Discovery in disarray.... ?

hombredesubaru said:

It was Karsten Kroon and the CSC DS who saw the motopacing...otherwise Kroon would have made the split.
But here's what Boonen said:
"I saw the DUTCHMAN coming up and I decided to drop him."
Nothing like some blind nationalistic pride influencing the race.

That is my point.
The Belgian press towed the two Belgian escapees away.
The Belgian World Champion saw a Dutch rider cming across then went to the front and dropped the hammer so two Belgians would get away.
A Belgina rider, Hoste, secretly attacked his American team leader so the two Belgians could get away.
Like I said, it was more of the same from the Belgians.

The motopacing also happened in MSR if you recall, the Italian press towing the Italian break away.

I saw 2 interviews with Kroon he didn't mention the motors in the interviews i saw, in one of them he said: "Hoste and Boonen where too fast for me"....

I didn't see the race but read the coverage on cyclingnews and read the post race interviews. I think the interviews tell the story well. George was surprised by Hoste's attack. He did sit on after that to be a good teammate. George is a really nice guy and this confirms it. He is a great rider and really kind of a poor man's Boonen if you think about it. He sprints better than anyone but real sprinters and is a huge hammer on the cobbles.... just not enough to get over the hump it appears. I think it is difficult to compare GT team approach to classics teamwork, but Lance would have been on the radio to Johan, Johan on the radio to Hoste, and he would have done what he was told. That simple. With George "in charge" he sits up and lets Hoste go with Boonen. Clearly, the team does not have it's act totally together on tactics and disarray is not a bad term for what's happening. On the flip side, they are getting solid results because nobody is going to beat Boonen. Even a three man break with Hoste, Boonen, and Hincapie only changes the order on the podium. Hincapie would have taken second. So it's immaterial in a sense to debate this. DC got the best result they could have gotten. But, the way they got the result speaks volumes about their lack of current teamwork... in the classics anyway. Funny how this started as a debate about GT disarray, now it's on to classics. DC is not QS in the classics, never will be. They have a buttload of classics talent with Gusev, Hoste, Hammond, Eki, Hincapie, Devolder but they are not QS and aren't really close... nobody is right now. For GT disarray, I am not yet willing to concede. Johan will be in the drivers seat and a different cast of characters. We shall see. For the classics, disarray was evident yesterday.... that I concede.

Lastly, the Ullrich/Hincapie comparison is laughable. Not even close. Ullrich is a guy with serious GT talent, serious GT results who hasn't fulfilled his potential for a variety of reasons. Hincapie is a very solid, very talented classics rider who prepares very well and races hard but just doesn't have what it takes to get over the hump. They are opposites, Hincapie does very well with less than top tier talent, Ullrich has underachieved with unique talent. I am a big Ullrich fan but those are the facts.

barnstorm said:

I didn't see the race but read the coverage on cyclingnews and read the post race interviews. I think the interviews tell the story well. George was surprised by Hoste's attack. He did sit on after that to be a good teammate. George is a really nice guy and this confirms it. He is a great rider and really kind of a poor man's Boonen if you think about it. He sprints better than anyone but real sprinters and is a huge hammer on the cobbles.... just not enough to get over the hump it appears. I think it is difficult to compare GT team approach to classics teamwork, but Lance would have been on the radio to Johan, Johan on the radio to Hoste, and he would have done what he was told. That simple. With George "in charge" he sits up and lets Hoste go with Boonen. Clearly, the team does not have it's act totally together on tactics and disarray is not a bad term for what's happening. On the flip side, they are getting solid results because nobody is going to beat Boonen. Even a three man break with Hoste, Boonen, and Hincapie only changes the order on the podium. Hincapie would have taken second. So it's immaterial in a sense to debate this. DC got the best result they could have gotten. But, the way they got the result speaks volumes about their lack of current teamwork... in the classics anyway. Funny how this started as a debate about GT disarray, now it's on to classics. DC is not QS in the classics, never will be. They have a buttload of classics talent with Gusev, Hoste, Hammond, Eki, Hincapie, Devolder but they are not QS and aren't really close... nobody is right now. For GT disarray, I am not yet willing to concede. Johan will be in the drivers seat and a different cast of characters. We shall see. For the classics, disarray was evident yesterday.... that I concede.

