may change (at least temporarily) as well.

    I think this is the case, but does a white fiber actually change to a red fiber, or does the white
    fiber simply not contribute in the absense of carbs?

    According to what I've read their are three muscles fibers, Can't think of there technical
    names off teh type of my head, but.... One would be what you're calling white, the other
    red. The third is a bit of a hybrid between the two. Present study is conflicted on whether
    the white is turning into red or visa versa, or whether the hybrid fiber is simply acting
    more like the other fibers. If you'd like I'll try and dig up more of the techy stuff.

    Quoted message said:


    martin

    --
    Martin Smith email: [email hidden] Vollsveien 9 tel. : +47 6783 1188
    P.O. Box 482 mob. : +47 932 48 303 1327 Lysaker, Norway

    I've been following this conversation and although I don't have nearly teh grasp on the
    chemistry as Larry apparently does I have a bit of a differing opinion. It seems to me that
    a person on the Atkins diet would suffer from a low carb diet over a period of time and
    under certain training conditions. I believe that it has been shown in a few studies that
    muscle glycogen is replenished significantly quicker on a high carb diet. Certain levels of
    activity rely on higher levels of glycogen metabolism due to the slower rate of fat
    metabolism. So if one were to go out and do certain excercises, such as 60-120 sec intervals
    at a higher intensity 80+ VO2max one would run into a glycogen depletion situation. If one
    were on a low carb diet and attempt to do these excercises on a regular basis performance
    would eventually suffer, in some cases fairly quickly. Considering that nearly all levels of
    excercise depend on glycogen metabolism to one extent or another I can see this depletion
    being a factor in many less extreme cases also. For instance a long run/swim/bike day
    followed by a track/interval/hill workout etc.

    ~Matt

  11. Fast twitch fibers can be converted into slow twitch fibers. And slow twitch fibers can be converted
    to fast twitch fibers. Experiments in animals have identified a few targets the drugs can be
    developed :-). One day you may be able to convert any one into a super sprinter. On the other hand,
    low carbo diet may reduce the number of fast twitch fibers (Type II).

    "Martin W. Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:
    Larry Weisenthal said:

    The only differences were in the case of the white muscle. In the high fat group, muscle
    glycogen was lower than in the high carb group. In red muscle, there were no differences in
    glycogen, pre-or post exercise. White muscle can burn only carbs (they are "white" because they
    lack mitochondria, which are required to burn fat and lactate, which, along with glucose [from
    glycogen], are the main fuels for muscle fiber contraction). It seems that with a high fat diet,
    there is a selective dis-use (lack of use) of white muscle and more use of red muscle (capable
    of burning fat + lactate). So the athlete burns more fat (but also takes in more fat, so the
    fact that the athlete burns more fat does not necessarily mean that the net "fat balance"
    (intake vs burning) is skewed to promote a greater net loss of fat).

    This might well explain the results I saw. I swam slower because my white muscle fibers were not
    being used as much or not at all. I assume by "high fat" we mean high in percentage terms. My diet
    is not particularly high in fat in grams, I think. It might not be much higher than it was prior
    to the diet at all, given that I have eliminated cookies and brownies. I eat more eggs, more
    cheese, and I eat bacon, but I am not eating a lot more. I am eating a lot more nuts, which are
    high in fat.

    Quoted message said:

    Maybe the reason Martin's swimming performance has been just a little uneven since changing
    diets has to do with the necessity of getting his muscle fibers to adjust to the changing energy
    sources, which may take a little time. As I wrote some months ago (relating to my own
    experience), I do think that when a swimmer loses weight that the swimmer's buoyancy changes,
    balance changes, and performance may change (at least temporarily) as well.

    I think this is the case, but does a white fiber actually change to a red fiber, or does the white
    fiber simply not contribute in the absense of carbs?

    martin

  12. MJuric said:
    Martin W. Smith said:
    Larry Weisenthal said:

    The only differences were in the case of the white muscle. In the high fat group, muscle
    glycogen was lower than in the high carb group. In red muscle, there were no differences in
    glycogen, pre-or post exercise. White muscle can burn only carbs (they are "white" because they
    lack mitochondria, which are required to burn fat and lactate, which, along with glucose [from
    glycogen], are the main fuels for muscle fiber contraction). It seems that with a high fat diet,
    there is a selective dis-use (lack of use) of white muscle and more use of red muscle (capable
    of burning fat + lactate). So the athlete burns more fat (but also takes in more fat, so the
    fact that the athlete burns more fat does not necessarily mean that the net "fat balance"
    (intake vs burning) is skewed to promote a greater net loss of fat).

