am i good?

vio765 said:

ok, i know this is a difficult question to answer, but do your best. i am 27, 2nd year of racing, cat 5. my FTP is 230 and watts/kg is 2.94. i train using joe friel's book and started base 1 on dec 4th. i just started build 1 a day ago. I added a "base 4", which for me, is like base 3 but more volume. so far i have about 2000 miles in my legs so far. i am shooting for 475 hours this years. so far about 180 hours of training. so the big question is: what do you think? am i normal or "cycling's D student"?

It sounds like you're fishing around for Dr. Coggan's power profile chart, available here:

http://www.cyclingpeakssoftware.com/profile.html

According to this chart, an FT of 2.94 puts you in the middle of cat 5. The real question is, how do you do in your races? If you're winning, you're good. If you're not, you've still got some work to do.

As Andy's chart shows, your current numbers are average for Cat5, but the more important question is, "How are you responding to training?" I'm not really familiar with Friel's terminology, so I don't know how many minutes you're getting each week at the power/duration combos that result in increased power (e.g., L4 & L5 in Andy Coggan's schema). If you're riding at the equivalent of L4 or L5 efforts, the question is, "Why not?" If you are riding at the equivalent of L4 or L5, the question is, "Are you seeing any increase in power from week to week?" You're allocating enough training time per week to improve your power. The question is whether you are using your training time efficiently (i.e., percentage of quality time to total time).

RapDaddyo said:

As Andy's chart shows, your current numbers are average for Cat5, but the more important question is, "How are you responding to training?" I'm not really familiar with Friel's terminology, so I don't know how many minutes you're getting each week at the power/duration combos that result in increased power (e.g., L4 & L5 in Andy Coggan's schema). If you're riding at the equivalent of L4 or L5 efforts, the question is, "Why not?" If you are riding at the equivalent of L4 or L5, the question is, "Are you seeing any increase in power from week to week?" You're allocating enough training time per week to improve your power. The question is whether you are using your training time efficiently (i.e., percentage of quality time to total time).

during the 1st build period, i focus on L4 efforts. then build 2 is the same focus, but more time. specifically i will do 3X10 min intervals with 10min between sets. i do this twice a week. also, i do a 3X10min (equal rest time) doing climbing repeats at about 6% grade at L4. so overall, i do 3 sessions a week involving L4 efforts. as far as responding to training and seeing an increase in power, not so good. i believe it is because i am not doing enough. i remember coming home last year and then being fatigued the next day. this time i feel recovered enough to do it over again without difficulty! usually if i have 2.5 hours scheduled for a day, ill do my intervals first (or BT workout), then the remaining time is a good endurance ride. 70-75% max HR. however, because im not seeing a slow increase in power and i feel very good the next day, i am considering adding more time to the BT workouts. last year at my peak, my FTP was 225 W (which was the average of 2 40K time trials). now i can do a 10min effort at about 230 watts and i havnt even "hammered" the L4 zone yet. what does everyone think? a good increase in power over a season is...? for example, if i peak in august at 245 watts, is that a good increase? is it typical? or is it outstanding? let me know

vio765 said:

during the 1st build period, i focus on L4 efforts. then build 2 is the same focus, but more time. specifically i will do 3X10 min intervals with 10min between sets. i do this twice a week. also, i do a 3X10min (equal rest time) doing climbing repeats at about 6% grade at L4. so overall, i do 3 sessions a week involving L4 efforts. as far as responding to training and seeing an increase in power, not so good. i believe it is because i am not doing enough. i remember coming home last year and then being fatigued the next day. this time i feel recovered enough to do it over again without difficulty! usually if i have 2.5 hours scheduled for a day, ill do my intervals first (or BT workout), then the remaining time is a good endurance ride. 70-75% max HR. however, because im not seeing a slow increase in power and i feel very good the next day, i am considering adding more time to the BT workouts. last year at my peak, my FTP was 225 W (which was the average of 2 40K time trials). now i can do a 10min effort at about 230 watts and i havnt even "hammered" the L4 zone yet. what does everyone think? a good increase in power over a season is...? for example, if i peak in august at 245 watts, is that a good increase? is it typical? or is it outstanding? let me know