Lastly, the Ullrich/Hincapie comparison is laughable. Not even close. Ullrich is a guy with serious GT talent, serious GT results who hasn't fulfilled his potential for a variety of reasons. Hincapie is a very solid, very talented classics rider who prepares very well and races hard but just doesn't have what it takes to get over the hump. They are opposites, Hincapie does very well with less than top tier talent, Ullrich has underachieved with unique talent. I am a big Ullrich fan but those are the facts.

I couldn't describe it better!

If Hincappie wanted to win, or have a chance to win the race, he should have gone with the move that Hoste made. Boonen did. The two gained upwards of 1:30 on the trailing group, yet they were within reach for the first couple of minutes after the attack. At the end George said he had great legs. Too bad he didn't put them to better use. In his post race interview he was clearly trying to play the diplomat and seemed bewildered that a Belgian would try and win Flanders. A great rider makes the best of any move made by another rider. In this case Boonen reacted and the rest did not, or could not. Given Hincappies statement it seems he should have had the legs, but for whatever reason did not make a move. However, whchever way you slice or dice it, Boonen was clearly unbeatable and a level above everyone else except Hoste.

davidbod said:

If Hincappie wanted to win, or have a chance to win the race, he should have gone with the move that Hoste made. Boonen did. The two gained upwards of 1:30 on the trailing group, yet they were within reach for the first couple of minutes after the attack. At the end George said he had great legs. Too bad he didn't put them to better use. In his post race interview he was clearly trying to play the diplomat and seemed bewildered that a Belgian would try and win Flanders. A great rider makes the best of any move made by another rider. In this case Boonen reacted and the rest did not, or could not. Given Hincappies statement it seems he should have had the legs, but for whatever reason did not make a move. However, whchever way you slice or dice it, Boonen was clearly unbeatable and a level above everyone else except Hoste.

Alternate possibility: Discovery is in perfect array and George made a deal with Leif... RVV for P-R, including rumors of treason and disarray to confound the challengers.

OK, it's stretching but if George attacks 30km from Roubaix does Boonen chase him down, dragging Leif with him?

OK, George attacking is another stretch, but I like to think about stuff like that.

cyclingheroes said:

I saw 2 interviews with Kroon he didn't mention the motors in the interviews i saw, in one of them he said: "Hoste and Boonen where too fast for me"....

It may have been the CSC DS Svott Sunderland or whomeevr but there were lotsa complaints about it.
You can see from Graham Watson's pics that Boonen and Hoste were right in HIS slipstream at THE crucial moment as you could in the videos as well.
I mean all you need behind a motobike is 5-7 seconds and that opens a big gap.

DiabloScott said:

Alternate possibility: Discovery is in perfect array and George made a deal with Leif... RVV for P-R, including rumors of treason and disarray to confound the challengers.

OK, it's stretching but if George attacks 30km from Roubaix does Boonen chase him down, dragging Leif with him?

OK I will take the bait. Isn't this a bit of stretch? I mean really, how easy is to plan the 30km from the finish break in the Roubaix? Heck of an assumption that you and your buddy will be in the right place at the right time (no flats, no crashes, no mechanicals) in the toughest race on equipment out there.

And for the record, in his present form, I do not think it would make a difference whether the entire Discovery team broke away with Boonen... :o

hombredesubaru said:

He physically and mentally is on another new level. He was the only one in that last pack at Flanders who had any capacity to either gap Boonen on a climb or outsprint him.