    This might well explain the results I saw. I swam slower because my white muscle fibers were not
    being used as much or not at all. I assume by "high fat" we mean high in percentage terms. My diet
    is not particularly high in fat in grams, I think. It might not be much higher than it was prior
    to the diet at all, given that I have eliminated cookies and brownies. I eat more eggs, more
    cheese, and I eat bacon, but I am not eating a lot more. I am eating a lot more nuts, which are
    high in fat.

    Quoted message said:

    Maybe the reason Martin's swimming performance has been just a little uneven since changing
    diets has to do with the necessity of getting his muscle fibers to adjust to the changing energy
    sources, which may take a little time. As I wrote some months ago (relating to my own
    experience), I do think that when a swimmer loses weight that the swimmer's buoyancy changes,
    balance changes, and performance may change (at least temporarily) as well.

    I think this is the case, but does a white fiber actually change to a red fiber, or does the white
    fiber simply not contribute in the absense of carbs?

    According to what I've read their are three muscles fibers, Can't think of there technical
    names off teh type of my head, but.... One would be what you're calling white, the other
    red. The third is a bit of a hybrid between the two. Present study is conflicted on whether
    the white is turning into red or visa versa, or whether the hybrid fiber is simply acting
    more like the other fibers. If you'd like I'll try and dig up more of the techy stuff.

    Quoted message said:


    martin

    --
    Martin Smith email: [email hidden] Vollsveien 9 tel. : +47 6783 1188
    P.O. Box 482 mob. : +47 932 48 303 1327 Lysaker, Norway

    I've been following this conversation and although I don't have nearly teh grasp on the
    chemistry as Larry apparently does I have a bit of a differing opinion. It seems to me that
    a person on the Atkins diet would suffer from a low carb diet over a period of time and
    under certain training conditions. I believe that it has been shown in a few studies that
    muscle glycogen is replenished significantly quicker on a high carb diet. Certain levels of
    activity rely on higher levels of glycogen metabolism due to the slower rate of fat
    metabolism. So if one were to go out and do certain excercises, such as 60-120 sec intervals
    at a higher intensity 80+ VO2max one would run into a glycogen depletion situation. If one
    were on a low carb diet and attempt to do these excercises on a regular basis performance
    would eventually suffer, in some cases fairly quickly. Considering that nearly all levels of
    excercise depend on glycogen metabolism to one extent or another I can see this depletion
    being a factor in many less extreme cases also. For instance a long run/swim/bike day
    followed by a track/interval/hill workout etc.

    ~Matt

    Another potential problem I meant to mention was the increased potential for "Bonking". It
    is my understanding that even at low levels of activity, such as the levels present in Ultra
    Marathons, IM's etc, that it takes a certain amount of glucose to use in the process of
    metabolising fat. If one runs into a severe glucose depletion nearly all sources of energy
    are unavailable and you "Bonk". I would consider this to be a very real potential problem if
    one has not replinished the glycogen stores from a previous workout and is heading into a
    longer workout. However probbaly not an issue during Martins 1500m swims.

    ~Matt

  13. In article said:

    Another potential problem I meant to mention was the increased potential for "Bonking". It
    is my understanding that even at low levels of activity, such as the levels present in Ultra
    Marathons, IM's etc, that it takes a certain amount of glucose to use in the process of
    metabolising fat. If one runs into a severe glucose depletion nearly all sources of energy
    are unavailable and you "Bonk".

    Yes, and it's a big problem for the elites in the ironman length races. You have to go at a rate
    that burns enough fat that you can make it, since most people can't consume more than 200Cal/hr when
    competing, on top of that 2 or 3k Cal in gylcogen. And once you've gone over the edge, there's not
    much recovery, even if you're one of the top ranked triathletes in the world.
    --
    Jason O'Rourke www.jor.com

  14. "Larry Weisenthal" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    You were going to take a few days to find out if muscles recharge with


    glycogen by converting stored fat, when there are no carbs present.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    I think the answer is no, but I have read that the liver starts creating


    glycogen for this purpose when there are no carbs present, but it take slonger to recharge the
    muscles this way. The question then becomes, where does the liver get the material to make
    glycogen, from stored fat or from ingested fat?<<

    The body _can't_ convert fat to glycogen! Glycogen can be made only from sugars and from protein
    (amino acids) -- the latter through a process


    called

    Quoted message said:

    gluconeogenesis. So, when you don't take in sufficient carbohydrate to


    make

    Quoted message said:

    glycogen, the only way that you can make it is to break down muscle to


    release

    Quoted message said:

    amino acids, which can then be converted to glucose, and from there to glycogen.

    okay, that now raises a question... Body can't convert fat into Protein... and now you say that body
    can't convert fat to carbohydrate...