I don't want to get into a debate about Friel's training methods, but my reactions to your current regimen are two: (1) you are doing your L4 intervals at the low end of the duration spectrum and I think most of us do them at the mid- to upper-end of the spectrum for maximum FT improvement, so long as we don't have to drop our power to <91%FT; and (2) your training sessions are relatively "inefficient," meaning that your ratio of quality time (L4 and above) to total time is relatively low. I don't have any idea what your potential is (and I doubt anybody can tell you that), but I do feel you are not getting as much benefit out of your time in the saddle as you could. Personally, I target a minimum of 3 hrs/wk of "quality" minutes (L4 and above) if I am trying to increase my power. It sounds as though you are getting about half that.

vio765 said:

i believe it is because i am not doing enough. i remember coming home last year and then being fatigued the next day. this time i feel recovered enough to do it over again without difficulty!

I'd say that's characteristic of Friel's "base" period. You're just now starting up the hill, so to speak, with "build". When are your target races?

frenchyge said:

I'd say that's characteristic of Friel's "base" period.

Agree. Especially if you added extra basework, you have a big base, no speed. Now you have all of this fitness, so move into Build (do a full 8 week phase) focussing on your limiters (FT for most of us).

frenchyge said:

I'd say that's characteristic of Friel's "base" period. You're just now starting up the hill, so to speak, with "build". When are your target races?

i want to to peak around mid-august. there is a road race, a crit, and a local time trial that fall into this period (coincidently) that i want to do my best for. but between now and then, i would like do complete about 8 crits, 3 TTs, and a one or two road races.

RapDaddyo said:

I don't want to get into a debate about Friel's training methods, but my reactions to your current regimen are two: (1) you are doing your L4 intervals at the low end of the duration spectrum and I think most of us do them at the mid- to upper-end of the spectrum for maximum FT improvement, so long as we don't have to drop our power to <91%FT; and (2) your training sessions are relatively "inefficient," meaning that your ratio of quality time (L4 and above) to total time is relatively low. I don't have any idea what your potential is (and I doubt anybody can tell you that), but I do feel you are not getting as much benefit out of your time in the saddle as you could. Personally, I target a minimum of 3 hrs/wk of "quality" minutes (L4 and above) if I am trying to increase my power. It sounds as though you are getting about half that.

i notice that when im doing my L4 efforts, in terms of HR and power, i am at lactate threshold. however, when i am DOING the effort, i focus mainly on technique and RPE. i dont want to expend time and energy looking at my instruments. but more to the point, if i am spending 12.5 hours a week in training, about how many hours would you assign to L4 training?

vio765 said:

i want to to peak around mid-august. there is a road race, a crit, and a local time trial that fall into this period (coincidently) that i want to do my best for. but between now and then, i would like do complete about 8 crits, 3 TTs, and a one or two road races.

I'd say you're on track for an August peak.

vio765 said:

i notice that when im doing my L4 efforts, in terms of HR and power, i am at lactate threshold. however, when i am DOING the effort, i focus mainly on technique and RPE. i dont want to expend time and energy looking at my instruments.

I assume you mean functional threshold 😕, but I think I get your point.

vio765 said:

but more to the point, if i am spending 12.5 hours a week in training, about how many hours would you assign to L4 training?

This is dependent on a lot of things. Rapdaddyos suggestion (and it's a good one) will probably be in the range of 3-6 hours of zones 4-7. Another good one might be 10 hours of mid l3-low l4. All the training levels that focus on threshold (mid l2-l4) accomplish the same thing, it's just an intensity/duration tradeoff.

whoawhoa said:

I assume you mean functional threshold 😕, but I think I get your point.