LOL, yes it was clear that Hincapie could have ripped Boonen apart on the climbs. 🙄 The entire group strung out, with Pozzato turning around while Boonen and Bettini chatted, telling him to keep moving.

Come on, we are all fans here, but this is becoming ridiculous. 1. Either it was an anti-Hincapie plan (that must have kept Boonen up the night before); or 2. Hoste screwed it up. Hincapie would have had a real chance to win.

Face it, Hoste did what he could, got a second place in the Ronde, will have a very cushy contract next year (either with Discovery, or with someone else), and Hincapie was not tactically able to be in the right place at the right time, and/or attack himself.

davidbod said:

If Hincappie wanted to win, or have a chance to win the race, he should have gone with the move that Hoste made. Boonen did. The two gained upwards of 1:30 on the trailing group, yet they were within reach for the first couple of minutes after the attack. At the end George said he had great legs. Too bad he didn't put them to better use. In his post race interview he was clearly trying to play the diplomat and seemed bewildered that a Belgian would try and win Flanders. A great rider makes the best of any move made by another rider. In this case Boonen reacted and the rest did not, or could not. Given Hincappies statement it seems he should have had the legs, but for whatever reason did not make a move. However, whchever way you slice or dice it, Boonen was clearly unbeatable and a level above everyone else except Hoste.

If Hincapie tried to bridge it would be as bad a tactic as what Hoste did. And no one here is saying that Hincapie would beat Boonen in the sprint.But Hincapie was every bit as strong as Hoste. Hoste walked up a climb, Hincapie did not. And I agree nobody but maybe PPV/Zabel/Bettini could have attempted a sprint against Boonen, but if DC was to have any hope at all it would have been the 2 of them, along with possibly PPV working over Boonen before the sprint. Hincapie did say he was surprised that Hoste went when he did.
The moto-bike incident was mentioned in severall websites by several teams. But that is common in belgium to help a Belgian rider.
Hincapie showed class by not pulling the group up to Hoste/Boonen and when the gap iingered at 15 seconds for a long time it may have been possible.
And it is impossible to compare Ullrich/Hincapie's results....... Hincapie was considered a rider who used what talent he had......Ullich was seen as the Second Coming of Christ himself and has not delivered. I was a big Ullrich fan but have mixed emotions going into the TDF.

DC needed two riders against fewer than four Quickstep to have a bigger chance to win. Since Hoste and Hincapie were both in good form, they should have utilized a strategy that capitalized on that. Not that Boonen wouldn't have won, but the strategy would have made more sense than Hoste cooperating with Boonen to get to a sprint that Hoste had less chance, one on one, than Hincapie of winning against Boonen (although both DC riders' chances were bad in the sprint). 😉

musette said:

DC needed two riders against fewer than four Quickstep to have a bigger chance to win. Since Hoste and Hincapie were both in good form, they should have utilized a strategy that capitalized on that. Not that Boonen wouldn't have won, but the strategy would have made more sense than Hoste cooperating with Boonen to get to a sprint that Hoste had less chance, one on one, than Hincapie of winning against Boonen (although both DC riders' chances were bad in the sprint). 😉

lets get real... Hincapie is a slightly better sprinter than Hoste.. is than difference in sprinting ability enough to put Hincapie in front of Boonen at the line... NO WAY!! so that point is completely irrelevant... this is TEAM tactics, not Hincapie tactics and in the end TEAM Disco got 2nd and 3rd places on the podium with Boonen head and shoulders above anyone else.. any way you slice it it is the best they could, or any team in the peleton, on that day could have hoped for...

DiabloScott said:

Not to worry - I got the whole thing on TiVO.