    Just how *does* the fat get used up? I do know from experience that fat *can* get used up.

  15. Larry Weisenthal said:


    In article 5my0b.6105$S_.2673@fed1read01 said:

    okay, that now raises a question... Body can't convert fat into Protein... and now you say that
    body can't convert fat to carbohydrate...

    Just how *does* the fat get used up? I do know from experience that fat *can* get used up.

    Fat (in the form of stored triglycerides) gets broken down to free fatty acids and free fatty
    acids get broken down to form acetyl CoA. Acetyl CoA enters the Krebs cycle (citric acid cycle) in
    the mitochrondria of the cell (red muscle/aerobic muscle has lots of mitochondria; white muscle
    has very few), where it generates ATP which is the "fuel" for cellular metabolism (in the case of
    a muscle cell, ATP fuels muscle contraction).

    So, here is another, related question. Assuming the Atkins diet works because the calories going in
    are less than the calories being burned, can I be adding muscle while losing weight. ie, can muscle
    be added when the calorie intake is insufficient to maintain weight? It seems to me I am getting a
    lot stronger, but I am losing weight. Someone in the low-carb-diet newsgroup says you can't add
    muscle when you are losing weight. Is he correct?

    martin

    --
    Martin Smith email: [email hidden] Vollsveien 9 tel. : +47 6783 1188
    P.O. Box 482 mob. : +47 932 48 303 1327 Lysaker, Norway

  16. DaKitty <[email hidden]> wrote:

    : "Larry Weisenthal" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    : "]news:[email hidden]...
    :> >>You were going to take a few days to find out if muscles recharge with
    :> glycogen by converting stored fat, when there are no carbs present.
    :>
    :> >>I think the answer is no, but I have read that the liver starts creating
    :> glycogen for this purpose when there are no carbs present, but it take slonger to recharge the
    :> muscles this way. The question then becomes, where does the liver get the material to make
    :> glycogen, from stored fat or from ingested fat?<<
    :>
    :> The body _can't_ convert fat to glycogen! Glycogen can be made only from sugars and from protein
    :> (amino acids) -- the latter through a process
    : called
    :> gluconeogenesis. So, when you don't take in sufficient carbohydrate to
    : make
    :> glycogen, the only way that you can make it is to break down muscle to
    : release
    :> amino acids, which can then be converted to glucose, and from there to glycogen.

    : okay, that now raises a question... Body can't convert fat into Protein... and now you say that
    : body can't convert fat to carbohydrate...

    : Just how *does* the fat get used up? I do know from experience that fat *can* get used up.

    It's been a while since I did biochem at uni, so forgive me if I misremember. Stored fat exists in
    the body as triacylglycerides. This is broken down via "fatty acid oxidation" or "beta-oxidation"
    into Acetyl-CoA and perhaps some NADH and FADH2 is released here too. The Acetyl-CoA then enters the
    Citric Acid Cycle to produce NADH, FADH2 and some ATP, as well as the waste product CO2. NADH and
    FADH2 are then converted into ATP, which is the main energy carrying molecule of the body.

    Essentially, this is a catabolic pathway and the fat is burned up and used as an energy source. It's
    a very dense energy source for a number of reasons. Firstly, stored TAG is hydrophobic so it's quite
    dense (no water to disolve into), secondly the carbon atoms I believe are more reduced than the
    carbons from glycogen and thus yeild more ATP per molar equivalent.

    Like I said, it's been a while, but if you search on "Fatty Acid Oxidation", "beta-oxidation" and
    "the citric acid cycle", or even "respiration" you should be able to get a more complete and
    possibly more accurate overview.

Active in the last 60 minutes

Active in this thread

0 users · 0 guests ·0 bots ·0 total

No signed-in users are active right now.

No known search crawlers active right now.