This is dependent on a lot of things. Rapdaddyos suggestion (and it's a good one) will probably be in the range of 3-6 hours of zones 4-7. Another good one might be 10 hours of mid l3-low l4. All the training levels that focus on threshold (mid l2-l4) accomplish the same thing, it's just an intensity/duration tradeoff.

i am wondering about overloading myself, though. i could mentally handle the stress; like most cyclist, i operate well under stress. however if im spending that much time at or near my LT, wont my body eventually be overtrained? however, i can fit more sets in my training. like if i have a day of L4 training, i should try 4X10min then add more time? i think i get what y'all are saying.

vio765 said:

i notice that when im doing my L4 efforts, in terms of HR and power, i am at lactate threshold. however, when i am DOING the effort, i focus mainly on technique and RPE. i dont want to expend time and energy looking at my instruments. but more to the point, if i am spending 12.5 hours a week in training, about how many hours would you assign to L4 training?

I train between 12-15 hrs/wk and put in a average total of around 3 hrs L4 time (3x15's, 2x20's, 4x10's, etc. on the flats) This doesn't include races, climbing, or time that happens to fall in L4 while cruising around.

FWIW, I think you can improve more than 15 watts before August. But you might have a better shot at it if you do pay attention to your PM vs. relying on RPE during L4 intervals.

RapDaddyo said:

I don't want to get into a debate about Friel's training methods, but my reactions to your current regimen are two: (1) you are doing your L4 intervals at the low end of the duration spectrum and I think most of us do them at the mid- to upper-end of the spectrum for maximum FT improvement, so long as we don't have to drop our power to <91%FT; and (2) your training sessions are relatively "inefficient," meaning that your ratio of quality time (L4 and above) to total time is relatively low. I don't have any idea what your potential is (and I doubt anybody can tell you that), but I do feel you are not getting as much benefit out of your time in the saddle as you could. Personally, I target a minimum of 3 hrs/wk of "quality" minutes (L4 and above) if I am trying to increase my power. It sounds as though you are getting about half that.

I had a thread related to a plateau. I have been following Joe F's methods. and frankly, I have begun to doubt many of his concepts. I have been doing exactly the 10 minute cruise intervals with no significant improvements in the FT area. I have now switched to a very simple thinking mode and making a plan of my own. I listed all of the various systems used by timeframe...
eg.
5 secs - neuromuscular power
1 min - anaerobic capacity
5 min - maximal oxygen uptake (VO2max)
20 min cruise under LT - functional threshold power - lactate threshold (LT)
I have yet to work on finding my max speed numbers for each(RD's suggestion since I dont have a PM and I do them on a trainer) and then will proceed to work on the areas I am weak. Not saying Joe F is an idiot, I just feel his method os very lengthy and time consuming. Its not the most optimal usage of time for people with limited time.

netscriber said:

I had a thread related to a plateau. I have been following Joe F's methods. and frankly, I have begun to doubt many of his concepts. I have been doing exactly the 10 minute cruise intervals with no significant improvements in the FT area. I have now switched to a very simple thinking mode and making a plan of my own. I listed all of the various systems used by timeframe...

Please don't take my comments above about Friel's training protocols as criticism or skepticism. More like ignorance. I just haven't studied them whereas I have studied Andy's and Ric's schemas and have equal confidence in them both.

netscriber said:

eg.
5 secs - neuromuscular power
1 min - anaerobic capacity
5 min - maximal oxygen uptake (VO2max)
20 min cruise under LT - functional threshold power - lactate threshold (LT)
I have yet to work on finding my max speed numbers for each (RD's suggestion since I dont have a PM and I do them on a trainer) and then will proceed to work on the areas I am weak. Not saying Joe F is an idiot, I just feel his method os very lengthy and time consuming. Its not the most optimal usage of time for people with limited time.

I think these are good single durations to develop benchmarks for. You could probably go out to ~30secs with the neuromuscular power benchmark, but I wouldn't go longer than that. You could do the AC benchmark anywhere from 1-3 mins. The 5min VO2MAX benchmark is a good one. I'm a little confused by your terminology for the 20min benchmark. I assume you mean FT rather than LT since LT is significantly less than FT. Anyway, without a PM, it takes some work to set training targets so I think your plan of a few durations targeting specific adaptations is a practical solution to riding with power without a PM.

RapDaddyo said:

I'm a little confused by your terminology for the 20min benchmark. I assume you mean FT rather than LT since LT is significantly less than FT.