Check whether it was Michael Barry, who wears the same type of sunglasses this season as Hincapie is. While Barry crashed out and broke three vertebrae, it could have been after he was pictured walking.

http://www.michaelbarry.ca/
(shows sunglasses)

Demol speaks:

""George was clearly frustrated at the end of the race, it's true," Demol said. "He had the best legs he's ever had here, and then two riders escape and one is his teammate. Many people have asked, why Leif? He couldn’t win a sprint against Boonen. Well, I can tell you." "When Leif attacked with 32 km left it was not supposed to have been a race-deciding effort. We were trying to break up the Quick Step grip on the front of the race. We figured a big effort could get the numbers down to maybe two of them and two of us and then we'd see how it went. Leif was surprised to see that he had only Boonen with him, and radioed back to me to see what he should do. "I told Leif that he could cooperate but that Boonen had to take the longest pulls. I also told him that if George could bridge up, then Leif could not pull any more and he'd have to wait for George. Leif was completely happy with this plan, as was Johan (Bruyneel) when I spoke with him later. I radioed George and told him to try and drop the riders he was with and then Leif will be waiting for you. George agreed and put in a big effort on the Muur, but couldn’t shake the guys he was with, and that's why Leif and Boonen went to the line 1-2."

I have to say Demol's advice to Leif was not too good. :eek:

musette said:

I have to say Demol's advice to Leif was not too good. :eek:

Yeah, I'm not so sure it's true either.

musette said:

Demol speaks:

""George was clearly frustrated at the end of the race, it's true," Demol said. "He had the best legs he's ever had here, and then two riders escape and one is his teammate. Many people have asked, why Leif? He couldn’t win a sprint against Boonen. Well, I can tell you." "When Leif attacked with 32 km left it was not supposed to have been a race-deciding effort. We were trying to break up the Quick Step grip on the front of the race. We figured a big effort could get the numbers down to maybe two of them and two of us and then we'd see how it went. Leif was surprised to see that he had only Boonen with him, and radioed back to me to see what he should do. "I told Leif that he could cooperate but that Boonen had to take the longest pulls. I also told him that if George could bridge up, then Leif could not pull any more and he'd have to wait for George. Leif was completely happy with this plan, as was Johan (Bruyneel) when I spoke with him later. I radioed George and told him to try and drop the riders he was with and then Leif will be waiting for you. George agreed and put in a big effort on the Muur, but couldn’t shake the guys he was with, and that's why Leif and Boonen went to the line 1-2."

I have to say Demol's advice to Leif was not too good. :eek:

do you have the link?

[Edit] never mind found it... http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2006/apr06/apr04news

makes sense to me... bottom line... If Hincapie wanted to be a factor and have a chance to win this race he should have been on Boonens wheel as Boonen followed Hoste's wheel.. he didn't or couldn't... either way at the end of the day Disco took 2nd and 3rd places on the podium.. why give up a sure 2nd place and a probable 3rd place as Hincapie gets to sit on wheels and arrive to the line fresh for the sprint for 3rd... for a maybe 2nd place.. and a maybe whatever... makes NO sense...

musette said:

Check whether it was Michael Barry, who wears the same type of sunglasses this season as Hincapie is. While Barry crashed out and broke three vertebrae, it could have been after he was pictured walking.

http://www.michaelbarry.ca/
(shows sunglasses)

Actually I think it was Hoste. The sunglasses were white, like George wore last year.

doctorSpoc said:

do you have the link?

[Edit] never mind found it... cyclingnews.comnews.phpOpen ↗

makes sense to me... bottom line... If Hincapie wanted to be a factor and have a chance to win this race he should have been on Boonens wheel as Boonen followed Hoste's wheel.. he didn't or couldn't... either way at the end of the day Disco took 2nd and 3rd places on the podium.. why give up a sure 2nd place and a probable 3rd place as Hincapie gets to sit on wheels and arrive to the line fresh for the sprint for 3rd... for a maybe 2nd place.. and a maybe whatever... makes NO sense...

I agree with this. Everyone knew that Boonen was the man to beat and if Hincapie wanted to be in contention at the end, should of gave it everything he had to try and grab Boonen's wheel when Hoste attacked.