Firstly Vio, sorry if I drift from yor thread.
Umm...Rd, how is FT higher than LT?
Isnt LT the work or LTHR the HR you can sustain for 60-90mins and FT the power you can sustain for that long?

netscriber said:

Firstly Vio, sorry if I drift from yor thread.
Umm...Rd, how is FT higher than LT?
Isnt LT the work or LTHR the HR you can sustain for 60-90mins and FT the power you can sustain for that long?

One of the problems with the word "threshold" is that it is used for lots of things which are completely different in their derivation and how they are used for cycling training. Lactate threshold (LT) is the point on the blood lactate/power curve at which a linear increase in power produces an exponential increase in blood lactate. There is a related concept known as onset of blood lactate accumulation (OBLA), defined as a blood lactate concentration of 4 mmol/L. Neither of these has anything to do with functional threshold (FT). FT is simply one's maximum sustainable power for 1 hour, which is the basis for all of Andy's training levels. IIRC, LT power can typically be sustained for 2-3 hours versus FT which is by definition 1 hr power. In reality, unless you're just curious, there's no reason to know your LT. It is neither a performance limiter nor the best benchmark for setting training power levels (although I'm sure some disagree with this statement, just as there are those who swear by HR).

RapDaddyo said:

...LT power can typically be sustained for 2-3 hours versus FT which is by definition 1 hr power...

Oh :eek: now I know why once I could ride for almost 3hrs at my LTHR.
God, its 10.44pm PST here and I am getting responses?? Get a life guys...😄 I am learning by the hour since the last 6 months!!

netscriber said:

Oh :eek: now I know why once I could ride for almost 3hrs at my LTHR.

I dunno, if your going by Friel, you shouldn't be able to ride at LTHR for 3hrs. IIRC, Friel's protocol for determining LTHR is a 30' race-effort TT, then take the avg HR for the last 20'. By definition, power at this HR should be unsustainable beyond 30'. (all usual caveats re: unreliability of HR apply.)

Friel's LTHR is roughly equivalent to HR at 4 mmol/l not that *other* LTHR, the one which marks the first deflection point from baseline lactate levels and at which you could indeed ride for 2 to 3 hrs. If I'm not mistaken, Friel's LTHR is designed to beequivalent to the LT to which Coggan refers on http://www.cyclingpeakssoftware.com/threshold.html

Confusing, eh? While it is true in the strictest sense that lactate levels may not have anything to do with sustainable power, in my own case:
power at 4mmol/l lactate
= max avg power I can routinely produce during flat 2x20's
= 5-10w less than max avg power for 30' climb (like many people, I find it a bit easier to hold a higher avg power on sustained climbs.)
I've yet to race a 60' TT but have a hunch it will be pretty close to the same # as well. 😉

Finally, if I were in your shoes and had to pick between HR and speed to determine my interval efforts, I'd pick HR. While it's highly variable, it is less highly variable than speed (unless you are doing 100% of your training inside, in which case speed might win.)

peterpen said:

Friel's LTHR is roughly equivalent to HR at 4 mmol/l not that *other* LTHR, the one which marks the first deflection point from baseline lactate levels and at which you could indeed ride for 2 to 3 hrs. If I'm not mistaken, Friel's LTHR is designed to beequivalent to the LT to which Coggan refers on cyclingpeakssoftware.comthreshold.htmlOpen ↗

Replace 4mmol/l with MLSS (maximum lactate steady state). A lot of people seem to have their deflection point at 4mmol/l, but not all. There is a wide variation in MLSS. Mine is just above 4mmol, but a friend's is close to 7.

Quoted post said:

Confusing, eh? While it is true in the strictest sense that lactate levels may not have anything to do with sustainable power, in my own case:
power at 4mmol/l lactate
= max avg power I can routinely produce during flat 2x20's
= 5-10w less than max avg power for 30' climb (like many people, I find it a bit easier to hold a higher avg power on sustained climbs.)
I've yet to race a 60' TT but have a hunch it will be pretty close to the same # as well. 😉

For most people power at MLSS will equate with all those conditions. It may or may not be at 4mmol though.

Scott