Would of made the race a bit more interesting, even though even if DSC had a 1:2 advantage in the break I still don't think they would of had any chance against Boonen.

The one thing that doesn't make much sense is that if Hoste was told by Demol to attack to try hurt QSI a bit, why didn't Hincapie know that the attack was coming? Am I missing something here?

I don't think Demol told Hoste to attack at that particular point.

Some other quotes are also telling (Eurosport):

Hincapie: "When Leif launched his attack, I was thinking about doing the same. It's all the more a shame that in view of my velocity, I think I really had my chance in a sprint. On the one hand, I'm very happy with this third place - it's the first time I'm on the podium in the Ronde - and on the other, I have the feeling that I had great legs... and didn't make the most of them."

Hoste: "Unfortunately, I quickly realized that I was full speed nearly everywhere and it wasn't possible for me to accelerate in these climbs. Hence, the sprint became inevitable."

If you realized it so quickly that a sprint would be inevitable, dear Leif, why didn't you try to consider the whole strategic prospects for DC as a team? I say DC should shed him, although of course they won't. 😄

Rhubarb said:

I agree with this. Everyone knew that Boonen was the man to beat and if Hincapie wanted to be in contention at the end, should of gave it everything he had to try and grab Boonen's wheel when Hoste attacked.

Would of made the race a bit more interesting, even though even if DSC had a 1:2 advantage in the break I still don't think they would of had any chance against Boonen.

The one thing that doesn't make much sense is that if Hoste was told by Demol to attack to try hurt QSI a bit, why didn't Hincapie know that the attack was coming? Am I missing something here?

Yes!! Rhubarb, my exact thought.
Conclusion: Demol is full of [censored], recall he is Belgian of course.
Maybe Hoste was supposed to attack but later and closer to the Muur and with full warning to George.

If you look at the tapes, George was way out of position to try and follow, which I am convinced Hoste did on purpose. Hoste sneaked around the outside in the gutter and then just flew, Hincapie was boxed in and by time he could get around he WOULD have been dragging Bettini and others back.

And I dont care what the odds are, George would have stood a better chance against Boonen than Hoste.

And I am now officially sick of pretty boy Tom saying [censored] like "It doesnt matter if Hincapie had been there I would have beaten him too."
Oh really, Tom? Then why run the race? Just go ahead and collect the trophy and prixe money and spare all the riders 280 km of hell.

If Lance had EVER, I mean EVER stuffed it in someone's face like that he would have been doused in cognac and set on fire in the Alps.

I sincerely hope Boonen crashes in Paris Roubaix and Hoste Hincapie and PVP go into the velodrome where George will rip Hoste a new a##hole.

musette said:

Demol speaks:

""George was clearly frustrated at the end of the race, it's true," Demol said. "He had the best legs he's ever had here, and then two riders escape and one is his teammate. Many people have asked, why Leif? He couldn’t win a sprint against Boonen. Well, I can tell you." "When Leif attacked with 32 km left it was not supposed to have been a race-deciding effort. We were trying to break up the Quick Step grip on the front of the race. We figured a big effort could get the numbers down to maybe two of them and two of us and then we'd see how it went. Leif was surprised to see that he had only Boonen with him, and radioed back to me to see what he should do. "I told Leif that he could cooperate but that Boonen had to take the longest pulls. I also told him that if George could bridge up, then Leif could not pull any more and he'd have to wait for George. Leif was completely happy with this plan, as was Johan (Bruyneel) when I spoke with him later. I radioed George and told him to try and drop the riders he was with and then Leif will be waiting for you. George agreed and put in a big effort on the Muur, but couldn’t shake the guys he was with, and that's why Leif and Boonen went to the line 1-2."

I have to say Demol's advice to Leif was not too good. :eek:

I would totally agree... I have to re-think that maybe DC is in disarray with advice like that.....
Cooperate with a World Champion on his own homegrounds in a race he has won?
That is silly thinking ......